Post-Game Talk: Caps @ Pens - Game 6. Win and come home (or, just come home)(pt2)Mod warning in OP

[BTCG]

There isn't an ounce of truth in the bolded part. None.

I examine the whole thing, and I've said many times there are other flaws. Its all been hashed to death on here so I've got little to add about things like Kuzy disappearing or Orpik's brain farts. That collective noise is this years excuse. Slightly different noise than last years excuse, or the years before that. There's always an excuse, and never enough real examination of the core. We used to examine the core, when it had Sasha and Mike Green, and we ran them out of town. But we refuse to examine the core of Ovi and Backie to really understand if they are the guys to "LEAD" us to the promised land. Well, I'm not refusing, you guys are, so it seems.

Indeed. You want him back?

 

[BTCG]

I'm not claiming to know anything for a fact other than what the results are which are indisputable facts.

I'm stating my opinion based on what I see with my eyes when I look at the entire body of work. From "Controller Disconnected", to pouting over Dale asking him to block shots/play defense, to terrible first periods for an entire season and most of the playoffs, I see things like this and they aren't the things you see from great leaders. The team results also aren't what you see from teams with good leadership.

Look at it this way: I have no real clue about the locker room. So I can only speculate. The possibilities are: Ovi could be quiet in the locker room, its not working, as they come out flat to start every game. Or he could be vocal in the locker room, its still not working because they come out flat every game. If he's vocal, maybe he just isn't inspiring anyone, because they come out flat every game. Or maybe he's quiet to start, but speaks up in the 2nd intermission and they make this incredible comeback in the 3rd period (except when it falls short). Its still not working.

So whatever he's doing in the locker room, its not achieving the results we ALL want to see. I don't need to be in there to know, whatever is happening in there isn't working. And that falls on leadership, not on role players.

A someone who knows and respects you, I'll offer this:

Don't oversell. Sum up your position in one or two sentences, (like in post 577).

 

[BTCG]

He has his opinions right or wrong. I see him posting pretty level headed while being attacked from all sides because of an unpopular opinion.

Fwiw he's not the first poster, Caps fan or otherwise to suggest Ovy can't lead a team to a Cup. Hell I have had doubts myself for years. How anyone can see this team repeatedly fail and NOT scrutinize 8 or 19 is beyond me.

Me, I think Ovy leaves it all on the ice, but I wonder if he's a great lockeroom rallying type of guy. I've heard many sources say he's a lead by example guy, not a rah rah rally the troops vocal leader. Maybe the Caps need to acquire those guys to supplement his deficiencies? That's what I would be looking to do.

Wow.... really?

 

[artilector]

To me, the arguments that try to depict players as black-n-white "winners" or "losers" are insane. So many examples -- across different sports -- of truly incredible players who never got the big prize. Countless examples of "losers" becoming "winners" in new environments, and vice-versa.

Basically, that type of argument is one step removed from smth like -- "avoid cucumbers, since the mortality rate among people who eat cucumbers is 100% (they all eventually die)".

About the biggest negative thing one can say is that there is a handful of players who have been able to carry inferior teams to victory single-handedly. Then you can say Ovi has not reached that category. But that is an impossible standard even for generational talents. We're talking Maradona here. None of Ovi's peers have done something like this (Malkin in the finals series against Wings is the only thing that sort of registers in that sense).

At the same time, it's fair game to consider whether Caps could/can build a better team without Ovi. You can look at 9.5M cap hit for a hunter-sniper LW (with his particular flaws and strengths) and ask whether there is an a priori better way to build a team. However... IMO that sort of becomes laughable when your team is always saddled with cap anchors, be it Nylander, Laich, perhaps now Orpik, etc, and a bunch of other players that have underperformed more in playoffs.

We're talking about not getting expected rpms from a Lamborghini... as one of the causes of losing... while it's towing a 5,000 lbs trailer...

Finally, at some point a degree of realism is needed for discussion. It's crystal clear that the current team is set up for one more year in this little window. Even if a GM decided that the team needed a monumental (hi Leonsis) rebuild, he'd be insane to start it before next summer. So actual "blow it up" kind of talk has unicorn-type relevance for at least another year...

 

[BTCG]

To me, the arguments that try to depict players as black-n-white "winners" or "losers" are insane. So many examples -- across different sports -- of truly incredible players who never got the big prize. Countless examples of "losers" becoming "winners" in new environments, and vice-versa.

Basically, that type of argument is one step removed from smth like -- "avoid cucumbers, since the mortality rate among people who eat cucumbers is 100% (they all eventually die)".

About the biggest negative thing one can say is that there is a handful of players who have been able to carry inferior teams to victory single-handedly. Then you can say Ovi has not reached that category. But that is an impossible standard even for generational talents. We're talking Maradona here. None of Ovi's peers have done something like this (Malkin in the finals series against Wings is the only thing that sort of registers in that sense).

At the same time, it's fair game to consider whether Caps could/can build a better team without Ovi. You can look at 9.5M cap hit for a hunter-sniper LW (with his particular flaws and strengths) and ask whether there is an a priori better way to build a team. However... IMO that sort of becomes laughable when your team is always saddled with cap anchors, be it Nylander, Laich, perhaps now Orpik, etc, and a bunch of other players that have underperformed more in playoffs.

We're talking about not getting expected rpms from a Lamborghini... as one of the causes of losing... while it's towing a 5,000 lbs trailer...

Finally, at some point a degree of realism is needed for discussion. It's crystal clear that the current team is set up for one more year in this little window. Even if a GM decided that the team needed a monumental (hi Leonsis) rebuild, he'd be insane to start it before next summer. So actual "blow it up" kind of talk has unicorn-type relevance for at least another year...

It's really not that hard: in key situations a champion must find a way to elevate his game and insert his will.

I think David is trying to say that while AO is a great player, he's simply not a champion.

As to Malkin... the refs (I was at that game in Pittsburg) allowing 6 men on the ice for 26 seconds is not what I mean by elevating your game.

This might explain why... despite DRW winning the Cup the previous year, the NHL placed a video of the Penguins celebrating on the commercial. And that's a fact, sir.

 

[thelebaron]

I've heard many sources say he's a lead by example guy, not a rah rah rally the troops vocal leader. Maybe the Caps need to acquire those guys to supplement his deficiencies? That's what I would be looking to do.

you're not serious are you? any of these ring a bell? arnott, brouwer, orpik, mr game 7?

 

[artilector]

It's really not that hard: in key situations a champion must find a way to elevate his game and insert his will.

I think David is trying to say that while AO is a great player, he's simply not a champion.

As to Malkin... the refs (I was at that game in Pittsburg) allowing 6 men on the ice for 26 seconds is not what I mean by elevating your game.

This might explain why... despite DRW winning the Cup the previous year, the NHL placed a video of the Penguins celebrating on the commercial. And that's a fact, sir.

How many players fit your description?

If you mean consistent domination in playoff series, there is basically nobody, then what are we talking about? Crosby has probably disappeared in more series than Ovechkin, and has still advanced farther and won. Is he a "champion" by your definition?

Williams was a champion with the Kings. Now he's not a champion any more? Hossa was a loser with Pens and Wings (iirc), then he became a champion with the Hawks? Did he suddenly become a better player/competitor? Messi/Ronaldo are champions from Barcelona/Real, or losers from Argentina/Portugal? Etc.

I think in the end your side is simply linking "champion" to results, and I am pointing out that usually results have FAR more to do with the overall team than the "champion" quality of a single star player.

IMO, Ovechkin surely has flaws, but I think it's absurd to postulate that he can't be a big piece on a winning team. Let's see a well-oiled team first, for example one where more than one line can score, lol.

Another possible cause of lazy assertions is Ovechkin's contract. It could be that it is in fact difficult to win with a ~10M superstar on the wing. Maybe in part because of that Chicago won't win any more. It's possible, as a complicating factor. But then perhaps your problem with the player has a lot more to do with his contract then his "champion" quality.

I think your side is operating with an idealized concept of a "champion" that is basically a unicorn. You can have two basically equivalent superstars, see them meet in the finals, then whichever one has the better team will win and get the "champion" label, and the other will get the "loser" label. And then people spend pages rationalizing those labels as products of intrinsic individual qualities.

How many players do you think you could put in Ovi's place in these playoffs to transform 2nd round exit into a SC win? And if such players don't exist, gasp, does it mean they are all losers?

 

[Raikkonen]

What kind of leadership forced Chimera to disappear, Richards to miss 2 crucial open nets twice in a series and Williams to go full dumb in simple things throughout the playoffs this Spring?

Was it Ovechkin who influenced Orpik to get suspension and another crucial 2+2 in game six?

4th line caliber players: Winnik was fine, Wilson was ok (while not as effective as some expected probably), Beagle was god, Richards was good defensively and nothing offensively (and it's hardly on anybody other than himself).

3rd line: Chimera was absent (that's hardly on Ovi), Johansson was doing his part rather successfully, even after the injury.

2nd line: Bura failed, Kuzy failed, Williams failed largely.

1st line: they were good.

So who killed the secondary scoring, Barry Trotz or Alex Ovechkin? Or maybe Bura and Kuzy were just not prepared enough to be impact players?

Same with the D.
Top-3 were fine.
Orpik was Orpik and a bit worse at times.

Orlov, Schmidt, Weber and Chorney were ruined by Ovechkin's leadership. Yep. But did they play at sufficient level previously under some other captain leader? Are they capable at all?

To summarize.

2 categories failed: very experienced players who were supposed to help and very inexperienced players (like how many playoff games Orlov/Schmidt/Chorney/Weber collectively had?).

Bura and Kuz stand out because expectations and skill level. But they are soft young euros, not built for that kind of games in the first place. Trotz should have changed lines to distribute them earlier, we could have got different results.

I bet it's more on Trotz than on Ovi. But it's possible leadership wasn't strong, I just can't show any evidence it was good because I don't get into the locker room.


Btw, take a look at some rosters.

see full sized

Bottom line: I don't get the impression we were better on paper. And we lost in close series, even if outplayed by a healthy margin.

 

[stanleycaps18]

The team could have just as easily won any of the games it lost in the Pitt series. There were four or five chances in the last PP and OT that could have finished game 6 for example.

Ultimately, this team, without Alzner, wasn't going to be a Cup champion, so as the cards lay, it is what it is. Major disappointment, but I think this group can do it, and lord knows they will be ****ing motivated next season.

I am good with the tinked this off season and let it roll next year. A stronger Kuzya and Bura with a shored up bottom 6 and bottom pair (with Orpik parked as a 5/6) should be fine.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

you're not serious are you? any of these ring a bell? arnott, brouwer, orpik, mr game 7?

Orpik's leadership has been heralded by his D peers. For whatever the reasons, the others didn't/haven't been the right mix. I never saw Arnott as more than a washed up bit player by the time he got here. Williams, nice add, but apparently something is still missing isn't it? Brouwer, run out of town only to come up big (so far) when gone.

 

[Mackinnonen]

I have a hard time taking people serious who blame 8 or 19.

Bottom line is, Kuzy's performance was sad and it killed the team.

 

[Raikkonen]

Orpik's leadership has been heralded by his D peers. For whatever the reasons, the others didn't/haven't been the right mix. I never saw Arnott as more than a washed up bit player by the time he got here. Williams, nice add, but apparently something is still missing isn't it? Brouwer, run out of town only to come up big (so far) when gone.

We all knew Brouwer is bad top-6 skill RW and good middle-6 power forward. I don't think there was serious problem with Troy's leadership.

Also, sample size. I bet he will cool down a bit.

 

[twabby]

Orpik is tangibly a bad leader because good leaders don't get suspended for 3 games and immediately take a dumb double minor upon returning. Stop with this intangible nonsense.

 

[Raikkonen]

Orpik is tangibly a bad leader because good leaders don't get suspended for 3 games and immediately take a dumb double minor upon returning. Stop with this intangible nonsense.

His 2+2 wasn't dumb. Unlucky play. Tumbled with Hornqvist and didn't control the stick in the Letank-vs-Stalberg fashion. **** happens.

I mean, I don't defend Orpik. He let us down. But really, I bet his influence got us the top-3 Dmen we have seen as stalwarts. We expected him to be brought for just that. Show younger players the way to be a pro, be a leader and so on.

Individually he is in decline. As walking intangibles - nope.

I see him as a player like Carles Puyol. You just need those guys even if they aren't so good anymore.

We could be better without if we had such a player previously, but we didn't and he filled a void.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Orpik's leadership has been heralded by his D peers. For whatever the reasons, the others didn't/haven't been the right mix. I never saw Arnott as more than a washed up bit player by the time he got here. Williams, nice add, but apparently something is still missing isn't it? Brouwer, run out of town only to come up big (so far) when gone.

It doesnt matter what people have said in the press.

If Brooks Laich didn't single out Orpik's leadership at a paid corporate appearance at a steakhouse then he can't win a championship. The one he won in Pittsburgh was a mistake.

 

[g00n]

Yeah Orpik ****ed up but where's the same level of criticism for Orlov and Chorney? Seems like a convenient blind spot.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Yeah Orpik ****ed up but where's the same level of criticism for Orlov and Chorney? Seems like a convenient blind spot.

It's very convenient to blame Orpik and give a free pass to Orlov. You know those stats....but but but....he's awesome when he's not serving pizzas to the opposition.

Orpik has assumed the whipping boy post.

 

[twabby]

Orpik makes $5.5M against the cap and screwed the Capitals over for 4 games this series. Orlov's play was bad, but he was expected to get third pairing minutes and no PK time and instead was thrust into top 4 and even PK duty due in no small part to Orpik. Same with Chorney (who was expected to be a 7D and paid accordingly). Also the Caps are stuck with him for 3 more years unless they dump him, all while his on ice skills have eroded and will continue to erode. There's a reason he's the whipping boy: he's a drain on the team on the ice as well as with respect to the salary cap.

And please do not assume Carlson, Alzner, and Niskanen's play have anything to do with Orpik's leadership. It's an insult to the work ethic and talent they possess in addition to the efforts of the coaching staff. I can just as easily say Orlov and Schmidt's play fell off because Orpik returned to the lineup and blame him for that and it would be just as valid as claiming his leadership affected the other players in a positive way.

 

[Langway]

Yeah Orpik ****ed up but where's the same level of criticism for Orlov and Chorney? Seems like a convenient blind spot.

Or Weber or Schmidt. They all pretty much sucked. Can Reirden really be a head coach in waiting if all of the 4-8 options turned into pumpkins?

While Orpik might be a boon as far as the weight room and strength training in general we haven't really seen that when it comes Kuznetsov or Burakovsky. I don't think anyone can argue that he's not drastically overpaid. It happens...NYR has Girardi and Staal. Nonetheless, it was a poor signing at the time from a decision-making and valuation standpoint and it probably isn't going to be redeemed in the following three years. It may only get worse, especially if they continue to believe (somewhat ala Erskine at one point) that he's a top four defenseman just because they really value his style above overall effectiveness.

 

[Calicaps]

Orpik makes $5.5M against the cap and screwed the Capitals over for 4 games this series. Orlov's play was bad, but he was expected to get third pairing minutes and no PK time and instead was thrust into top 4 and even PK duty due in no small part to Orpik. Same with Chorney (who was expected to be a 7D and paid accordingly). Also the Caps are stuck with him for 3 more years unless they dump him, all while his on ice skills have eroded and will continue to erode. There's a reason he's the whipping boy: he's a drain on the team on the ice as well as with respect to the salary cap.

And please do not assume Carlson, Alzner, and Niskanen's play have anything to do with Orpik's leadership. It's an insult to the work ethic and talent they possess in addition to the efforts of the coaching staff. I can just as easily say Orlov and Schmidt's play fell off because Orpik returned to the lineup and blame him for that and it would be just as valid as claiming his leadership affected the other players in a positive way.

Except for, you know, the things they've said themselves about his leadership, about being motivated by his example to play better, about not wanting to disappoint him because he's a mentor. Even Kuzy has written about him as an important influence.

 

[g00n]

Except for, you know, the things they've said themselves about his leadership, about being motivated by his example to play better, about not wanting to disappoint him because he's a mentor. Even Kuzy has written about him as an important influence.

None of that counts because stats.

 

[twabby]

There's absolutely no evidence that his presence has made those players any better despite the nice quotes about him. When prompted about him by the media of course his teammates are going to say nice things.

Ask the teammates of Rob Scuderi and Dan Girardi how they feel about them and they will (and have) said glowing things. They are still 2 of the worst players in the NHL.

 

[DCRedhawk21]

Orpik is signed to a $5.5 million contract for three more years, plays in the top 4, is expected to be a leader on the defense. I was someone who quasi-defended the Orpik acquisition - acknowledging that he was overpaid - but brought veteran experience and presence to the top 4 that they previously lacked. But he played very poorly and there is no way around it. He took dumb penalties multiple times and got himself suspended in a 1-1 series for three games for an indefensible hit. This is to say nothing of the more "minor" lapses, like getting worked by Voracek on his lone goal.

Orlov, Schmidt, Weber, and Chorney didn't play very well either - but they don't hold the contract, expectations, and experience that Orpik does. Their future with the term is even uncertain in some cases. It's not unfair to hold him to a different standard. If Orpik plays like a solid top-4 D-man, then the team has a solid top four. If he does not - the team does not. And this playoffs (and the better part of the season) - he did not. I don't know what the solution to that is.

 

[g00n]

There's absolutely no evidence that his presence has made those players any better despite the nice quotes about him. When prompted about him by the media of course his teammates are going to say nice things.

Ask the teammates of Rob Scuderi and Dan Girardi how they feel about them and they will (and have) said glowing things. They are still 2 of the worst players in the NHL.

What do you consider "evidence", and how can you prove Orpik has made things worse? Let me guess...stats and more stats.

 

[Calicaps]

There's absolutely no evidence that his presence has made those players any better despite the nice quotes about him. When prompted about him by the media of course his teammates are going to say nice things.

Ask the teammates of Rob Scuderi and Dan Girardi how they feel about them and they will (and have) said glowing things. They are still 2 of the worst players in the NHL.

This is preposterous. It's one thing to give trite answers about "leadership" because you're prompted by Gormley or something. It's quite another to go on at length as both Alzner and Carlson have done about how Orpik has influenced their career arcs or to voluntarily include mention of him in an article about Russian-style hockey as Kuzy did.

Orpik failed to play too his contract in these playoffs; there's no question. But suggesting that he's not been a net benefit to this team since his signing is just foolish.

It's similar to the situation with Ovi. Both Williams and Oshie--being the new guys--were asked repeatedly about him as captain and said very believable and honest things. No one said, well he fires us up with Herb Brooks-esque dressing room speeches. That would be total BS. They said he leads on the ice. He cares deeply about the team and about winning. He inspires them in those ways. If you listen to people's words, you can often tell what's genuine and what's a sound bite for the camera.

As to the latter, see: Laich, Brooks.