Post-Game Talk: Capital Punishment

[Kaapo di tutti capi]

Sure, and we have to like, not hire the same coach again. That's a problem.

Every coach since Torts has been bad at getting them to do the same things, and every coach BUT Torts had enough talent to do basic things.

The organization doesn't seem to value it. They have their token OFD and everyone else is evaluated on hitting and blocking. They're not going to hire guys with a breakout scheme. They traded Zubov!

I was not happy when we traded him, but in all fairness, the guy wasn't working terribly hard and he smoked like a chimney.

 

[DanielBrassard]

This is true.

The Giants used to draft like that. "Get the best athlete - you can teach football." Worked a lot of times.

This isn't football.

Right. I sort of understand it because if you find one of those guys and all of a sudden they are stickhandling in a phonebooth, dangling, making people look silly 1-on-1 you got Tage Thompson. But those guys are unicorns.

 

[Machinehead]

That was an attempt at satire.

The real issue is deeply rooted & probably not easily identified. Just an overall mindset that's carried over since before Kreider was here. It's obviously pervaded from end of the Jagr era til today....but the only common denominator is Glen Sather.

Nailed it on the common denominator.

That was a weird time. Jagr obviously had the skills and his teams (had their own flaws) we're really good at all these things the non-Renney teams suck at.

Are we making it a point to get away from that? If so, why? The Jagr Era f***ed. Fun every night and probably deserved to be in the SCF in 08 if not for that Pens playoff luck they always get.

 

[ReddestRum]

Right. I sort of understand it because if you find one of those guys and all of a sudden they are stickhandling in a phonebooth, dangling, making people look silly 1-on-1 you got Tage Thompson. But those guys are unicorns.

Unless I'm totally forgetting someone, I think Duclair was the last guy on our team with insane speeds and with the ability to deke the f*** out of D-men and goalies.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Also, he's talented enough that we should be able to work on him giving and receiving passes.

That's back to this organization's inability to have their guys do basic skills somehow.

Even Zibanejad, who is amazing, can't really stick-handle at the most remedial level and it's incredible to me, in a bad way.

In his defense, a guy like Schneider who needs actual work is in big trouble here.

People say "oh we suck at developing forwards, it's not the defense." It's them too. None of them can pass.

So Ola always went off about the size of our players and its disadvantages with regard to quickness, transitions, and puck battles, but this is another area that size can be a detriment to. Zibanejad is a big, lanky dude and he uses a pretty long stick too. That impacts his handles. He's actually got great hand-eye and soft hands, but he can't stickhandle close to his body as well as even Trochek (who has markedly worse hands) and there's very rarely room at the NHL level for him to do so away from it. Our defense as whole suffers from this; it's how lindgren looks much better than he is as far as handling the puck goes; and it's a bit of why Miller looks worse than he is with it.

Some of the issues you're getting at fold into an earlier conversation about 'heaviness.' I don't want to 'go there' with anyone about it, but heaviness is less about what you do and moreso about how you to it, to whom, when, and where, and to what end. We play like a small team insofar as we look to carry the puck too often when we don't have speed under us, try to play stop and go transition hockey when we lack the quickness to pull it off, prefer high, east-west cycles when which often leave our players too large a gap to effectively cover on the backcheck. In the D-zone, we don't get in the other teams way enough. Every other competitive team in the league runs interference constantly to slow a forecheck or a pinching defensemen just as much as possible, to give just a split second more time to a defensemen recovering the puck to get his eyes on it and handle it.

That's to say that I don't think these guys aren't skilled, but the way the roster's built and the way they prefer to play do not match. With a team as big as ours, I think what the players without the puck are doing (in every zone) becomes that much more critical in order to keep speed under our team, stay above the puck when defending, and transitioning more effectively given a little more room to make a deliberate play in your own end.

 

[Machinehead]

Right. I sort of understand it because if you find one of those guys and all of a sudden they are stickhandling in a phonebooth, dangling, making people look silly 1-on-1 you got Tage Thompson. But those guys are unicorns.

Right and I'm not saying don't do it, it depends on the draft or who's available. But like you said, they always do it.

And of course Lafreniere and Kakko were also athletes who needed seasoning when they came up as consensus picks. Just our luck.

 

[Machinehead]

Unless I'm totally forgetting someone, I think Duclair was the last guy on our team with insane speeds and with the ability to deke the f*** out of D-men and goalies.

He's had a decent little career.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Seriously. No one on this team has hands. Maybe in the shootout and not under defensive pressure, you might see some flashes, but in actual gameplay, no one has hands while in close.

I wouldn't say no one, but I watch a lot of hockey and just going off of what I see, the Rangers seem to be a below average team in terms of puck skills, passing, spacing etc. Sounds silly considering how well they've played not including today but it's just what I see. It also kinda lines up with their offensive numbers at 5v5, where they are in the bottom 3rd in generating shots and expected goals.

 

[ReddestRum]

He's had a decent little career.

Yeah. His injuries are a liability tho.

What do you think about KK? He seems to be the only that that could develop into a nasty stickhandler. I just rarely see him in positions to use it.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I was not happy when we traded him, but in all fairness, the guy wasn't working terribly hard and he smoked like a chimney.

Smoke up, Johnny!

 

[Machinehead]

And don't get me wrong.

We sit here and yell about the margins, but we're very much in a PDO hole right now and will be extremely hard to beat 4/7 if hot, and that's random.

It's just frustrating because if we ever got the most out of Panarin, Kakko, and Lafreniere at the same time, we'd have a window where we could win Cups; plural.

That's why I'm always mad about not developing/improving skills.

 

[DanielBrassard]

And don't get me wrong.

We sit here and yell about the margins, but we're very much in a PDO hole right now and will be extremely hard to beat 4/7 if hot, and that's random.

It's just frustrating because if we ever got the most out of Panarin, Kakko, and Lafreniere at the same time, we'd have a window where we could win Cups; plural.

That's why I'm always mad about not developing/improving skills.

If Kakko and Laf were anywhere close to expectations this is the cup favorite, even with the other issues. In saying that it's probably not the same team because Kakko would be making triple but still.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I wouldn't say no one, but I watch a lot of hockey and just going off of what I see, the Rangers seem to be a below average team in terms of puck skills, passing, spacing etc. Sounds silly considering how well they've played not including today but it's just what I see. It also kinda lines up with their offensive numbers at 5v5, where they are in the bottom 3rd in generating shots and expected goals.

We've graded out much better in this regard according to Vally's data though.

 

[DanielBrassard]

We've graded out much better in this regard according to Vally's data though.

Where do his numbers have them?

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah. His injuries are a liability tho.

What do you think about KK? He seems to be the only that that could develop into a nasty stickhandler. I just rarely see him in positions to use it.

Kakko has Jagr-like hands. We didn't have to teach it and thankfully, I think f***ing them up is Ranger-proof. He's that good at it.

He sucks at other very basic things. I'm disappointed that his skating and shot haven't moved one iota since he got here. You can blame the player but as we've said ad nauseam, it's everyone.

I also think (and on this one I blame Gallant because Panarin did it when Quinn was here) that for a team that doesn't particularly pass well, we default to releasing a pass quicker than anybody else and one on one attacking is highly discouraged. We never, ever go right at the defender in iso.

That takes a huge weapon out of Panarin's arsenal and basically tells Kakko to go f*** himself.

If Kakko isn't using his hands to get towards the middle of the ice, he's just gonna cycle around the perimeter and accomplish nothing, which is a huge complaint about this team.

 

[duhmetreE]

That was an attempt at satire.

The real issue is deeply rooted & probably not easily identified. Just an overall mindset that's carried over since before Kreider was here. It's obviously pervaded from end of the Jagr era til today....but the only common denominator is Glen Sather.

DING DING DING

Maybe I'm misguided, but I have some trust for Drury. Gallant is 'more of the same' in terms of style/system/approach but it was the 'safe' pick for a new GM/President.

I get playing a heavy style, forecheck and grind it out. It's how a lot of teams won Cups. We're not built for that. Colorado was not built like that. The game is changing. We need to catch up with the times.

I truly think our roster talent is there to win... our system/coaching is not... We desperately need an infusion of competent X's and O's.

If we have a poor performance in the playoffs, Quennville has to be an option.

 

[Machinehead]

Where do his numbers have them?

#1 LMAO

I like Vally and value his input but he's obsessed with the royal road. The Rangers will cross-ice pass in the f***ing shootout, so I think there's some noise in that data.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

I don't watch heaps of other teams, but when watching around the league I'm consistently impressed/depressed by how other teams breakout compared too us.
Our D can't pass and there's no structure/plan to help bail them out

Whats annoying the Fing hell out of me is how many times on breakouts they complete the D to F outlet pass and the F is skating back towards the Rangers zone.

 

[duhmetreE]

What annoying the Fing hell out of me is how many times on breakouts they complete the D to F outlet pass and the F is skating back towards the Rangers zone.

going in the wrong direction or stationary.... Rangers hockey.

Or if they're carrying the puck up ice, the 2 forwards are on the blue line standing still.... waiting

 

[TheDirtyH]

#1 LMAO

I like Vally and value his input but he's obsessed with the royal road. The Rangers will cross-ice pass in the f***ing shootout, so I think there's some noise in that data.

There's noise to all the data lmao. Trouba pasting kadri and motte rolling off a Dman in the corner are both (maybe) 1 hit according to data.

 

[DanielBrassard]

#1 LMAO

I like Vally and value his input but he's obsessed with the royal road. The Rangers will cross-ice pass in the f***ing shootout, so I think there's some noise in that data.

At 5v5? That seems very hard to believe and yeah that's exactly right. I mean I do understand the idea that public models might undervalue royal road plays, I've made the same argument when it comes to Kane lol but that's a bit too extreme in the other direction.

 

[TheDirtyH]

At 5v5? That seems very hard to believe and yeah that's exactly right. I mean I do understand the idea that public models might undervalue royal road plays, I've made the same argument when it comes to Kane lol but that's a bit too extreme in the other direction.

I think my point was less affirming vallys model and more suggesting (once again) the limits of all models, especially when it comes to evaluating how players play the game rather than what happens in the games they played.

I'll always go back to game one of the season, or the first couple games we played against the Islanders this year: this team is capable of playing very fast and being extremely hard to contain on offense. That they don't do it consistently (generous wording here) is not indicative to me that they can't, but I'm certainly not optimistic they will.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

Was traveling today . Is there any reason to watch this game on the replay?

 

[egelband]

On another note, TJ Oshie still acts like he is a 16 year old. What a scumbag.

Actually I didn’t think it was such a bad hit. Surpringly. Bad result. Not calling the spear after it being reviewed, tho…that was insane.

 

[Machinehead]

At 5v5? That seems very hard to believe and yeah that's exactly right. I mean I do understand the idea that public models might undervalue royal road plays, I've made the same argument when it comes to Kane lol but that's a bit too extreme in the other direction.

The Rangers play extreme in one direction also. We'll pass whether we should or not and you're in ISIS if you carry. So analytics that favor pass will favor us.