Confirmed with Link: Canucks sign G Braden Holtby to 2-Year Deal ($4.3M AAV)

[bandwagonesque]

Wonderful post. I don't agree with everything, but I am pleased you took the time to articulate it and flesh it out so well.

Your example of jazz is great. It also highlights a key difference between the Holtby mask issue and what I consider true cultural appropriation (like the jazz example) - nothing about the mask shows that he does not respect the native community, nor does it shut them out in any way. I also doubt that he chose the design because it was 'cool' (like the 'Jesus is hot' example). Of course it would have been better if he commissioned a native artist.

The issue I take with cultural appropriation is that the definition has shifted so far that it no longer has to include 'shutting people out' or 'disadvantaging them'. I also do not agree that only those in power/with privilidged can commit cultural appropriation - it can absolutely happen the other way IMO. Another problem I see is that that the outrage comes with demands of great penalty consequences (what 'the mob' demands).

So here in New Zealand there is a huge push/pressure to incorporate more and more Maori language into everyday life. To the point that the majority people miss the point of radio commentary because their Maori vocabulary is more and more lacking. So here is the question - should a European NZ'er use the Maori language, or does this cross the line of cultural appropriation? I find it contradictory.

Anyway - great post.

Oh, I can’t take credit for it. I’m quoting someone else.

 

[bandwagonesque]

[Edit: Oh shit, I missed the first sentence where you credited another poster! Oh well, I will leave my commendations that I included in my original resply....]

Wonderful post. I don't agree with everything, but I am pleased you took the time to articulate it and flesh it out so well.

Your example of jazz is great. It also highlights a key difference between the Holtby mask issue and what I consider true cultural appropriation (like the jazz example) - nothing about the mask shows that he does not respect the native community, nor does it shut them out in any way. I also doubt that he chose the design because it was 'cool' (like the 'Jesus is hot' example). Of course it would have been better if he commissioned a native artist.

The issue I take with cultural appropriation is that the definition has shifted so far that it no longer has to include 'shutting people out' or 'disadvantaging them'. I also do not agree that only those in power/with privilidged can commit cultural appropriation - it can absolutely happen the other way IMO. Another problem I see is that that the outrage comes with demands of great penalty consequences (what 'the mob' demands).

So here in New Zealand there is a huge push/pressure to incorporate more and more Maori language into everyday life. To the point that the majority people miss the point of radio commentary because their Maori vocabulary is more and more lacking. So here is the question - should a European NZ'er use the Maori language, or does this cross the line of cultural appropriation? I find it contradictory.

Anyway - great post.

You mention some interesting stuff here as well. As you're probably well aware, pretty much zero of the current affairs/culture of Australia and New Zealand reaches North America. I didn't know that there was a push to incorporate Maori language into public life in New Zealand. Frankly it sounds like a great idea. It's the sort of initiative that seems punitive or designed to induce guilt to some people, but it when you take a step back it seems like a simple, present-minded and effective way to bring whites and Maori together in a context that helps them understand one another. Sometimes politics isn't a battle but an argument we present to ourselves. They look exactly the same to many of us, of course.

The concept of cultural appropriation breaks down a bit when the culture presumed to be appropriated is clearly pastiche. I remember people in Duncan protesting the crafting of Cowichan sweaters by anyone other than local First Nations people, which overlooks that the sweaters are made from an animal introduced by settlers and also that a few dozen people could never keep pace with the demand for them. I think the biggest objection to the idea of cultural appropriation is that it often isn't practical to prevent it in any way.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i don't know who needs to read this, but another way of thinking about all this (speaking as a non-Indigenous person) is that First Nations culture is a resource, the same way trees, fish, and oil are resources.

at first glance, that might seem silly right? how can art or songs or languages (or stories or masks or blankets or...) be resources?

well, if you consider that 99% of the material resources that the First Peoples used to sustain themselves on were taken away, and that today this and this happen just when Mi'kmaq people exercise their treaty-guaranteed fishing rights, aren't cultural resources among the most valuable, literally monetizable things that Indigenous people still have?

and in all of this reconciliation talk since canada 150, when this happens and this happens and this happens and, as we now know, this routinely happens, but all the country does is commission more northwest coast art for the airport and give national awards to tanya tagaq and billy ray belcourt and jeremy dutcher and ursula johnson and pay honoraria to elders to perform land acknowledgements and blessings at our events, clearly the message from canadian institutions is that Indigenous people are only valuable for cultural reasons.

given all that, the now fairly widely acknowledged protocol that Indigenous or Indigenous-styled art should be made by and economically benefit Indigenous people seems pretty reasonable right?

and in the case that cross-cultural transmission, collaboration, and influence happens, all of which are good and desirable things, all of this country's arts agencies at the municipal, provincial, and national level have clear guidelines that the relevant Indigenous cultural leader(s) be consulted and, if they give permission and choose to participate, be financially compensated for their time. given what's materially at stake here, with Indigenous culture's high level of cultural capital and high likelihood of being instrumentalized (if you don't like the word appropriated) by non-Indigenous people, that doesn't seem unreasonable either does it?

EDIT: and if this feels really off-topic, and maybe it is, well this is what braden holtby is learning right now and good for him.

 

[Fatass]

I’m just hoping this Holtby guy can stop pucks somewhere near to as well as Marky.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I’m just hoping this Holtby guy can stop pucks somewhere near to as well as Marky.

He’s a Canadian boy, gives er out there, just needs to keep his stick on the ice and whatnot

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I’m just hoping this Holtby guy can stop pucks somewhere near to as well as Marky.

tbh i don't even care about that. i just hope he's does a good job of helping demko be the best he can be and is happy with that role.

 

[F A N]

tbh i don't even care about that. i just hope he's does a good job of helping demko be the best he can be and is happy with that role.

You don't care about Holtby's ability to stop pucks? If Holtby isn't good enough to be trusted then the likely result is that Demko gets overworked.

Some goalies are better when pushed and some goalies are better when he's not looking over his shoulder. Not sure where Demko fits in that spectrum.

The best thing for the Canucks really is for Demko to grab the #1 job from a very capable Holtby.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

You don't care about Holtby's ability to stop pucks? If Holtby isn't good enough to be trusted then the likely result is that Demko gets overworked.

Some goalies are better when pushed and some goalies are better when he's not looking over his shoulder. Not sure where Demko fits in that spectrum.

The best thing for the Canucks really is for Demko to grab the #1 job from a very capable Holtby.

ok i don’t not care at all, that’s hyperbole.

but i am way more concerned about him helping demko/not getting in his way than i am about him killing his 15-20 starts.

nothing would be worse for our team this year than him being a belfour here.

 

[bandwagonesque]

ok i don’t not care at all, that’s hyperbole.

but i am way more concerned about him helping demko/not getting in his way than i am about him killing his 15-20 starts.

nothing would be worse for our team this year than him being a belfour here.

There's pretty much no situation where a free agent you just signed playing extremely well is a bad thing. If both goaltenders are playing lights out and it's clear Demko is ready to take over and pushing for more playing time, trade Holtby in the offseason. If Demko is obviously ready to take over by the deadline, trade Holtby then.

 

[Fatass]

There's pretty much no situation where a free agent you just signed playing extremely well is a bad thing. If both goaltenders are playing lights out and it's clear Demko is ready to take over and pushing for more playing time, trade Holtby in the offseason. If Demko is obviously ready to take over by the deadline, trade Holtby then.

Is there a way to trade Holtby without it costing us sweetener though? I think he’s here for his contract, whether he’s starting or backing up.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Is there a way to trade Holtby without it costing us sweetener though? I think he’s here for his contract, whether he’s starting or backing up.

I was replying to a comment that proposed a hypothetical of Holtby playing extremely well.

 

[Fatass]

I was replying to a comment that proposed a hypothetical of Holtby playing extremely well.

If he’s playing extremely well, then he’s starting and we need him, no?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

There's pretty much no situation where a free agent you just signed playing extremely well is a bad thing. If both goaltenders are playing lights out and it's clear Demko is ready to take over and pushing for more playing time, trade Holtby in the offseason. If Demko is obviously ready to take over by the deadline, trade Holtby then.

ok i mean it's not like i said i hope he plays bad

 

[Tables of Stats]

If he’s playing extremely well, then he’s starting and we need him, no?

I think the hypothetical is that both Holtby and Demko are playing equally well and splitting starts. In that case, it would make a ton of sense to shop Holtby and see what you can get for him.

 

[bandwagonesque]

If he’s playing extremely well, then he’s starting and we need him, no?

Not if Demko is clearly prepared to take over. That's pretty much the only time playoff teams ever trade good starting goaltenders.

 

[Fatass]

I think the hypothetical is that both Holtby and Demko are playing equally well and splitting starts. In that case, it would make a ton of sense to shop Holtby and see what you can get for him.

True, unless our management believes Holtby will continue (under Clarke’s tutelage) to play great until DiPietro is ready. Then trade
Demko for another Horvat kind of steal!!!

 

[Tables of Stats]

True, unless our management believes Holtby will continue (under Clarke’s tutelage) to play great until DiPietro is ready. Then trade
Demko for another Horvat kind of steal!!!

That's some 5D chess there and I'm not sure I'd be willing to push my chips in on it.

 

[Fatass]

That's some 5D chess there and I'm not sure I'd be willing to push my chips in on it.

Ya, it’s not very often we are the ones stealing a great young player in a trade, like we did with Bo. (Well, we got the pick that became Bo.)
I just don’t have a lot of faith in Holtby, so I’m really hoping Demko is ready to carry the load of the starter. Losing Marky (our MVP) could see us taking a big step backwards in the standings if Holtby doesn’t play a lot better than he has recently.

 

[Bitz and Bites]

I think that with the compressed season (and playoffs for 16 teams) every team will have to platoon their goalies to keep them fresh and to avoid injury.
It would be hard to part with Holtby if its looking like we’re bound for the playoffs and looking to go with Demko and ?
Maybe DiPietro gets a recall and plays lights out but do we head into the playoffs with a sophomore Demko and raw rookie DiPietro? Not too likely.

 

[F A N]

The NHL isn't a developmental league and Demko is 25. Holtby is 31. I'm not sure why so many posters want Holtby to like baby him. If Holtby is legitimately blocking Demko, the Holtby is playing like a Vezina candidate, Demko is a disappointment, our HC is irrational or all of it. If by the end of next season we're seriously debating whether to expose Demko to the expansion draft then the problem is likely likes with Demko.

We are back to the days where having a capable 2nd goalie is considered important and you see teams making a concerted effort to limit the number of games the starter plays. We need (at least) two capable starters. Few teams can afford to throw away wins due to bad goaltending.

 

[VanJack]

I think Holtby on a two-year deal is almost as shrewd a move as you can get. If Demko's playoff performance was no mirage, then he'll be the undisputed number one netminder by the end of the season. But if he's up and down, then Holtby is a perfect guy to have his back.

But I really believe that by mid-season, Demko will be the unchallenged starter, playing most of the games and giving the Canucks a semblance of the goaltending they got last year from Markstom on most nights.

Then Holtby either gets plucked in the expansion draft, or the Canucks have a trading chip in the next offseason. Because by then, either DiPietro is ready to play or they'll hit the market for a cheaper veteran backup.

 

[JenniferH]

Caps fan here who has a second team now in the Canucks as Holtby is my all-time favorite player. I don't think Nucks fans know what they are getting in Holts. Because of the Caps' success, and Holtby's numbers in the last few years, the idea has been that he's not that good anymore. That just isn't the case. Braden Holtby is a fantastic goalie. The Caps, as much as I love them, have TERRIBLE defense. Like really, really, REALLY bad. The best defenseman, John Carlson, isn't really that great (despite the hype). He's a better offensive player than a defensive player. The Caps have atrocious defense. It's so, so, sooooooo bad. The offensive prowess of the team, and, yup, Braden Holtby managing to keep the team in the game so that the offense could come in and do their thing and win the game, is why they are successful. (There's a reason that the Caps had the most comeback wins.) Of course, what this did is decimate Holtby's numbers and make it seem like he was doing a lousy job. He was not. He was just being hit with high danger shots left and right (for the last 5 years he has been in the top 5--generally top 3--in that statistic, Holtby's net is pretty much always a big, angry red blob!) and essentially being left out to dry on a regular basis, night after night by his team.

As for their new goalie, Samsonov, doing so much better? Well, as good as he is (and he is good), he faced easier teams, the team helped him more than they did Holtby (because as they said themselves, they knew that Holtby more often than not would save their butts), and the other teams didn't have tape on Sammy. As the season wore on, Sammy's numbers did drop--he still did good, he is really good--because his weaknesses were being exploited now.

My point here is that Holtby is a great goaltender who suffered behind REALLY horrible defense that was disguised by fantastic offense, and his own great goaltending that was disguised by his horrible numbers that were there mostly because of that really, really horrible defense. I've heard from other Canucks fans that the defense is bad on this team, but you've got Jay Beagle (former Cap who the team sorely misses STILL!), and now Schmidt who is great (another former Cap who was only beginning to shine in D.C. before Vegas got him in the Vegas draft). Even with those two, the Canucks defense is better than the Caps, and I don't know what your other defensive players are like, but I'm sure you have some other good defensive players. And whatever your coaching situation, it can't be as bad as Todd Reirden. Reirden was HORRIFIC! Terrible, awful, just bad, bad, bad. So, so, sooooooooooooo bad. And before he was the head coach, he was the defensive coach. Clearly, the former head coach, Barry Trotz did his best to mitigate some of the worst of Reirden's issues, but he could do only so much since the Caps' head office was so gung-ho on Reirden.

Bottom-line, ignore the terrible numbers and people who didn't watch every game and only paid attention to numbers, Holtby is a great goaltender. The Canucks are lucky to have him.

 

[Dab]

There’s a way to go about “checking” someone, and a way to not do it. Safe to say social media went completely overboard here. Holtby clearly had no ill intentions and thus you can “check” him in a positive, upbeat and educational way. Piling on as if Holtby did this in bad faith is absurd, scary and probably a bad look for vancouver and all us “woke” individuals.
Oh, and another thing- I find First Nations, especially those in the lower mainland who I have most experience and have friends amongst, very able and capable of speaking for themselves and iterating their desires, goals and needs. They are very valuable contributors to BC, and I found it shocking how many people, in a very paternalistic way, spoke for them- and that includes the Aquilini’s!

 

[moog35]

There’s a way to go about “checking” someone, and a way to not do it. Safe to say social media went completely overboard here. Holtby clearly had no ill intentions and thus you can “check” him in a positive, upbeat and educational way. Piling on as if Holtby did this in bad faith is absurd, scary and probably a bad look for vancouver and all us “woke” individuals.
Oh, and another thing- I find First Nations, especially those in the lower mainland who I have most experience and have friends amongst, very able and capable of speaking for themselves and iterating their desires, goals and needs. They are very valuable contributors to BC, and I found it shocking how many people, in a very paternalistic way, spoke for them- and that includes the Aquilini’s!

Who cares about his mask. He apologized and the issue is done. Let’s get back to talking about Holtby’s play. This thread has turned into a big cultural appropriation and indigenous rights argument. Could care less about reading that in a hockey forum (sorry SJWs)

 

[VanJack]

If Holtby has any kind of year at all, he'll be packing up his turtles and heading south on the I-5 to the Seattle Kraken. You can book it.