Confirmed with Link: Canucks sign D Jordan Subban to ELC (Pt. 2)

[CanaFan]

Yeah all we ever heard from his agent or Benning was "we're talking" or "he'll sign." It was only a dramatic signing in the overactive imagination of some fans.

No kidding. At one point there was a post speculating that because Benning lost his spot on the Canucks due to being too small that he didn't want to see any other small defenseman succeed in the NHL and so was sabotaging the Subban negotiations. Only a single poster admittedly but the combination of a slow summer and some simmering resentment seems to have turned these boards into a bit of a loony bin recently.

 

[MS]

It was.

He'll almost certainly be the last 2013-drafted CHL player to be signed by any team before the deadline.

This went very long, and the resulting concerns about whether it would get done were legitimate.

 

[Intoewsables]

Subban is never going to be good defensively with his size. Rafalski learned and played with the best. The rest, regardless of their position get owned by big forwards and wear down. With the players he needs to emulate are Mike Weaver and Kris Russell and throw his body at everything, block shots, and prepared to be injured at any given time. The problem is, that in this conference every team has the big, fast, and skilled superstars and he'll get exposed easily.

Yup, guys like Jared Spurgeon and Sami Vatanen are getting exposed so easily that their coaches decided to play them over 20 minutes a night this season.

 

[PM]

A few interesting tidbits in Botchford's article on the Subban signing:


When he was drafted, Subban said he was “about 170-175 pounds soaking wet.†He’s now up to 185, and that’s after losing about 10-15 pounds from a bout of pneumonia earlier this season.

“My body is starting to get a little thicker,†Subban said. “I will definitely be over 190 pounds by the (fall). Probably 195. I want to play there or at 200 pounds.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/hockey/canucks-hockey/Botchford+Stop+teeth+gnashing+Subban+finally/11056479/story.html


A 5'9 guy at 200 lbs would be pretty damn solid on his feet. That's like a rugby player or running back build.

 

[MS]

A few interesting tidbits in Botchford's article on the Subban signing:


When he was drafted, Subban said he was “about 170-175 pounds soaking wet.†He’s now up to 185, and that’s after losing about 10-15 pounds from a bout of pneumonia earlier this season.

“My body is starting to get a little thicker,†Subban said. “I will definitely be over 190 pounds by the (fall). Probably 195. I want to play there or at 200 pounds.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/hockey/canucks-hockey/Botchford+Stop+teeth+gnashing+Subban+finally/11056479/story.html


A 5'9 guy at 200 lbs would be pretty damn solid on his feet. That's like a rugby player or running back build.

One of my pet peeves is when people equate 'size' only with height. Size is mostly weight, with the only advantage to height being increased reach.

A 5'11" 215 lb. player is much bigger than a 6'2" 190 lb. player.

 

[PM]

One of my pet peeves is when people equate 'size' only with height. Size is mostly weight, with the only advantage to height being increased reach.

A 5'11" 215 lb. player is much bigger than a 6'2" 190 lb. player.

I totally agree. I guess the one thing about drafting height though is that you have the expectation (or hope) that an 18 year old will grow into that frame if they are something like 6'4, 180lbs when they are drafted. Pretty sure Nurse has put something like 30 lbs on since he was drafted at around 180-190 lbs.

 

[MS]

I totally agree. I guess the one thing about drafting height though is that you have the expectation (or hope) that an 18 year old will grow into that frame if they are something like 6'4, 180lbs when they are drafted. Pretty sure Nurse has put something like 30 lbs on since he was drafted at around 180-190 lbs.

Oh, agreed. Obviously the advantage in height in 18 y/o prospects is that they look to have the frame to eventually carry the weight of a big player as they mature.

However, in cases where a short player can carry weight (or a tallish player can't) that advantage is nullified.

 

[Jay Cee]

Some people could not look more transparently biased against Benning. Still complaining after the fact after Subban signs a nice deal.

I assume since Subban is the biggest thing going he will be put in Utica's top pairing right away.

 

[PM]

Some people could not look more transparently biased against Benning. Still complaining after the fact after Subban signs a nice deal.

I assume since Subban is the biggest thing going he will be put in Utica's top pairing right away.

Well we almost just had a nice discussion on his weight. Almost.

 

[tantalum]

Can't help but think that moving Forsling who will be about the same weight and same type of player (despite being taller) was based somewhat on Subban. A little more difficult to adequately develop two of this type of player at the same time given they may need significant defensive protection?

Just spitballing. I still don't mind the thought of moving someone like Forsling for a guy further along in development. I just wish the player targeted wasn't a guy actively falling a depth chart to younger players like Clendenning was.

 

[RandV]

Both of those are Benning's fault.

If Benning hadn't dragged out the signing for so long, people wouldn't have made the Subban signing into such a huge talking point.

This should've been a routine signing.

Benning is fully deserving of all criticism he has received as he has made many poor decisions as GM.

For someone that is paid millions of dollars to steer a franchise towards a Stanley Cup, every move he makes should, and will be under a microscope.

No, it mostly was, and definitely yes.

Fans on here often forget that it takes two sides to negotiate a deal, getting a player signed is as much about the player as it is the GM. Benning's done a number of really bad moves, is creating a really bad cap situation for the team and appears to be re-instating Ron Delorme's leading role in the scouting department. Certainly he's deserving of the criticism he gets.

But at the very least he hasn't outright lied. If he said he was going to sign Subban, then obviously that was always his intent. Typically these things are very routine, if there's any delay in the signing then it's likely coming from the players side. Even if Subban went back to the draft it more than likely wouldn't be something you could pin on Benning.

Regardless though it was looking for a while like Subban maybe didn't want to be here, so great to see him signed.

 

[DL44]

Well we almost just had a nice discussion on his weight. Almost.

heh.

I'm not fan of the talk of converting him to a winger.
Referring to his Jr play: having a skillset like that coming from the D is so much more valuable than from a winger.

The mismatches it creates and the ability to turn rushes into odd man rushes by jumping up...

If his skating and speed carry over to the next 2 levels of play... he's much better served as a weapon on the backend..

Hopefully his IQ continues develops ala Mike Weaver, where it diminished the height disadvantage as the seasons went by in the dzone.

The thought of him potentially bringing his Jr. level effectiveness to the AHL is definitely an exciting one..

I remember being disappointed that he got sent back to Jr. after he scored in the Shark preseason game...the instinct he showed jumping on and hammering a loose puck home. He had a good game, i wanted to see more.. and i guess i will this summer.

One thing is for sure... this will probably one of the most exciting and intriguing prospect/training camps the Canucks will of ever had... Virtanen, Subban, Cassels, McCann, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Corrado... I hope Demko buys a ticket to come...
Throw in Hutton, Tryamkin, Stewart...

Travelling to Pentictan for the prospects tourny never seemed so appealing!

 

[skg]

One of my pet peeves is when people equate 'size' only with height. Size is mostly weight, with the only advantage to height being increased reach.

A 5'11" 215 lb. player is much bigger than a 6'2" 190 lb. player.

Tie Domi is exhibit A.

 

[Rex Banner]

heh.

I'm not fan of the talk of converting him to a winger.
Referring to his Jr play: having a skillset like that coming from the D is so much more valuable than from a winger.

The mismatches it creates and the ability to turn rushes into odd man rushes by jumping up...

If his skating and speed carry over to the next 2 levels of play... he's much better served as a weapon on the backend..

Hopefully his IQ continues develops ala Mike Weaver, where it diminished the height disadvantage as the seasons went by in the dzone.

The thought of him potentially bringing his Jr. level effectiveness to the AHL is definitely an exciting one..

I remember being disappointed that he got sent back to Jr. after he scored in the Shark preseason game...the instinct he showed jumping on and hammering a loose puck home. He had a good game, i wanted to see more.. and i guess i will this summer.

One thing is for sure... this will probably one of the most exciting and intriguing prospect/training camps the Canucks will of ever had... Virtanen, Subban, Cassels, McCann, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Corrado... I hope Demko buys a ticket to come...
Throw in Hutton, Tryamkin, Stewart...

Travelling to Pentictan for the prospects tourny never seemed so appealing!

Don't forget all the new players we're going to draft this summer.

 

[CanaFan]

He'll almost certainly be the last 2013-drafted CHL player to be signed by any team before the deadline.

This went very long, and the resulting concerns about whether it would get done were legitimate.

Disagree. Both sides expressed a desire to get the deal done. There was no smoke, and ultimately there was no fire either.

The level of concern would have been legitimate if Benning had expressed a lack of interest in signing Subban, had publicly criticized his game or projections (a la Burke and Baertschi), or had a history of not signing players to an ELC.

However none of those things was present and it was only people's rampant distrust of Benning, much of which is grossly exaggerated, that drove the extreme levels of paranoia seen in the previous thread.

 

[Reign Nateo]

Disagree. Both sides expressed a desire to get the deal done. There was no smoke, and ultimately there was no fire either.

The level of concern would have been legitimate if Benning had expressed a lack of interest in signing Subban, had publicly criticized his game or projections (a la Burke and Baertschi), or had a history of not signing players to an ELC.

However none of those things was present and it was only people's rampant distrust of Benning, much of which is grossly exaggerated, that drove the extreme levels of paranoia seen in the previous thread.

Yeah there is no disputing people went overboard on this one around here. The timing means very little. Hell, someone could have been on vacation and delayed the process...

 

[Drop the Sopel]

Disagree. Both sides expressed a desire to get the deal done. There was no smoke, and ultimately there was no fire either.

The level of concern would have been legitimate if Benning had expressed a lack of interest in signing Subban, had publicly criticized his game or projections (a la Burke and Baertschi), or had a history of not signing players to an ELC.

However none of those things was present and it was only people's rampant distrust of Benning, much of which is grossly exaggerated, that drove the extreme levels of paranoia seen in the previous thread.

Bingo. And not to mention anyone that knows anything about Newport sports knows their MO is to drag negotiations out to the end - the exact same thing happened with PK.

Instead, a bunch of speculation that sounded as absurd a the time as it looks in hindsight. There was never any doubt how much management wanted to get this done. None.

It is kind of funny though how the narrative around Benning's negotiations gets twisted to suit each case. Everyone says he's a moron that refuses to negotiate, instead throwing around blank cheques - then he's an idiot for grinding Tanev and Subban with his stupid, hard line negotiations. At least pick one narrative and stick with it.

 

[mrmyheadhurts]

This signing, and the pre-signing handwringing that accompanied it, was only a big deal if you thought Benning was an habitual liar. He said it would get done, multiple times. It got done and now we have an NHL long shot signed to an ELC. Not really a big deal regardless of how awful or great you think Benning is.

 

[MS]

Disagree. Both sides expressed a desire to get the deal done. There was no smoke, and ultimately there was no fire either.

The level of concern would have been legitimate if Benning had expressed a lack of interest in signing Subban, had publicly criticized his game or projections (a la Burke and Baertschi), or had a history of not signing players to an ELC.

However none of those things was present and it was only people's rampant distrust of Benning, much of which is grossly exaggerated, that drove the extreme levels of paranoia seen in the previous thread.

When something isn't done as a deadline gets close, of course there is reason for concern. Again, of the 100 or so CHL prospects who will be signed out of the 2013 draft, every single one signed before Subban. This was really dragging out and took a long time, and clearly there was some sort of issue (which was eventually resolved).

For the record, here was my comment a week ago :

Possibly, or possibly our management doesn't rate him and is offering him a very poor deal.

We have no idea what is happening right now or what the delay is. If he doesn't sign, we'll know more after June 1 but everything right now is just assumptions.

I was hardly taking Benning to task for this.

It was a concerning situation but we didn't have any idea what the holdup was or why. In the end, it was sorted out. Which is good.

 

[KINGFILL]

So for next year right now the Canucks D Depth Chart breaks down something like

Edler
Tanev
Hamhuis
Bieksa
Sbisa
Weber (RFA)
Clendening (RFA)
Corrado (RFA)
Stanton (RFA)
Sanguinetti (UFA)
Biega (UFA)
Andersson (RFA)
Hutton
Subban
Cederholm
Pedan
McEneny
McNally

Thats a lot of bodies. With Tryamkin probably coming next year

Canucks need to draft a forward with their pick not D

 

[Bobby Digital]

So for next year right now the Canucks D Depth Chart breaks down something like

Edler
Tanev
Hamhuis
Bieksa
Sbisa
Weber (RFA)
Clendening (RFA)
Corrado (RFA)
Stanton (RFA)
Sanguinetti (UFA)
Biega (UFA)
Andersson (RFA)
Hutton
Subban
Cederholm
Pedan
McEneny
McNally

Thats a lot of bodies. With Tryamkin probably coming next year

Canucks need to draft a forward with their pick not D

Id still draft a dman if a good one is available. Quality > Quantity.

 

[CanaFan]

When something isn't done as a deadline gets close, of course there is reason for concern. Again, of the 100 or so CHL prospects who will be signed out of the 2013 draft, every single one signed before Subban. This was really dragging out and took a long time, and clearly there was some sort of issue (which was eventually resolved).

For the record, here was my comment a week ago :



I was hardly taking Benning to task for this.

It was a concerning situation but we didn't have any idea what the holdup was or why. In the end, it was sorted out. Which is good.

By definition one prospect will always be signed last. That alone means very little. He was signed 1 1/2 months before the deadline and again after multiple statements of intent from Benning. I see that the 'concern' was more driven by the negative regard for Benning in completely unrelated matters than anything specific or indicative of this negotiations.

As for your comments quoted, certainly those are fair and I wouldn't have any issue with the way in which you voiced your concerns there. However many others (not sayings yours) were disproportionate in their alarm relative to what the situation warranted.

 

[Tiranis]

He was signed 1 1/2 months before the deadline

17 days, actually.

 

[MS]

By definition one prospect will always be signed last. That alone means very little. He was signed 1 1/2 months before the deadline and again after multiple statements of intent from Benning. I see that the 'concern' was more driven by the negative regard for Benning in completely unrelated matters than anything specific or indicative of this negotiations.

As for your comments quoted, certainly those are fair and I wouldn't have any issue with the way in which you voiced your concerns there. However many others (not sayings yours) were disproportionate in their alarm relative to what the situation warranted.

It was a little over 2 weeks before the deadline. Again, reason for concern.

Obviously some people get carried away. But that happens with a few people here for everything, both positive and negative.

 

[Ernie]

A thought: is it so crazy of management to want to try him at forward?

He carries the puck like a forward and most of his goals are scored by him going to the net.

I think often what limits smaller forwards now is not so much their size but their reach. But Subban's skills, drive, and speed could make him a very effective winger.