Confirmed with Link: Canucks promote Todd Harvey to Director of Amateur Scouting

[rypper]

I believe that Linden promoted Brackett AND I also believe that Linden and Benning fired Gilman, Crawford, and Henning.

 

[krutovsdonut]

One's on the public record, afaik, others aren't?

what is on public record that allows you to draw a conclusion that todd harvey has a dubious moral character?

do tell.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I believe that Linden promoted Brackett AND I also believe that Linden and Benning fired Gilman, Crawford, and Henning.

I think this as well, but there’s no definitive statement out there that it was Linden and not Benning. Makes sense in terms of what eventually happened, but again, the initial distinction is not made.

 

[rypper]

I think this as well, but there’s no definitive statement out there that it was Linden and not Benning. Makes sense in terms of what eventually happened, but again, the initial distinction is not made.

Brackett got his start in the USHL, where he helped build a champion Indiana Ice team. In 2008-09, he became a part-time scout with the Canucks, using his USHL knowledge to eventually vouch for Boeser, whom the Canucks took 23rd overall in 2015. Vancouver got another USHL gem later on in that draft when they snagged Adam Gaudette in the fifth round. The next season, Brackett was named Vancouver's director of amateur scouting by Trevor Linden. It was a meteoric rise for the talent hawk, but it didn't necessarily sit well with some of the veterans in the scouting game.

This season's best free agent might end up being Vancouver's Judd Brackett

 

[F A N]

I believe that Linden promoted Brackett AND I also believe that Linden and Benning fired Gilman, Crawford, and Henning.

So you believe that Linden allowed Benning to fire Crawford but didn't let Benning choose his successor?

The thing with quotes is, it's usually attributed to the guy on top.

Canucks President of Hockey Ops Trevor Linden took the pruning shears to his bloated hockey department on Thursday, letting go assistant general managers Laurence Gilman and Lorne Henning and director of player development Eric Crawford.

Canucks clean house: Laurence Gilman, Lorne Henning, Eric Crawford fired | The Province

 

[rypper]

 

[krutovsdonut]

I think you need to re-read my initial post which was critical of the hire based on resume a fundamental part of which, I would imagine, is scouting experience. I’ve already acknowledged that this could end up being a good hire, but pointing to Brackett as supporting this assertion, a guy who had a much deeper resume in scouting than Harvey, is stupid.

if i still gave you the benefit of the doubt i would have to assume you don't even read my posts. i didn't point to the hiring to support your straw man assertion. i pointed out that when your post predicted this hire is bad and "totally in line with benning", that was dumb because you really liked benning's last hire at the same exact position. you can bob and weave all you want with you deliberate evasions and straw man, but that's what i said. and you cannot answer it directly.

and "deeper resume"? chuckle. that's a desperation hail mary to try and eke out a distinction between harvey and brackett because you cannot just admit you are wrong. i mean it is less outright delusional than rypper trying to pretend benning didn't promote bracket, but it is still an absolute garbage rationalization that you are making to avoid admitting your original argument was terrible.

i mean, let's dig into it. "deeper resume" is just such a dumb lazy argument. we're talking about an entry hockey level management position being given to a 45 year old ex nhl player with many years of hockey experience. it doesn't even raise an eyebrow. you don't have a clue how able or suited harvey is for this job or whether he was the best candidate. it's just more selective analytics to support your bias now being applied to management candidates. "candidate #2 has 4.2x more suitcase scouting experience than candidate #1 and has eaten 7242 more diner meals and slept in 432 more bad motels and must therefore be hired"

sure thing.

i mean if you are right about deep resumes then i guess all hires in successful hockey organizations should be in lock step on seniority and people should never get promoted to jobs in different departments? also, i guess no skills in hockey transfer between silos. so only a hockey scout can manage hockey scouts? so delorme should be head of scouting.

i am sure this tragic waste of bandwidth of a take of yours will be repeated as a fact before too long together with all the other terrible negative narratives that have gone before it. can't wait for another paragraph to be added in the list of grievances rants.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I believe that Linden promoted Brackett AND I also believe that Linden and Benning fired Gilman, Crawford, and Henning.

Not according to iMac.
"Benning promoted Brackett to the top job a year after inheriting him from Mike Gillis’ scouting staff."
Canucks Mailbag: What's going on between GM Jim Benning and Judd Brackett? - Sportsnet.ca

Obviously, there's a lot more weight into iMacs statement than Ryan Kennedy.(who is eastern based media)

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

what is on public record that allows you to draw a conclusion that todd harvey has a dubious moral character?

do tell.

His arrest is on record and has been reported on. The other instances that you've got a hair up your ass about are, as far as I am aware, rumors and speculation that haven't been corroborated anywhere. Finding yourself in a situation where you could be arrested for sexual assault isn't a commonplace thing and I'm sure as hell wondering what exactly happened. It's also a hell of a lot different than marital infidelity or some weirdo making repeated remarks about someone having to pay child support.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Another interesting detail regarding Harvey,

Ex-Canucks scouting director Judd Brackett hired by Minnesota Wild | Saltwire

Don't mind the URL, the author is Patrick Johnston.

Buried at the bottom,

Delorme and Todd Harvey, who has been scouting for just two years, are currently assigned a “cross-checker” role, a scout who moves beyond their assigned territory to give alternative looks on players.

 

[Hodgy]

if i still gave you the benefit of the doubt i would have to assume you don't even read my posts. i didn't point to the hiring to support your straw man assertion. i pointed out that when your post predicted this hire is bad and "totally in line with benning", that was dumb because you really liked benning's last hire at the same exact position. you can bob and weave all you want with you deliberate evasions and straw man, but that's what i said. and you cannot answer it directly.

and "deeper resume"? chuckle. that's a desperation hail mary to try and eke out a distinction between harvey and brackett because you cannot just admit you are wrong. i mean it is less outright delusional than rypper trying to pretend benning didn't promote bracket, but it is still an absolute garbage rationalization that you are making to avoid admitting your original argument was terrible.

i mean, let's dig into it. "deeper resume" is just such a dumb lazy argument. we're talking about an entry hockey level management position being given to a 45 year old ex nhl player with many years of hockey experience. it doesn't even raise an eyebrow. you don't have a clue how able or suited harvey is for this job or whether he was the best candidate. it's just more selective analytics to support your bias now being applied to management candidates. "candidate #2 has 4.2x more suitcase scouting experience than candidate #1 and has eaten 7242 more diner meals and slept in 432 more bad motels and must therefore be hired"

sure thing.

i mean if you are right about deep resumes then i guess all hires in successful hockey organizations should be in lock step on seniority and people should never get promoted to jobs in different departments? also, i guess no skills in hockey transfer between silos. so only a hockey scout can manage hockey scouts? so delorme should be head of scouting.

i am sure this tragic waste of bandwidth of a take of yours will be repeated as a fact before too long together with all the other terrible negative narratives that have gone before it. can't wait for another paragraph to be added in the list of grievances rants.

I have no idea how you can be so intentionally obtuse, all the while trying to maintain a condescending tone. My point from the very beginning was resume based. The reference to “totally in line with Benning” is that it was another bad decision.

And you can stop with your strained argument that Harvey, as of now, equals Brackett when he was promoted. It’s such an obviously stupid argument that I really shouldn’t have to entertain it further. But, since you won’t let go, I will reiterate the fact that Brackett had like 4 times the experience than Harvey. Moreover, Brackett was scouting an area where we were drafting successful players from. This are was arguably our best drafting geographical area. So based on the available evidence, one could look at the Brackett hire, at the time, and support it based on Brackett’s past performance, I.e., his resume. The same cannot be said for Harvey since the situations are so f***ing obviously no analogous. But yet here we are.

 

[Blue and Green]

"Harvey and his Dallas Stars teammate Grant Marshall, along with two other men, were accused in 1996 of sexually assaulting a 20-year-old woman at a Winnipeg house party, but Crown prosecutors dropped the charges before a preliminary hearing was even held. At the time in Manitoba, police were obliged to automatically make arrests and file charges following a sexual assault complaint."

Vancouver Canucks promote Todd Harvey to director of amateur scouting | The Province

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

I'm really curious what Harvey's association with the Canucks front office is. He's not alumni, but he doesn't seem to cross paths with Weisbrod or Benning anywhere prior to here.

Seems a little unusual for someone with no prior affiliation with a team to cross over from coaching in the OHL to scouting for an organization, or am I wrong is that commonplace?

 

[rypper]

I'm really curious what Harvey's association with the Canucks front office is. He's not alumni, but he doesn't seem to cross paths with Weisbrod or Benning anywhere prior to here.

Seems a little unusual for someone with no prior affiliation with a team to cross over from coaching in the OHL to scouting for an organization, or am I wrong is that commonplace?

When he was drafted by Dallas in 93' and played there for a few seasons before being traded, Doug Jarvis was an assistant coach. (He was an assistant in Dallas for quite some time.)

That's one of the only connections I can really find.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I
And you can stop with your strained argument that Harvey, as of now, equals Brackett when he was promoted. It’s such an obviously stupid argument that I really shouldn’t have to entertain it further. But, since you won’t let go, I will reiterate the fact that Brackett had like 4 times the experience than Harvey.

my goodness. another argument i don't make.

how many straw man arguments are you going to pump out?

 

[F A N]

I'm really curious what Harvey's association with the Canucks front office is. He's not alumni, but he doesn't seem to cross paths with Weisbrod or Benning anywhere prior to here.

Seems a little unusual for someone with no prior affiliation with a team to cross over from coaching in the OHL to scouting for an organization, or am I wrong is that commonplace?

He was recommended by Scott Walker when Walker was our Player Development guy.

 

[krutovsdonut]

His arrest is on record and has been reported on. The other instances that you've got a hair up your ass about are, as far as I am aware, rumors and speculation that haven't been corroborated anywhere. Finding yourself in a situation where you could be arrested for sexual assault isn't a commonplace thing and I'm sure as hell wondering what exactly happened. It's also a hell of a lot different than marital infidelity.

i don't know about other instances, just the one arrest you cited as a basis for asserting harvey had a dubious moral character. according to the news report quoted above by another poster, winnipeg police at the time were automatically charging on any sexual assault complaint, so we have no idea if there was any merit whatever to the charges. we just know the charges were dropped. if you have some damning details to share i might agree it shows bad judgment or worse, regardless of outcome, but right now for all i know they were wrongly identified and not even involved. we still live in an innocent until proven guilty world and i sure as heck don't draw any inference from the fact charges were laid where the police were doing it automatically.

 

[F A N]

i don't know about other instances, just the one arrest you cited as a basis for asserting harvey had a dubious moral character. according to the news report quoted above by another poster, winnipeg police at the time were automatically charging on any sexual assault complaint, so we have no idea if there was any merit whatever to the charges. we just know the charges were dropped. if you have some damning details to share i might agree it shows bad judgment or worse, regardless of outcome, but right now for all i know they were wrongly identified and not even involved. we still live in an innocent until proven guilty world and i sure as heck don't draw any inference from the fact charges were laid where the police were doing it automatically.

Yep. Some places have mandatory arrest laws when it comes to domestic violence. All it takes is a man slamming his fists on a table and his female partner calling the police saying she is scared and the man is spending the night in jail.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

we still live in an innocent until proven guilty world and i sure as heck don't draw any inference from the fact charges were laid where the police were doing it automatically.

This is pretty much what I expected as a response "not guilty!11!" For me, Harvey being in a situation where he was arrested is enough to make me curious as to what actually happened. There's more I would like to say, but I really do not want to derail this thread.

 

[krutovsdonut]

For me, Harvey being in a situation where he was arrested is enough to make me curious as to what actually happened.

that's fine, but what you said originally and then repeatedly defended is that he was a person of "dubious moral character" because he was arrested.

if you want to walk that back now that and admit that you were wrong and you are in fact just curious what happened, then that's good. you are of course moving the goalposts without admitting it, but at least we see progress in the goalpost move. first sensible argument you have made in quite in a while.

 

[Hodgy]

my goodness. another argument i don't make.

how many straw man arguments are you going to pump out?

Jesus Christ. This is getting silly. What is the point you are trying to make? I’ve already clarified to you that my comment “totally in line from Jim Benning” was in reference to other shitty decisions, not hiring Brackett. And I’ve already acknowledged that this could be a good hire. So, again, what is the point your are trying to make?

 

[F A N]

And you can stop with your strained argument that Harvey, as of now, equals Brackett when he was promoted. It’s such an obviously stupid argument that I really shouldn’t have to entertain it further. But, since you won’t let go, I will reiterate the fact that Brackett had like 4 times the experience than Harvey. Moreover, Brackett was scouting an area where we were drafting successful players from. This are was arguably our best drafting geographical area. So based on the available evidence, one could look at the Brackett hire, at the time, and support it based on Brackett’s past performance, I.e., his resume. The same cannot be said for Harvey since the situations are so f***ing obviously no analogous. But yet here we are.

Brackett joined the Canucks at the start of the 2018-2009 season. He was a part-time scout throughout Gillis' tenure. If we were to associate all US highschool and college picks with Brackett, here are the picks from "arguably our best drafting geographical area" that you speak of (i.e. his resume):

2014: Demko
2013: Zero
2012: Beatie
2011: Labate
2010: McNally
2009: Schroeder, Cannata, Connauton (who didn't play US highschool hockey).

I didn't put 2015 down since by that time Judd was getting the promotion.

I would not say that the "available evidence" at the time is there to support Brackett's hire. Internally maybe...

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

that's fine, but what you said originally and then repeatedly defended is that he was a person of "dubious moral character" because he was arrested.

if you want to walk that back now that and admit that you were wrong and you are in fact just curious what happened, then that's good. you are of course moving the goalposts without admitting it, but at least we see progress in the goalpost move. first sensible argument you have made in quite in a while.

It is exceedingly strange that 4 guys would get arrested for sexual assault at 4:30AM. It's questionable (or "dubious") behavior. The fact that he would be in a situation to find himself getting arrested is what is dubious for me. Perhaps dubious wasn't the most crystal clear, perfect word to use. Would saying he's of "ambiguous moral character" make you feel better? Give a better sense of uncertainty?

 

[krutovsdonut]

Jesus Christ. I’ve already clarified to you that my comment “totally in line from Jim Benning” was in reference to other shitty decisions, not hiring Brackett.

i don't think you did clarify this to me. i think i would remember it.

so when predicting a hiring decision by benning would turn out badly because of benning's track record, you intended people to exclude the only other time benning filled the exact same position and it turned out really well.

but you just didn't say so.

got it. good chat.

It is exceedingly strange that 4 guys would get arrested for sexual assault at 4:30AM. It's questionable (or "dubious") behavior. The fact that he would be in a situation to find himself getting arrested is what is dubious for me. Perhaps dubious wasn't the most crystal clear, perfect word to use. Would saying he's of "ambiguous moral character" make you feel better? Give a better sense of uncertainty?

as much as hodgy just raised the bar pretty high with his dogged defence of a bad take into reductio ad absurdium, this one is an immediate contender for a new world record.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Brackett joined the Canucks at the start of the 2018-2009 season. He was a part-time scout throughout Gillis' tenure. If we were to associate all US highschool and college picks with Brackett, here are the picks from "arguably our best drafting geographical area" that you speak of (i.e. his resume):

2014: Demko
2013: Zero
2012: Beatie
2011: Labate
2010: McNally
2009: Schroeder, Cannata, Connauton (who didn't play US highschool hockey).

I didn't put 2015 down since by that time Judd was getting the promotion.

I would not say that the "available evidence" at the time is there to support Brackett's hire. Internally maybe...

i guess i am not sure you hire your best amateur scout as the director of amateur scouting. i think you hire the young organized high energy guy with good people skills and technological savvy who is willing to relocate to vancouver and has enough scouting knowledge to consolidate what the field scouts see into easily reviewed and digestible form. if the guy is also a good scout then that would be a bonus, but i'd be fine with competent scout if he has all the other qualities. let the really good scouts stay out in the field.