Waived: Canucks place F Sven Baertschi on waivers (Dec 15)

[sting101]

Tyler Seguin put up his career high (84 pts) at age 21/22.
Taylor Hall put up his career high (80 pts) at age 21/22.
Kuznetzov put up his career high (77 pts) at age 23/24.
Jaden Schwartz put up his career high (63 pts) at age 22/23.

Zucker is the only one that fits your pet theory.

You think Baertschi is going to significantly alter his ceiling at age 26? You're certainly welcome to but I don't see any compelling evidence to expect it.

Conveniently forgot to mention Mark Stone??
Lol ("pet theory" that's cute) may want to do your homework Canafan

All of the aforementioned players are exceeding any past seasons PPG and are on pace for their best seasons to date statistically (with the exception of Seguin who is on pace for 45 goals a new career high)

All that with more complete 2 way games.

Selling assets while low is a fools move and yes it would be smart to keep a guy entering his prime that can score at a low 1st line, high 2nd line rate.

 

[CanaFan]

Conveniently forgot to mention Mark Stone??
Lol ("pet theory" that's cute) may want to do your homework Canafan

All of the aforementioned players are exceeding any past seasons PPG and are on pace for their best seasons to date statistically (with the exception of Seguin who is on pace for 45 goals a new career high)

All that with more complete 2 way games.

Selling assets while low is a fools move and yes it would be smart to keep a guy entering his prime that can score at a low 1st line, high 2nd line rate.

Mark Stone hit 64 at age 22. That's the range he's been in since.

Those players all entered their current production range around 22/23. Sure they may have a spike at a later age but they don't do it consistently. Maybe Baertschi has an outlier season of 55+ points, maybe he doesn't. But he isn't likely to be a drastically different player that is going to have significantly higher value around the league.

He's a 40-45 pt player and that's very likely what he'll be in 2-3 years as well. You can cherry pick elite players having a spike season all you want, it doesn't change the math that they are still at the same level of production they've always been. There's even more players that have never exceeded their 22-25 year old production levels.

The rounding out of their games is irrelevant since ALL players round out their games as they age. As I mentioned earlier, it is offset by the loss of perceived scoring upside and proximity to UFA.

 

[Siludin]

His production should logically go DOWN as the team gets better.

He scored at a 44-point pace this year spending most of it on the #1 line with two very good players (Horvat and Boeser) and getting substantial chunks of PP time. No matter if the team gets better, he isn't likely getting a better situation than that.

As guys like Pettersson and Gaudette (hopefully) claim roles and offensive minutes, and with Leipsic now a Green favourite in the fold, Baertschi isn't likely to be getting that same opportunity and stands to be shuffled into more of a traditional 2nd line role. And his production isn't rocketing up by 15-20 points when that happens.

I know what you are saying, but if he sticks with Boeser and Horvat, or gets placed on a different-but-very-productive line (Pettersson's line, let's say), the difficulty of the competition he faces could also go down as opposing teams' top defense has to split between multiple strong scoring lines instead of just one. There's also the fact that with both Sedins leaving, the ice-time/linemate/opportunity distribution question is a wash - so if the Sedins aren't here next year, Baertschi likely sees more, quality ice time, and not necessarily against the same difficulty of competition. Your argument also holds the production of Boeser (rookie) and Horvat (steadily improving) constant, assuming he continues to play with them. Finally, there's also the school of thought that an injury (and returning from an injury) has more of an effect on production rates than the simple, nominal loss of games - it could take 3-5 games to feel productive again, so in a fresh, 82-game, prime season, his scoring rate could be much higher than in a season when he had two major injuries.

 

[MS]

Mark Stone hit 64 at age 22. That's the range he's been in since.

Those players all entered their current production range around 22/23. Sure they may have a spike at a later age but they don't do it consistently. Maybe Baertschi has an outlier season of 55+ points, maybe he doesn't. But he isn't likely to be a drastically different player that is going to have significantly higher value around the league.

He's a 40-45 pt player and that's very likely what he'll be in 2-3 years as well. You can cherry pick elite players having a spike season all you want, it doesn't change the math that they are still at the same level of production they've always been. There's even more players that have never exceeded their 22-25 year old production levels.

The rounding out of their games is irrelevant since ALL players round out their games as they age. As I mentioned earlier, it is offset by the loss of perceived scoring upside and proximity to UFA.

Yeah, pretty much this. Maybe if everything goes right for Baertschi he clears 50 points at some point, but he'll still be the same player.

Stone is having a better season than I realized, though.

 

[sting101]

Mark Stone hit 64 at age 22. That's the range he's been in since.

Those players all entered their current production range around 22/23. Sure they may have a spike at a later age but they don't do it consistently. Maybe Baertschi has an outlier season of 55+ points, maybe he doesn't. But he isn't likely to be a drastically different player that is going to have significantly higher value around the league.

He's a 40-45 pt player and that's very likely what he'll be in 2-3 years as well. You can cherry pick elite players having a spike season all you want, it doesn't change the math that they are still at the same level of production they've always been. There's even more players that have never exceeded their 22-25 year old production levels.

The rounding out of their games is irrelevant since ALL players round out their games as they age. As I mentioned earlier, it is offset by the loss of perceived scoring upside and proximity to UFA.

You were the one that said you thought Baertschi didn't have upside and wanted to trade him???

Why would being a better all around player not have relevance?? I have already provided context for optimism statistically that you met with your snarky "pet theory" comments.

 

[CanaFan]

You were the one that said you thought Baertschi didn't have upside and wanted to trade him???

Why would being a better all around player not have relevance?? I have already provided context for optimism statistically that you met with your snarky "pet theory" comments.

I don’t enjoy dealing with obtuse posts so I’ll try to simplify this for you:

1. Baertschi doesn’t have untapped OFFENSIVE upside beyond what we’ve seen already.

2. All players improve defensively as they age. As I have said two times already (and you continue to ignore), this marginal improvement is offset by decreased perceptions of “upside”, UFA proximity, and increased salary.


Are you capable of reconciling points 1 and 2 or do I have to slow it down even more for you?

And if I’m being snarky it’s only because your posts warrant it. I don’t enjoy posts that rely on ignoring points that have been made and cherry picking a few examples to counter a general rule. It drags out a debate that should be able to wrap up in two or three posts.

 

[kanuck87]

Baertschi is what he is, but IMO, that doesn't make him expendable yet. He's a borderline 2nd line winger, but it's not like we have many of those on the current roster. Pettersson is gonna need someone to play with and Baertschi might be as good as an option as we currently have, unless you want Benning to give out a dumb contract to Evander Kane.

As the talent on our roster continues to increase, then we can make Baertschi expendable, but he is the least of the Canucks' problems, as it stands.

 

[sting101]

I don’t enjoy dealing with obtuse posts so I’ll try to simplify this for you:

1. Baertschi doesn’t have untapped OFFENSIVE upside beyond what we’ve seen already.

2. All players improve defensively as they age. As I have said two times already (and you continue to ignore), this marginal improvement is offset by decreased perceptions of “upside”, UFA proximity, and increased salary.


Are you capable of reconciling points 1 and 2 or do I have to slow it down even more for you?

And if I’m being snarky it’s only because your posts warrant it. I don’t enjoy posts that rely on ignoring points that have been made and cherry picking a few examples to counter a general rule. It drags out a debate that should be able to wrap up in two or three posts.

1. YES. HE DOES!
In fact i will delete my account if he doesn't are you willing to take this challenge???

2. IT HAS RELEVANCE TO THIS DEBATE BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO TRADE HIM!!! value is more than stats....see Vanek.

You have now used "pet theory" "obtuse" "Slow it down for you" "Ignoring points" and "dragging out debate" as condescending slights against the facts that i have presented which are correct and factual. Engaging in debate with you is like debating with a child sometimes who turns to comments like that to incite some kind of irrelevant response to deflect away from your inability to comprehend information.

It doesn't suprise me you would suggest trading Baertschi....probably already packaging Hutton for a 4th and then calling Benning an idiot for making bad moves and selling low.

Enjoy the last word Canafan

 

[CanaFan]

1. YES. HE DOES!
In fact i will delete my account if he doesn't are you willing to take this challenge???

2. IT HAS RELEVANCE TO THIS DEBATE BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO TRADE HIM!!! value is more than stats....see Vanek.

You have now used "pet theory" "obtuse" "Slow it down for you" "Ignoring points" and "dragging out debate" as condescending slights against the facts that i have presented which are correct and factual. Engaging in debate with you is like debating with a child sometimes who turns to comments like that to incite some kind of irrelevant response to deflect away from your inability to comprehend information.

It doesn't suprise me you would suggest trading Baertschi....probably already packaging Hutton for a 4th and then calling Benning an idiot for making bad moves and selling low.

Enjoy the last word Canafan

1. And what do you have to back that up? A handful of guys who might score 5 pts above the career high they established at age 22? Jesus ...

2. I actually never said I wanted to trade him. I’ve mainly been arguing that I’d be fine with trading him. If you can quote me “wanting to trade him” be my guest.

The rest of your post is meaningless whining.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I think Baertschi peaks at around 50-55 points. Given his role on the team, that's perfectly fine. That's in line with a good second liner production, or an average first liner that doesn't need to drive the line. He's still a useful piece to the rebuild.

 

[Addison Rae]

Taylor Hall and Tyler Seguin are without question having their best most complete hockey seasons ever this year.

If you don't believe me go to their boards and ask their fans. Both taken a year before Baertschi, both were established players.

Taylor Hall was an absolute beast in that lockout shortened season and would have won the Hart trophy if Edmomton didn’t collapse down the stretch.

I watch him play more than any other player in the NHL and current level Hall is literally the same as Ralph Krueger Hall.

 

[alternate]

I like the player Bae has become. I dont think he has much more offense to provide though and I do think he is in over his head a bit when he's seeing top defensive units like he does playing with Bo and Boes. But as a solid 2-way middle six/second pp guy, he's useful.

Is he locked into the new core? No. Still, on a 2yr@$2.5m type contract, he is a nice piece. Might become expendable as guys like Virtanen, Leipsic, Dahlen, Lind emerge or cement themselves higher up the lineup. But for now, he's a nice complementary piece that brings skill and decent 2way play at what should be a decent cap hit.

 

[krutovsdonut]

baertschi is fine. i think he gets hurt a lot because he is undersized and still tries to play an assertive game on a team that does not have a lot of tall trees to take up the slack for him. to the eye test he's actually improved this year in terms of driving play, especially on the second pp unit.

 

[supercanuck]

The lack of news on his concussion is quite concerning. This is at least his 4th concussion and hopefully they are just being extra careful with him.

 

[Addison Rae]

This thread title...

 

[Robongo01]

This thread title...

No kidding I was like whhaat it’s only November

 

[The Vasili Jerry]

He’s done for the season?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

I don’t think Baertschi will increase his skill level by very much but I do think he can be much much more productive with Pettersson. Would not be surprised with a 60-70 point pace if he replaces Goldobin on that line with Boeser on it.

 

[Svencouver]

Way to give me a heart attack holy crap

 

[I am toxic]

My head is spinning

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Update is...where?

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Update is...where?

I don't think there is one incoming. I think the thread title is just factually inaccurate.

 

[DL44]

Wtf.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Weirdly enough...given his concussion history,the thread title was very believeable...

Good thing it’s false..

 

[Intangibos]

Yeah this title needs to be changed.

I think Baertschi is an interesting player. He seems not totally disinterested but not really "on" some nights. It's very clear when he's out though just how much we miss him and those nights he's on. Even when he's not producing I think he's making smart plays with the puck. I very rarely think he's downright bad, just that he's invisible. You don't want your 1/2LW to be invisible, but at least he's not making glaring mistakes to stand out.

I may be crazy but I think he could be a playoff player. He is far stronger on his skates than anyone would expect and he might do well in that type of intense environment. With 4 concussions though it's very concerning and you have to wonder if he'll face an early retirement, like very very early. Like pretty soon early and this concussion may have been the last one he can take if he can even take it early.

I hope he makes it long enough that we can see if I'm right. I genuinely think he could be a playoff monster.