Post-Game Talk: Canucks Lose 4-3 (OT) vs Wild

SeawaterOnIce

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Aren't these two of the worst teams of all time lmao


If Miller doesn't turn it around, you have to pray you can unload him without giving up anything substantial alongside it.
I know JT Miller will turn it around and have a decent period where he starts getting more engaged. He's done this crap since his New York days. However, I still trade him once the eventual turnaround happens.

The JT Miller you are watching right now is a preview of the guy you will be watching 3+ years from now. It was a stupid stupid contract from the start. You were essentially paying for this 2 year window while signing an OEL-like contract.
 
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m9

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I find it bizarre that people think they've been good on this trip or that they're playing well.

I think they are getting bursts here and there where certain players are playing well, but which players can you actually say have performed above expectations through 5 games? Burroughs? Anyone else?

They are obviously going to start winning games, but it's because they are going to play better than this. Not because they're going to keep playing like this.
 
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Vector

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I find it bizarre that people think they've been good on this trip or that they're playing well.

I think they are getting bursts here and there where certain players are playing well, but which players can you actually say have performed above expectations through 5 games? Burroughs? Anyone else?

They are obviously going to start winning games, but it's because they are going to play better than this. Not because they're going to keep playing like this.

For the first three games they were the better team 5on5 by pretty much every stat. The last two games have been far more even but just felt like classic end of road trip games. It now looks like they've got into their own heads. The big realization that most people should be having is that all the problems the team had last season are still their. Special teams are still bad, defense can't produce offense apart from Hughes, and they'll struggle to win if they don't get outstanding goaltending.

Actually above expectations I'd give it to Burroughs. Pettersson and Kuzmenko have both been consistently very good to excellent. A bunch of players are playing exactly how I thought they would (OEL, Myers, Hoglander, Pearson, Garland, Joshua, Aman, Mikheyev, Stillman, and Lazar). Horvat had a terrible first two games but has been much better since then. Hughes is the only play driver from the defence but has been atrocious defensively and looks exhausted already. The real disappointments are two of the most important people on the team in Miller and Demko. If they aren't play like superstars then this team just isn't good enough.
 
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1440

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Another good effort, another poor performance by our 'star' goaltender. The Canucks have played well as a team, they just need some consistency in net. Last year Demko started really slowly and this year it has been the same. Similarly, the Canucks have reverted (albeit less so) to trying to be a more "defensive-minded" team. Know your personnel. Their key defensive pieces: Demko, Hughes, Myers (and Rathbone) are all much better in open, end-to-end play than when tasked with structured defense.

Here is something I posted at the start of last year when the Canucks were off to a similar slow start, especially with special teams, that I think still applies today.

"[Demko] has been a middling goalie this year in terms of goals saved above expectations. Very good at ES, but very poor on the PK. I am tired of him being touted as a top goalie because of highlight reel saves when the underlying results just don't back it up. It is a classic Vancouver media dogpile both for Demko and anti the rest of the team.

No I am not saying he sucks overall, or that he has been costing the team games, just trying to bring everyone back to reality a little.

Demko, like Markstrom before him and DiPietro to come, is an athletic goaltender that thrives on persistence and instinctual saves and plays his best hockey when he is able to reign in the movement and settle his game. He is best suited for a run-and-gun style of play where he is involved in the game, faces lots of shots and typically overperforms when facing prototypical "high danger" chances, but fares far more poorly (to the point of being below average) on "low-danger" chances like point shots and shots with minimal pre-shot movement. Both he and Marky seemed to struggle with rebound control, often making dramatic saves, only to punt rebounds into the goal-front, then make another dramatic save again. Both Demko and Markstrom have had a penchant for making ridiculous saves and later giving up soft goals, often in the same game.

A goalie who is good against high danger plays will still concede mostly high danger goals since that is how most goals are scored (NST has it as 55%, or 6463/11854 since Demko has entered the league). He will just concede fewer than he should. Prior to this game, Demko had conceded 112 high danger goals out of 203 total since 2018, for 55%, so he is normal in terms of counts there.

Vancouver gives up lots of high danger opportunities against and Demko saves more than his share. The stats bear that out, his HDGSAA is +5.96 in that time (18th for GP>20) and he ranks as one of the better goalies in the league in goals saved above expected over the last three seasons. Thing is, his LDGSAA is a paltry -0.92 and 43rd in that time. These aren't earth-shattering differences, but given the hypothesis that he is a good goaltender in general, one would expect his low danger goaltending to be just as strong as his high and medium (where he truly shines at +11.07) danger goaltending, which it just isn't. He has shown an improvement in all facets of his game over time, yet his LDGSAA numbers still lag far behind his strong play against high danger chances (he sits 64th at -1.59 all situations).

I think it likely a combination of athleticism over poise, Clark's coaching techniques and the Canucks style of play that lead to that.

It is one thing to have great GSAx numbers based on saving all the difficult shots, but it seems more valuable to have a less athletic, but more consistent goaltender who makes the easy saves and gives up fewer rebounds and therefore does not artificially inflate their own GSAx.

Also, if the Canucks have recognized that their goaltender is elite at making saves off of odd man rushes and those sorts of "high danger" chances, it absolutely behooves them to really open up play, forecheck aggressively and try to trade chances, especially if they figure that the opposing netminder is better suited to in-zone defense. Not doing this has been one of Green's biggest coaching failings this season.

For the record, I think the Canucks' management has absolutely targeted players that fit that style of play. Tyler Myers is not good if you want low-event, safe hockey, but great if you hope to trade chances and create off the rush since he excels in neutral zone lateral puck movement and at facilitating controlled entries on offense. The tradeoff is that he is poor defensively off the rush as well as in-zone, but I would imagine that their analytics team liked him for his rush-offense profile enough to gamble on him anyway.

In short:
He is a frustrating player to watch, because he clearly has the potential to be a great (and maybe Vezina calibre) goalie, but is not doing the easy stuff as well as a player with his talents should. Like Markstrom, who has cut out some of the inconsistencies from his game, so too may Demko evolve and become more poised in the future, and like his former mentor, legitimately deserve to be in Vezina contention."
 
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Hodgy

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For the first three games they were the better team 5on5 by pretty much every stat. The last two games have been far more even but just felt like classic end of road trip games. It now looks like they've got into their own heads. The big realization that most people should be having is that all the problems the team had last season are still their. Special teams are still bad, defense can't produce offense apart from Hughes, and they'll struggle to win if they don't get outstanding goaltending.

Actually above expectations I'd give it to Burroughs. Pettersson and Kuzmenko have both been consistently very good to excellent. A bunch of players are playing exactly how I thought they would (OEL, Myers, Hoglander, Pearson, Garland, Joshua, Aman, Mikheyev, Stillman, and Lazar). Horvat had a terrible first two games but has been much better since then. Hughes is the only play driver from the defence but has been atrocious defensively and looks exhausted already. The real disappointments are two of the most important people on the team in Miller and Demko. If they aren't play like superstars then this team just isn't good enough.
I would add that Pods has played quite well.
 

m9

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For the first three games they were the better team 5on5 by pretty much every stat. The last two games have been far more even but just felt like classic end of road trip games. It now looks like they've got into their own heads. The big realization that most people should be having is that all the problems the team had last season are still their. Special teams are still bad, defense can't produce offense apart from Hughes, and they'll struggle to win if they don't get outstanding goaltending.

Actually above expectations I'd give it to Burroughs. Pettersson and Kuzmenko have both been consistently very good to excellent. A bunch of players are playing exactly how I thought they would (OEL, Myers, Hoglander, Pearson, Garland, Joshua, Aman, Mikheyev, Stillman, and Lazar). Horvat had a terrible first two games but has been much better since then. Hughes is the only play driver from the defence but has been atrocious defensively and looks exhausted already. The real disappointments are two of the most important people on the team in Miller and Demko. If they aren't play like superstars then this team just isn't good enough.

I guess I just disagree with what I'm watching. Edmonton was clearly the better team the last 40 minutes. The Flyers were the far better team early and late. Capitals game was very even, same with CBJ. Minnesota outplayed them. I think they've generally played okay and sure they probably deserve an extra point or two along the way but this is not a team playing well.

EP has been good, but to me in-line with expectations. Kuzmenko has been fine but definitely not in an "excellent" category.

I don't know, I guess I'm just not seeing it. If they played this exact same way all season they would end up with around 80pts and likely a bottom 10 team in the league. They need to play better to make the playoffs - I'm not seeing this "wow these results are so weird!" talk thrown around here. This was a 3 or at best 4 point road trip that ended up with slightly less than that.
 
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Vector

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I guess I just disagree with what I'm watching. Edmonton was clearly the better team the last 40 minutes. The Flyers were the far better team early and late. Capitals game was very even, same with CBJ. Minnesota outplayed them. I think they've generally played okay and sure they probably deserve an extra point or two along the way but this is not a team playing well.

EP has been good, but to me in-line with expectations. Kuzmenko has been fine but definitely not in an "excellent" category.

I don't know, I guess I'm just not seeing it. If they played this exact same way all season they would end up with around 80pts and likely a bottom 10 team in the league. They need to play better to make the playoffs - I'm not seeing this "wow these results are so weird!" talk thrown around here. This was a 3 or at best 4 point road trip that ended up with slightly less than that.

Don't know what to say because what most people are seeing is that they played well 5on5, not dominant just better than their opponent, and the numbers have backed that up.

I'd put Kuzmenko on the lower end towards the "very good" category. I had much lower expectations than most people even after an impressive preseason.

Going into the season I had them as a middling team that was fighting for lower-end playoff spot and were one of the weaker teams in that position. Without Demko, they wouldn't even be close to that and we're seeing that now. I don't think we're actually really disagreeing too much. They played well enough to win a few of these games but didn't get bailed out by their goalie like they did last year. They've been better 5on5 to start the season but have been far worse on the PP so the net effect is a similar amount of goals.
 

Nucker101

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I do think the bar is being set low even by “let’s just just make the playoffs and see what happens” standards. You hear the players/coaches/fans/media say they’ve outplayed the opposition, to me they haven’t. The games have been even at best and I still think opposing teams have had higher quality shots from the net/slot area and off of cross seam one time shots. Outside of the EP line, I feel like the other 3 lines have been outplayed by a good margin overall on this road trip.

I still feel like this team relies way too much on just pure shooting talent, both 5v5 and on the PP, not enough chances in close and they struggle with setting up and executing plays that get goalies to move east-west and uncomfortable.

I do think they’re better than their record(maybe 1 or 2 wins on this trip) but I don’t think the team is playing well, unless the barometer for playing well is having one line actually outplay the competition on this road trip overall.

The team still looks mediocre at best to me. Trying to get by on shooting talent and goaltending.
 

Peter Griffin

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I guess I just disagree with what I'm watching. Edmonton was clearly the better team the last 40 minutes. The Flyers were the far better team early and late. Capitals game was very even, same with CBJ. Minnesota outplayed them. I think they've generally played okay and sure they probably deserve an extra point or two along the way but this is not a team playing well.

EP has been good, but to me in-line with expectations. Kuzmenko has been fine but definitely not in an "excellent" category.

I don't know, I guess I'm just not seeing it. If they played this exact same way all season they would end up with around 80pts and likely a bottom 10 team in the league. They need to play better to make the playoffs - I'm not seeing this "wow these results are so weird!" talk thrown around here. This was a 3 or at best 4 point road trip that ended up with slightly less than that.
I don’t think anyone is saying they’ve played great, just that they’ve played better than their 0-3-2 record would indicate. Even going 1-2-2 looks a lot better.
 
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Sharkbomb

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The team is struggling to close the deal, obviously, but they are also proving to be hard-to-beat. One should not forget this was a brutal road trip. I'm not ready to give up on the season just yet. Lets see them at home, and lets see them play more games against the lower and middle tier teams of the Pacific before thinking this will be a basement-dweller team. I just don't think that'll be the case, I still believe this team will be 4-5 in the Pacific, which exactly what my expectations were before the season started.
 
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DonnyNucker

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That Minny game was the worst I've ever seen BB play. I assume his hand is bothering him but might as well not mention that here since I know folk here feel about him.
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Boeser apologies! Keep them coming, you have an endless supply!
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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The team is struggling to close the deal, obviously, but they are also proving to be hard-to-beat. One should not forget this was a brutal road trip. I'm not ready to give up on the season just yet. Lets see them at home, and lets see them play more games against the lower and middle tier teams of the Pacific before thinking this will be a basement-dweller team. I just don't think that'll be the case, I still believe this team will be 4-5 in the Pacific, which exactly what my expectations were before the season started.
What would you consider Minnesota..a middle tier team ?...They were probably one of the better teams we played this season...I thought the Canucks played their closest to a complete game last night..They have to build on the last two games.

Bizzarely enough, Tampa Bay also has 2 points (we have played an extra game)..as we move along in the season, the standings will right themselves.
 

Vector

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Really enjoying Cam Charron's recaps. Thanks for point him out to me, @pitseleh.

"First, the math: let’s say that 95 points makes the playoffs. By virtue of gaining just 2 points in the first 5 games, the Canucks now need 93 points over the next 77 games to reach that target. That is a 99-point pace. It’s not impossible, but it also means that they’ll need to start winning winnable games. They’ll need a bounce or two to go their way in games they don’t necessarily deserve to win, which is something they haven’t gotten yet. Those will come, but the Canucks do also need to play better, since right now they’re losing a lot of games they deserve to lose."

"I think (I could check, but I won’t, since it feels right) this is the first time this season the Canucks D has out-chanced their opponents, at a hilarious 2-1 margin."

"Horvat looked a lot better than Pettersson in this game, but his linemates (particularly Pearson) played poorly for me at 5v5, so his line took a bit of a beating in possession. I think Horvat is a bit underrated in hockey, even among the Canucks twittersphere. He’s Bruce Boudreau’s swiss army knife-type, used in multiple line combinations for defensive zone starts, and is still a threat to create stuff every shift. To me, he’s the guy you keep around through the rebuild."

"OEL had a bit of an adventure handling the puck in his own end, committing 7 turnovers on just 20 touches. It makes Hughes’ 3 turnovers on 17 touches not look quite as bad."

"Hughes set up just one scoring chance, had just one controlled entry, and no controlled exits. I think he’s absolutely exhausted and was ridden pretty hard on the road trip by Boudreau, especially since the team was down defencemen in two of the last five games. The Canucks get almost no rest before the home opener, and don’t get a two-day break for another week (after which it’s another back-to-back)."

The whole article is worth a read.
 

SeawaterOnIce

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I do think the bar is being set low even by “let’s just just make the playoffs and see what happens” standards. You hear the players/coaches/fans/media say they’ve outplayed the opposition, to me they haven’t. The games have been even at best and I still think opposing teams have had higher quality shots from the net/slot area and off of cross seam one time shots. Outside of the EP line, I feel like the other 3 lines have been outplayed by a good margin overall on this road trip.

I still feel like this team relies way too much on just pure shooting talent, both 5v5 and on the PP, not enough chances in close and they struggle with setting up and executing plays that get goalies to move east-west and uncomfortable.

I do think they’re better than their record(maybe 1 or 2 wins on this trip) but I don’t think the team is playing well, unless the barometer for playing well is having one line actually outplay the competition on this road trip overall.

The team still looks mediocre at best to me. Trying to get by on shooting talent and goaltending.

No one has been denying that the makeshift of the team sucks. We all know that. The D is constructed to break rather than bend. We have no shutdown center or forward to aid the D in this. You are going to see opposing teams mount insane pressure and get grade A scoring opportunities unless they come into the game absolutely flat.

The gameplan has and continues to be to go power to punch and try to sustain 5 v 5 pressure themselves and outscore the opposition. The lack of reliable defensive guys means we cannot commit too many forwards in deep hence why we have to get by on those slot shots.

I compare this team to the 2005-2006 Canucks team. If anyone remembers....it's looking really familiar.
 

tantalum

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Really enjoying Cam Charron's recaps. Thanks for point him out to me, @pitseleh.

"First, the math: let’s say that 95 points makes the playoffs. By virtue of gaining just 2 points in the first 5 games, the Canucks now need 93 points over the next 77 games to reach that target. That is a 99-point pace. It’s not impossible, but it also means that they’ll need to start winning winnable games. They’ll need a bounce or two to go their way in games they don’t necessarily deserve to win, which is something they haven’t gotten yet. Those will come, but the Canucks do also need to play better, since right now they’re losing a lot of games they deserve to lose."

"I think (I could check, but I won’t, since it feels right) this is the first time this season the Canucks D has out-chanced their opponents, at a hilarious 2-1 margin."

"Horvat looked a lot better than Pettersson in this game, but his linemates (particularly Pearson) played poorly for me at 5v5, so his line took a bit of a beating in possession. I think Horvat is a bit underrated in hockey, even among the Canucks twittersphere. He’s Bruce Boudreau’s swiss army knife-type, used in multiple line combinations for defensive zone starts, and is still a threat to create stuff every shift. To me, he’s the guy you keep around through the rebuild."

"OEL had a bit of an adventure handling the puck in his own end, committing 7 turnovers on just 20 touches. It makes Hughes’ 3 turnovers on 17 touches not look quite as bad."

"Hughes set up just one scoring chance, had just one controlled entry, and no controlled exits. I think he’s absolutely exhausted and was ridden pretty hard on the road trip by Boudreau, especially since the team was down defencemen in two of the last five games. The Canucks get almost no rest before the home opener, and don’t get a two-day break for another week (after which it’s another back-to-back)."

The whole article is worth a read.

That’s the thing. The math starts to get difficult earlier than many people realize. It’s why when you get American thanksgiving you really have started to settle into who most of the playoff teams will be.

With 3 point games it is very hard to make up ground and leap frog teams. A continued slide for much longer does put them in needing to match what they did the last 60 games last season for the same or greater amount of time.

The adage of you don’t win a playoff spot in October but you can lose it holds.
 

4Twenty

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Really enjoying Cam Charron's recaps. Thanks for point him out to me, @pitseleh.

"First, the math: let’s say that 95 points makes the playoffs. By virtue of gaining just 2 points in the first 5 games, the Canucks now need 93 points over the next 77 games to reach that target. That is a 99-point pace. It’s not impossible, but it also means that they’ll need to start winning winnable games. They’ll need a bounce or two to go their way in games they don’t necessarily deserve to win, which is something they haven’t gotten yet. Those will come, but the Canucks do also need to play better, since right now they’re losing a lot of games they deserve to lose."

"I think (I could check, but I won’t, since it feels right) this is the first time this season the Canucks D has out-chanced their opponents, at a hilarious 2-1 margin."

"Horvat looked a lot better than Pettersson in this game, but his linemates (particularly Pearson) played poorly for me at 5v5, so his line took a bit of a beating in possession. I think Horvat is a bit underrated in hockey, even among the Canucks twittersphere. He’s Bruce Boudreau’s swiss army knife-type, used in multiple line combinations for defensive zone starts, and is still a threat to create stuff every shift. To me, he’s the guy you keep around through the rebuild."

"OEL had a bit of an adventure handling the puck in his own end, committing 7 turnovers on just 20 touches. It makes Hughes’ 3 turnovers on 17 touches not look quite as bad."

"Hughes set up just one scoring chance, had just one controlled entry, and no controlled exits. I think he’s absolutely exhausted and was ridden pretty hard on the road trip by Boudreau, especially since the team was down defencemen in two of the last five games. The Canucks get almost no rest before the home opener, and don’t get a two-day break for another week (after which it’s another back-to-back)."

The whole article is worth a read.
Thanks for sharing that.
 
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VanJack

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Can anyone explain to me why Stillman, who's the equivalent of a waiver-wire pickup, is playing the expense of Jack Rathbone? The Corsi numbers don't like.....Stillman is being buried alive in terms of zone possession time.

If the Canucks were winning, maybe I'd rationalize it. But they've lost every game and how could things have been any worse with Rathbone out there?

What is it with the Canucks and this young player? Why over three seasons now does he sit more than he plays?
 

PuckMunchkin

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Boeser apologies! Keep them coming, you have an endless supply!

What part of my post do you disagree with?

Can anyone explain to me why Stillman, who's the equivalent of a waiver-wire pickup, is playing the expense of Jack Rathbone? The Corsi numbers don't like.....Stillman is being buried alive in terms of zone possession time.

If the Canucks were winning, maybe I'd rationalize it. But they've lost every game and how could things have been any worse with Rathbone out there?

What is it with the Canucks and this young player? Why over three seasons now does he sit more than he plays?

I don't think he is a waiver-wire pickup to the management.

I think they targeted him from Chicago and I think it pushed the price up for what we paid to be rid of Dickinson.
 

DonnyNucker

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What part of my post do you disagree with?



I don't think he is a waiver-wire pickup to the management.

I think they targeted him from Chicago and I think it pushed the price up for what we paid to be rid of Dickinson.
All of it. The amount of excuses for Boeser is outrageous. He isn’t effective because he had a minor procedure to his wrist? How is his wrist effecting his skating? Several years of a steady decline for this player and folks still think he will bounce back and be a part of the teams core.

I suppose it’s like this for most of the players drafted by the team. When Elias didn’t show up ready to compete it was Greens fault. Hoglander is a stud but Bruce is holding him back. Rathbone is being screwed over etc. it’s hilarious
 

PuckMunchkin

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All of it. The amount of excuses for Boeser is outrageous. He isn’t effective because he had a minor procedure to his wrist? How is his wrist effecting his skating? Several years of a steady decline for this player and folks still think he will bounce back and be a part of the teams core.

I suppose it’s like this for most of the players drafted by the team. When Elias didn’t show up ready to compete it was Greens fault. Hoglander is a stud but Bruce is holding him back. Rathbone is being screwed over etc. it’s hilarious


Were you one of the idiots wanting to trade EP too?



edit.

He missed most of training camp and all of preseason because of his hand surgery. That is probably affecting his skating. He was our most productive forwards the year before last.

His issue is that he is slow and the league is getting faster every year, and that he can't stay healthy.
 
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PuckMunchkin

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That’s not nice. Yes I would trade Elias. But not because I think he isn’t a good hockey player but because I want the room blown up and a core that competes harder

You are not being very nice either.

I didn't mean now. I mean were you one of the idiots LAST YEAR, when EP was struggling, who wanted to trade him. When his value was down the shitter.
 

DonnyNucker

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Were you one of the idiots wanting to trade EP too?



edit.

He missed most of training camp and all of preseason because of his hand surgery. That is probably affecting his skating. He was our most productive forwards the year before last.

His issue is that he is slow and the league is getting faster every year, and that he can't stay healthy.
He missed one week on ice work. Shouldn’t have affected his skating or cardio
 

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