Post-Game Talk: Canucks def. Blackhawks - 5-2 (Kuzmenko x2, Joshua, Dries, Horvat)

[JohnHodgson]

Isn’t this your exact criticism against a full rebuild?

I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with my posts but I actually think a full rebuild has a higher chance of building a Cup contending team.

I also believe that there is a pathway to building a Cup contending team through a retool but the chances are slimmer.

Neither pathway has a high chance at this point in time.

In a rebuild, you basically have to bank on finding 3/4 franchise players over an undefined duration (6-8 years?). Even if you do find the right players, it still may not work out... look at the Oilers and Sabres for example. We already have 3/4 franchise players or franchise calibre players. This is why I think there still is a pathway for success here.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I never said we're getting two top 4 dmen.

I literally said two quality dmen. Those are not the same things. Scott Morrow is a quality dmen or quality defensive prospect but he's not a top 4 dmen right now.

It doesn't matter if they don't get dmen through trades from Horvat/Boeser/Garland.

They can do it through free agency, college free agency, or other trades. There's multiple pathways is what I'm saying.

What do I need to admit to anything? I am simply just suggesting alternatives/scenarios other than dur durr doom and gloom cry about it on a hockey forum. I personally think that discussion is more productive and worthwhile v.s. just crying about how we should tear it down.

Just my 2 cents bud.

I think you should stop with these kind of lines: "dur durr doom and gloom cry about it" & "just crying about how we should tear it down"

At least you need to post some realistic scenarios if you are going to make fun of posters who obviously seem to have a much better grasp on what the situation for the Canucks is.

Not just "Go to free agency and fix the D and maybe our players will be better etc."

But... Thanks for thanks for the productive discussion, I guess.

 

[JohnHodgson]

If you are counting on one good thing to happen out of five possible things, you are probably okay. If you are counting on all five good things to happen, you are in big trouble.

And a full teardown rebuild is counting on ten to fifteen good things to happen.

This is what people don't understand.

People think let's sell hurr durr get a top pick and turn this around in 5 years!!

You can easily pick a Cody Glass, and not an Elias Pettersson.

I think you should stop with these kind of lines: "dur durr doom and gloom cry about it" & "just crying about how we should tear it down"

At least you need to post some realistic scenarios if you are going to make fun of posters who obviously seem to have a much better grasp on what the situation for the Canucks is.

Not just "Go to free agency and fix the D and maybe our players will be better etc."

But... Thanks for thanks for the productive discussion, I guess.

I literally posted several realistic scenarios.

It's way more productive conversation than whatever you're doing lol.

If you think you have a better grasp of the situation, you do you.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

And a full teardown rebuild is counting on ten to fifteen good things to happen.

This is what people don't understand.

People think let's sell hurr durr get a top pick and turn this around in 5 years!!

You can easily pick a Cody Glass, and not an Elias Pettersson.

Stop it with the hurr durr.

Your takes are not thought out well enough to make fun of anyone here.

I literally posted several realistic scenarios.

It's way more productive conversation than whatever you're doing lol.

If you think you have a better grasp of the situation, you do you.

Your scenarios are not realistic.

You dont seem to understand our cap situation and lack of tradeable assets.

I dont understand why you would form a strong opinion one way or the other if you dont grasp these two most basic things in team building under the hard cap.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Stop it with the hurr durr.

Your takes are not thought out well enough to make fun of anyone here.

I don't understand your responses.

All you have been saying for the past couple pages is: Your take sucks! You don't know anything! You're out of touch with reality!

Instead of actually going into detail why - you're just making blanket statements to shut me down. It's all good though - I'm going to stop responding to you here.

 

[theguardianII]

Good Lord, one win against the worst team in the league and the "this team is closer than you think" crowd is already back. Drance is prophetic.

Prophetic, no not at all. This kind of result is easily figured out.

But man, did Chicago ever lay down to take this hit, I guess the Canucks are getting too close in the standings.

If anyone has watched previous Chicago 5 games this was a stunning 180 from those games.

I figured they would win just because of a change but they sure got a hand up from Chicago, Kane looked embarrassed that he scored.

Still the Canucks played hard, no harder than other games.

 

[JohnHodgson]

I mean, the people that have been preaching “doom and gloom and cry” have been correct and justified in doing so if you look at the last 8 years along with the current outlook of the team (capped out with long term contracts, crappy defence, no prospect pool) and Frankie being the worst owner in the NHL.

Like, you can gaslight people who you think are critical of the team (because they have legitimate reasons to do so), but you are still wrong.

I know we Canuck fans want to whine and sulk, but what happened 7/8 years has nothing to do with today and the current now. 8 years ago we didn't have a Quinn Hughes or an Elias Pettersson.

I'm not gaslighting anyone.

All I have been saying for like 4 pages is that there's a pathway to success. If you don't want to accept this reality then that's fine.

Hughes is 23. Petey is 24.

Our two most important players haven't even hit their athletic prime yet.

 

[credulous]

I literally posted several realistic scenarios.

It's way more productive conversation than whatever you're doing lol.

If you think you have a better grasp of the situation, you do you.

boeser for provorov is in no way realistic

 

[JohnHodgson]

Stop it with the hurr durr.

Your takes are not thought out well enough to make fun of anyone here.


Your scenarios are not realistic.

You dont seem to understand our cap situation and lack of tradeable assets.

I dont understand why you would form a strong opinion one way or the other if you dont grasp these two most basic things in team building under the hard cap.

Again - making more blanket statements instead of actually detailing why I'm wrong.

Actually YOU don't seem to understand our cap situation.

Myers has a signing bonus that once paid out, could be an attractive contract to move. Pearson, and Poolman are LTIR candidates that open up 6M in cap space.

Garland, Boeser, and OEL are buyout candidates. Buying out OEL opens up 7M in cap space next year.

But yeah, keep making blanket statements... it really does something.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I don't understand your responses.

All you have been saying for the past couple pages is: Your take sucks! You don't know anything! You're out of touch with reality!

Instead of actually going into detail why - you're just making blanket statements to shut me down. It's all good though - I'm going to stop responding to you here.

Where have you been these past years?
The situation the team is in is very well documented.

Here you can view the salary structure of the team:

Vancouver Canucks Salary Cap, Draft Picks, and Player Contracts - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Vancouver Canucks salary cap, contracts, roster, draft picks, salary, cap space, stats, salary cap projections, and daily cap tracking

www.capfriendly.com

Key takeaways:
- EP up for a raise
- Almost no long term contracts where you can expect the player to outperform the contract
- Only 1 R shot D signed for next year
- All the bad long contracts are basically buyout proof and untradeable

Here you can get an idea of the lack of prospects in the pipeline:

The NHL’s Best Farm Systems Ranked - 2023-24 Midseason Update - The Hockey Writers Editor's Choice Latest News, Analysis & More

Just like the NHL clubs, their prospect pools are all at different stages. This piece will take a look at every NHL farm system ranking.

thehockeywriters.com

- Nothing of note coming in at C or D. Only wingers.

Here you can see how poor the return on trades on top6 wingers has been lately:

Golden Knights trade Max Pacioretty, Dylan Coghlan to Hurricanes for future considerations

The Vegas Golden Knights have traded Max Pacioretty and Dylan Coghlan to the Carolina Hurricanes, according to Sportsnet's Elliotte Friedman.

www.sportsnet.ca

Kraken acquire forward Oliver Bjorkstrand from Blue Jackets for draft picks

The Seattle Kraken acquired forward Oliver Bjorkstrand from the Columbus Blue Jackets in exchange for a 2023 third-round pick and a 2023 fourth-round pick on Friday.

www.sportsnet.ca

DeBrincat traded to Senators by Blackhawks for No. 7 pick in 2022 Draft

Alex DeBrincat checks all the boxes the Ottawa Senators were looking for in a player and they determined the price to acquire the 24-year-old forward from the Chicago Blackhawks was worth paying.

www.nhl.com

 

[Annihilator Gator]

The reality is we're not going to get a morrow. Well either got some equal value RHD that probably isn't a game changer cause we want to win now apparently. Or a potential good d that's a few years off so yes we're all hoping for the stars to align but realistically we have to just hope for the best and the last whatever 8-10 years as far as deals go, doesn't give us much. Hell this new management hasn't even made a real move yet. So as usual it's wait and see

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I never said we're getting two top 4 dmen.

I know you are not. I am saying that is what we need.

You think we are competing for a cup with only Quinn Hughes as our lone Top4 level Dman?

How much retention before Boeser is worth a red paper clip?

1.25mil

 

[RutherPlan]

Hilarious that people think players on a current NHL roster are purposefully tanking so a young hot-shot player can come in next season and potentially take their job.

professional athletes are extremely competitive and are worried about their own purse, they aren't purposefully throwing a game that can jeopardize their own career, production, and money for the betterment of the team. In regards to Blackhawks, Kane and Toews are their best players but they have already experienced all the success they need to and are less motivated because of it. They're a perfect candidate for a rebuilding team, Canucks aren't a candidate to rebuild when their best players are just entering their prime.

 

[JohnHodgson]

boeser for provorov is in no way realistic

Okay... just because you said so?

They have identical term, identical contract $, and both players are impact players that need a change of scenery.

But ok, just because you said so.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Okay... just because you said so?

They have identical term, identical contract $, and both players are impact players that need a change of scenery.

But ok, just because you said so.

These productive conversations you insist you are having don't seem to be very productive.

 

[Nucker101]

I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with my posts but I actually think a full rebuild has a higher chance of building a Cup contending team.

I also believe that there is a pathway to building a Cup contending team through a retool but the chances are slimmer.

Neither pathway has a high chance at this point in time.

In a rebuild, you basically have to bank on finding 3/4 franchise players over an undefined duration (6-8 years?). Even if you do find the right players, it still may not work out... look at the Oilers and Sabres for example. We already have 3/4 franchise players or franchise calibre players. This is why I think there still is a pathway for success here.

This is where the disconnect is. Okay we have 3 key pieces. The issue is that you have two contracts on the books that will not age well. You have one of the weakest prospect pools in the league in a hard cap league where contributing ELC’s are gold.

This team missed their window to contend whe having players on great contracts. EP/Miller/Hughes/Horvat/Kuz were all great value. Hughes got paid, Miller got paid, OEL brought in as a cap anchor while costing the team a cost controlled rookie. EP is going to get paid. Kuz is going to get paid. Demko is nice value still but going to get paid further down the line.

This core isn’t Tampa or Colorado where you can surround them with cheap role players and contend.

Looking at it as black and white as “we have a core” is lazy analysis.

 

[credulous]

Again - making more blanket statements instead of actually detailing why I'm wrong.

Actually YOU don't seem to understand our cap situation.

Myers has a signing bonus that once paid out, could be an attractive contract to move. Pearson, and Poolman are LTIR candidates that open up 6M in cap space.

Garland, Boeser, and OEL are buyout candidates. Buying out OEL opens up 7M in cap space next year.

But yeah, keep making blanket statements... it really does something.

here's the best case scenario for vancouver going into the offseason:

jt miller 8m/7y
quinn hughes 7.85m/4y
elias pettersson 7.35m/1y
oliver ekman-larsson 7.26m/4y
thatcher demko 5m/3y
ilya mikheyev 4.75m/3y
riley stillman 1.35m/1y
curtis lazar 1m/1y

that's with zero money coming back in any trades, garland, boeser and myers moved out with no buyouts/retention and pearson and poolman disappeared to ltir or traded or whatever

that leaves 33.4m to fill 15 roster spots. to just get to a 23 man roster with all league min salaries ($762500) costs another 11.4m

so 22 million to upgrade this roster in the best case scenario. this is not a team that can be rebuilt through free agency or by paying 6.75m for ivan provorov

 

[VintageBure]

Prophetic, no not at all. This kind of result is easily figured out.

But man, did Chicago ever lay down to take this hit, I guess the Canucks are getting too close in the standings.

If anyone has watched previous Chicago 5 games this was a stunning 180 from those games.

I figured they would win just because of a change but they sure got a hand up from Chicago, Kane looked embarrassed that he scored.

Still the Canucks played hard, no harder than other games.

It's ridiculous bro. There's no shot they tried winning this game.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I know we Canuck fans want to whine and sulk, but what happened 7/8 years has nothing to do with today and the current now. 8 years ago we didn't have a Quinn Hughes or an Elias Pettersson.

I'm not gaslighting anyone.

All I have been saying for like 4 pages is that there's a pathway to success. If you don't want to accept this reality then that's fine.

Hughes is 23. Petey is 24.

Our two most important players haven't even hit their athletic prime yet.

1) Despite their ages, there is nothing to suggest they will want to sign here long-term. This team has done nothing to convince them that we are a competitive team or a well run organization. There are already rumblings that Pettersson may want out in the next few years due to this dumpster fire organization.

2) Hughes and Pettersson are not franchise players that can carry a team into the playoffs (if they were, we’d have seen it by now). Pettersson is elite, but he’s not a Bedard/McDavid tier player that can turn the franchise around on his own.

3) This management group has shown they do not have a good grasp on where the team is at and how to improve it.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Where have you been these past years?
The situation the team is in is very well documented.

Here you can view the salary structure of the team:

Vancouver Canucks Salary Cap, Draft Picks, and Player Contracts - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Vancouver Canucks salary cap, contracts, roster, draft picks, salary, cap space, stats, salary cap projections, and daily cap tracking

www.capfriendly.com

Key takeaways:
- EP up for a raise
- Almost no long term contracts where you can expect the player to outperform the contract
- Only 1 R shot D signed for next year
- All the bad long contracts are basically buyout proof and untradeable

Here you can get an idea of the lack of prospects in the pipeline:

The NHL’s Best Farm Systems Ranked - 2023-24 Midseason Update - The Hockey Writers Editor's Choice Latest News, Analysis & More

Just like the NHL clubs, their prospect pools are all at different stages. This piece will take a look at every NHL farm system ranking.

thehockeywriters.com

- Nothing of note coming in at C or D. Only wingers.

Here you can see how poor the return on trades on top6 wingers has been lately:

Golden Knights trade Max Pacioretty, Dylan Coghlan to Hurricanes for future considerations

The Vegas Golden Knights have traded Max Pacioretty and Dylan Coghlan to the Carolina Hurricanes, according to Sportsnet's Elliotte Friedman.

www.sportsnet.ca

Kraken acquire forward Oliver Bjorkstrand from Blue Jackets for draft picks

The Seattle Kraken acquired forward Oliver Bjorkstrand from the Columbus Blue Jackets in exchange for a 2023 third-round pick and a 2023 fourth-round pick on Friday.

www.sportsnet.ca

DeBrincat traded to Senators by Blackhawks for No. 7 pick in 2022 Draft

Alex DeBrincat checks all the boxes the Ottawa Senators were looking for in a player and they determined the price to acquire the 24-year-old forward from the Chicago Blackhawks was worth paying.

www.nhl.com

The fact you are using those trades as some sort of baseline already shows you have no idea what's going on.

All the trades you have indicated were instances where a team was taking on the FULL salary of a player WITHOUT a contract coming back. MaxPac was a cap dump to get cap compliant. Bjorkstrand was a cap dump to fit Gaudreau in.

A Boeser for Dumba/Provorov trade is NOT the same type of trade as the ones you have referenced.

God LMAO

1) Despite their ages, there is nothing to suggest they will want to sign here long-term. This team has done nothing to convince them that we are a competitive team or a well run organization. There are already rumblings that Pettersson may want out in the next few years due to this dumpster fire organization.

2) Hughes and Pettersson are not franchise players that can carry a team into the playoffs (if they were, we’d have seen it by now). Pettersson is elite, but he’s not a Bedard/McDavid tier player that can turn the franchise around on his own.

3) This management group has shown they do not have a good grasp on where the team is at and how to improve it.

Management team has been here for ONE Calender year oh my god give it a break.

This whole 'management has SHOWN THEY CANT DO IT' is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You thought they could fix this massive mess in one offseason? How many magic beans are you on?

Why are you name dropping Bedard before he's even played a single NHL game. What the f? LOL

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The fact you are using those trades as some sort of baseline already shows you have no idea what's going on.

All the trades you have indicated were instances where a team was taking on the FULL salary of a player WITHOUT a contract coming back. MaxPac was a cap dump to get cap compliant. Bjorkstrand was a cap dump to fit Gaudreau in.

A Boeser for Dumba/Provorov trade is NOT the same type of trade as the ones you have referenced.

God LMAO

Ok. I think I've had enough "productive conversations" for one night.

Again. Lets see if you are correct. Lets see if Boeser returns a top4 Dman.

(Just to make sure you understand top4 Dman does not mean top4 in the league. It is a term roughly used for the 4 guys playing on the top 2 pairings on any given team.)

 

[Egghead1999]

And a full teardown rebuild is counting on ten to fifteen good things to happen.

This is what people don't understand.

People think let's sell hurr durr get a top pick and turn this around in 5 years!!

You can easily pick a Cody Glass, and not an Elias Pettersson.



I literally posted several realistic scenarios.

It's way more productive conversation than whatever you're doing lol.

If you think you have a better grasp of the situation, you do you.

You are right on. Look at the Bruins, three consecutive 1st rounds got nothing to show for it. However, this is not a good reason for Canucks to do what they are doing right now because it is crystal clear not working. For me, they do not want to follow the BUffalo model, then they should at least follow what Leafs, MTL, NYR or Blackhawks are doing.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Management team has been here for ONE Calender year oh my god give it a break.

This whole 'management has SHOWN THEY CANT DO IT' is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You thought they could fix this massive mess in one offseason? How many magic beans are you on?

Why are you name dropping Bedard before he's even played a single NHL game. What the f? LOL

I’m judging management based on what they’ve done. They’ve made some good moves (Kuzmenko) but mostly bad moves (Boeser, Miller extensions, focussing on acquiring wingers over improving defence, dropping the ball on Horvat). I’m willing to change my opinion on them once they prove they can construct a competitive team or make promising moves for the future. They haven’t done either of these things yet. This is a better approach than your “wait and see”, which was the main argument for defending Benning during his first few years here.

The rest of your post is condescending trash that doesn’t warrant a response.

 

[JohnHodgson]

I’m judging management based on what they’ve done. They’ve made some good moves (Kuzmenko) but mostly bad moves (Boeser, Miller extensions, focussing on acquiring wingers over improving defence, dropping the ball on Horvat). I’m willing to change my opinion on them once they prove they can construct a competitive team or make promising moves for the future. They haven’t done either of these things yet. This is a better approach than your “wait and see”, which was the main argument for defending Benning during his first few years here.

The rest of your post is condescending trash that doesn’t warrant a response.

I can't take you seriously when you say Petey isn't a franchise game breaker like Bedard is when the kid hasn't played a single NHL game.

Boeser's extension was a bad move? It's about a million too high but he had a very large QO I believe. Most people said the extension was a good contract at the time. Hindsight 20/20 since he's been bad this year. It wasn't a bad extension - the player is just playing poorly right now.

Those aren't the same things. Given the information they had at the time, the Boeser extension was more than fine.

 

[Gurn]

This is a most excellent thread, for a new comer to watch/follow.
It will show just what type of dialogue between posters is acceptable.
so far it seems acceptable to tell posters that their posts are;
The dumbest thing they've ever seen
make references to possible drug use
call folk pathetic
whiners and sulkers

It will be good to know just where the lines are.