Post-Game Talk: Canucks 2 - LA 1 (SO) Part 3 -- "We knew we could beat them." - Henrik

[Soth]

I like Dorsett too but our coach is too stupid and stubborn so he is being mis-used and it hurts our team.

He isn't being stupid. It is ridiculous how much flack and hate our coach takes based on giving a guy like Dorset 2-3 extra minutes per night.

Every coach in the NHL has a list of guys they trust when they are in a game-on-the-line moment and guys they don't. Kenins will have to earn that trust by not making dangerous plays. Horvat started that way, and he earned coach's trust big time.

Every coach in the NHL gets flack for playing guys they trust over guys the fans perceive as better players. The fact teams win the vast majority of games when they have a lead goes to show most coaches are effectively managing their leads, despite what angry fans might think.



Willie has lead us to an amazing season. I would stay a stupid person would not be able to win as decisively as Willie has this season. He's certainly earned my respect, but his true test will be the playoffs.

 

[arsmaster*]

Maybe you're right. But i didn't think so when i saw it.
Didn't think he reacted at all.. like it surprised him that it was passed in front.

Edit.. yeah just looked at again.. i don't know... it was a bang bang play but Lack didn't have any reaction or anticipation that a pass was going to be made there.

I can't completely absolve him there..



25 second mark:

Looks like he respected Carter going for his short side a little to strongly, but still, Tanev ties up that stick and the puck is in the corner.

Feisty today eh..

Dorsett looks like he has better acceleration than Matthias... or maybe its just an illusion due to having short legs. Matthias definitely better top end speed.

I'm feisty everyday. Not even sure I'd consider that feisty, it's a pretty accurate descriptor.

Dorsett's "effort" makes it appear like he's faster. I think that's the "illusion" you're speaking to.

 

[arsmaster*]

He isn't being stupid. It is ridiculous how much flack and hate our coach takes based on giving a guy like Dorset 2-3 extra minutes per night.

Every coach in the NHL has a list of guys they trust when they are in a game-on-the-line moment and guys they don't. Kenins will have to earn that trust by not making dangerous plays. Horvat started that way, and he earned coach's trust big time.

Every coach in the NHL gets flack for playing guys they trust over guys the fans perceive as better players. The fact teams win the vast majority of games when they have a lead goes to show most coaches are effectively managing their leads, despite what angry fans might think.



Willie has lead us to an amazing season. I would stay a stupid person would not be able to win as decisively as Willie has this season. He's certainly earned my respect, but his true test will be the playoffs.

Willie has done good things, but his decisions are not above reproach. He's been a breath of fresh air for the players that were on the team last year, that's clear as day.

The results are certainly in his favour, but to say Willie is "decisively" leading this to wins, seems strange. Our positive goal differential is almost entirely inflated by our 21 EN goals.

Also, 3 minutes of hockey is 5% of the game. It's a 20% inflation of the minutes he should be playing.

It's "loyalty" and "gut feel" from a self admitted, "stubbornly loyal" man. These are things you can't have. Remember the old curse of AV, and his unwillingness to adapt to situations, well WD is worse by a considerable margin here, and it could be to the detriment of the team.

Dorsett in 9-11 minutes is awesome at this role.

Dorsett on the PP, or nursing leads late or pushing for goals late is not awesome.

 

[vanuck]

It just might be that coaches don't use stats to coach the game? But he should because then we would win them all.
Complaining about a guy who has one at every level he has coached at because he doesn't do what you want according to stats. So I guess you believe that if you were behind the bench the team would be undefeated...

97 points, second in the division, 6th in the league in ROW but hey you could do better.

All the logical fallacies in this post aside, basically you're saying it's a good idea to throw Dorsett out there when trying to tie the game, for example... just one of the things WD has been known to do. Yep, would definitely trust.

 

[vanuck]

I feel the same way just because of that god awful contract. If Lack slips up slightly I expect Miller to be handed the reins again. There's also Willie's multiple questionable lineup decisions to consider...

Who are you to question the coach... Maybe you should apply for the position since you think you could do better?!?!

 

[Soth]

Remember the old curse of AV, and his unwillingness to adapt to situations, well WD is worse by a considerable margin here, and it could be to the detriment of the team.

AV was a great coach imo, and I was sad to see him go.

It is really hard for fans to judge coaches, because unlike watching a player we have a lot less info into exactly what coaches are doing. The best metric we have are games like these last 2 against LA. Bad coaches do not win games like that where the opposition is among the best in the NHL and fighting for must-win games.

The book on Willie is not written yet, but his systems are solid and his results can't be argued with. I don't have the stat handy, but last I checked Canucks were top 3 in regulation wins - and that is amazing.

 

[FuzzyTitus]

I was at the game last night, and I thought the team played fairly well other than the first two minutes and some poor clearing attempts.

The thing I found annoying, is just how often the team kept turning away from opportunities to hit. Most notably Matthias. I can understand if Vey isn't going to go for the hit, but for god sakes when you're 6'4" at least attempt to make body contact. Counted at least 2-3 times Matthias turned away, but it was prevalent through most of the team.

 

[arsmaster*]

AV was a great coach imo, and I was sad to see him go.

It is really hard for fans to judge coaches, because unlike watching a player we have a lot less info into exactly what coaches are doing. The best metric we have are games like these last 2 against LA. Bad coaches do not win games like that where the opposition is among the best in the NHL and fighting for must-win games.

The book on Willie is not written yet, but his systems are solid and his results can't be argued with. I don't have the stat handy, but last I checked Canucks were top 3 in regulation wins - and that is amazing.

He sure was. I understood that coaches have a shelf life, but I'm an AV guy.

I would disagree that two games vs LA are the best metric though, what about the first two?

I have no issue with the results, it's called constructive criticism. You can't improve if you're not always looking for ways to improve.

The gripes are because we think the team could be even better with those moves on top of the fun willie's brought back to the rink for the old guys.

 

[Soth]

I have no issue with the results, it's called constructive criticism. You can't improve if you're not always looking for ways to improve.

That's fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. But what really annoys me is seeing so many people going on about "coach is ********" or "Coach is stupid"

and I'm also really getting tired of all the dorsett debate when the truth of the matter is very obvious and not worth discussing over and over and over and over and over and over and over... and that truth simply is, coaches have guys they trust in key situations. Dorsett is Willie's. When better players prove to be more reliable, hopefully those players will get played more... and if they don't as long as we keep winning that's what matters to me.

 

[vanuck]

AV was a great coach imo, and I was sad to see him go.

It is really hard for fans to judge coaches, because unlike watching a player we have a lot less info into exactly what coaches are doing. The best metric we have are games like these last 2 against LA. Bad coaches do not win games like that where the opposition is among the best in the NHL and fighting for must-win games.

The book on Willie is not written yet, but his systems are solid and his results can't be argued with. I don't have the stat handy, but last I checked Canucks were top 3 in regulation wins - and that is amazing.

I think it's more important to look at process rather than results. Good process will lead to good results but bad process will lead to bad results and that's why people are going to point out things.

So far I don't think his system has been an issue, but it's more the personnel decisions he makes.

 

[God]

He isn't being stupid. It is ridiculous how much flack and hate our coach takes based on giving a guy like Dorset 2-3 extra minutes per night.

Every coach in the NHL has a list of guys they trust when they are in a game-on-the-line moment and guys they don't. Kenins will have to earn that trust by not making dangerous plays. Horvat started that way, and he earned coach's trust big time.

Every coach in the NHL gets flack for playing guys they trust over guys the fans perceive as better players. The fact teams win the vast majority of games when they have a lead goes to show most coaches are effectively managing their leads, despite what angry fans might think.



Willie has lead us to an amazing season. I would stay a stupid person would not be able to win as decisively as Willie has this season. He's certainly earned my respect, but his true test will be the playoffs.

What dangerous plays was Kenins making last night? Him, Horvat, and Hansen were doing great up until that point.

You have to question WD's ability to evaluate players. We've seen him kick Kassian to the curb in favor of Vey, who was playing just as poorly but had the benefit of being WD's son. We've seen him ruin the chemistry of Horvat/Hansen/Kenins in favor of getting Dorsett out there.

It's not like I'm the only one saying this. It's a common sentiment, and you worry that WD will be outcoached in the playoffs. While regulation wins are good, the Canucks have also been on the lucky side of things - their record in one goal games is something like 21-4-5, and let's not forget the insane amount of empty net goals they've scored.

edit: also, having the 1st powerplay unit shift off after not even 1 minute is really dumb.

 

[Toxic0n]

Every coach in the NHL gets flack for playing guys they trust over guys the fans perceive as better players. The fact teams win the vast majority of games when they have a lead goes to show most coaches are effectively managing their leads, despite what angry fans might think.

Sorry, we don't just "perceive" Matthias or Hansen as better players than Dorsett. It's an actual fact and seeing Dorsett on the ice with 30 seconds to go is terrible coaching.
"most coaches are effectively managing their leads"? That's BS!
Remember our record when leading after 2 with AV? 96-0-5 or something? Willie is demonstrably worse already and that's on him.

 

[m9]

Sorry, we don't just "perceive" Matthias or Hansen as better players than Dorsett. It's an actual fact and seeing Dorsett on the ice with 30 seconds to go is terrible coaching.
"most coaches are effectively managing their leads"? That's BS!
Remember our record when leading after 2 with AV? 96-0-5 or something? Willie is demonstrably worse already and that's on him.

Dorsett is being played with Hansen in these situations, not instead of him.

 

[Lundface*]

Dorsett is being played with Hansen in these situations, not instead of him.

Either way, it's either Sedin/Sedin/Burrows as one of the units

Next a collection of ( on the wings)

Hansen
Higgins
Matthias
Vrbata

So he's playing over two of those guys.

If you ask me I'd rather see Higgins Bonino Hansen in those situations. If they for some reason need to trot another unit out there Matthias Horvat Vrbata/Dorsett is fine by me.

Dorsett is not a good defensive player. Not sure why the coach believes this...
Not hard to see why he's in those positions though, the coach also uses him as an extra attacker in the last minute

 

[The Stig]

Fun reminder. We're currently missing Richardson and Kassian. Who both would be playing in those situations before Dorsett if healthy.

 

[Samzilla]

Fun reminder. We're currently missing Richardson and Kassian. Who both would be playing in those situations before Dorsett if healthy.

uh, kassian does not get defend-the-lead duty at the end of close games if memory serves...he gets bench duty

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Fun reminder. We're currently missing Richardson and Kassian. Who both would be playing in those situations before Dorsett if healthy.

Richardson would.
I don't really want Kenins out there late in the game. We have enough good defensive forwards.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I was at the game last night, and I thought the team played fairly well other than the first two minutes and some poor clearing attempts.

The thing I found annoying, is just how often the team kept turning away from opportunities to hit. Most notably Matthias. I can understand if Vey isn't going to go for the hit, but for god sakes when you're 6'4" at least attempt to make body contact. Counted at least 2-3 times Matthias turned away, but it was prevalent through most of the team.

You'd almost think Murray Craven and Willie Huber (RIP) were our assistant coaches.

 

[vanuck]

Fun reminder. We're currently missing Richardson and Kassian. Who both would be playing in those situations before Dorsett if healthy.

I still don't think that makes it okay to play Dorset in those situations though. You could use Matthias in that role (and is the better player too).

 

[Lundface*]

Fun reminder. We're currently missing Richardson and Kassian. Who both would be playing in those situations before Dorsett if healthy.

Now that's funny

Kassian when healthy was getting full on BENCHED in the third when Van had the lead....even when he was on the Sedin line.

Fun reminder-Richardson is a center and will not effect Dorsett's play time.

 

[StIllmatic]

Now that's funny

Kassian when healthy was getting full on BENCHED in the third when Van had the lead....even when he was on the Sedin line.

Fun reminder-Richardson is a center and will not effect Dorsett's play time.

I laughed at that too.

Kassian will never replace Dorsett on that when the Canucks have the lead.

 

[m9]

Either way, it's either Sedin/Sedin/Burrows as one of the units

Next a collection of ( on the wings)

Hansen
Higgins
Matthias
Vrbata

So he's playing over two of those guys.

If you ask me I'd rather see Higgins Bonino Hansen in those situations. If they for some reason need to trot another unit out there Matthias Horvat Vrbata/Dorsett is fine by me.

Dorsett is not a good defensive player. Not sure why the coach believes this...
Not hard to see why he's in those positions though, the coach also uses him as an extra attacker in the last minute

No, he is playing over only one of those guys. Currently that guy is Matthias.

I don't really care who plays in that spot out of Matthias or Dorsett. I'm just still surprised that people are so upset that either guy is playing over Kenins.

Kenins has also gone over 20 games without a goal. Can you imagine the outrage around here if Dorsett, Matthias, or Vey had gone 20 games without a goal while playing primarily on that line?

 

[arsmaster*]

uh, kassian does not get defend-the-lead duty at the end of close games if memory serves...he gets bench duty

What? Kassian would play those minutes?

Kassian can't even get on the ice with a 2 goal lead with the empty net when one goal away from a hattrick.

What a laughable claim.

Dorsett has been getting these reps all freaking season, the injury excuse is tired, old, and false.

 

[Samzilla]

What? Kassian would play those minutes?

Kassian can't even get on the ice with a 2 goal lead with the empty net when one goal away from a hattrick.

What a laughable claim.

Dorsett has been getting these reps all freaking season, the injury excuse is tired, old, and false.

i don't understand your comment towards me. i said he wouldn't play those minutes...that he'd be on the bench.

 

[arsmaster*]

No, he is playing over only one of those guys. Currently that guy is Matthias.

I don't really care who plays in that spot out of Matthias or Dorsett. I'm just still surprised that people are so upset that either guy is playing over Kenins.

Kenins has also gone over 20 games without a goal. Can you imagine the outrage around here if Dorsett, Matthias, or Vey had gone 20 games without a goal while playing primarily on that line?

Yup, Kenins goals this season were all flukey saveable shots, he's been getting better chances than that recently.

Quick, lets think of Dorsett's last two goals, flukes, just like Kenins', but guess what, for the rest of their shifts the puck is generally in opposite ends.

I'm not sure why you'd be surprised people are upset, Kenins is a more effective player currently than both of those guys. We're not talking about scoring goals here, we're talking about defending a lead (I'll take the guy who has the puck 200ft from our net more often for 200$ please Alex).

I'm guess you haven't paid attention to the zone starts....kenins and horvat start 30-45% of their shifts in the o zone, Dorsett and Matthias with Vey are getting close to 70%. They got eaten up and spit out by Clifford, Nolan and Lewis last night.

Dorsett isn't good at defense.

If Kenins is deemed good enough to handle that load early, why isn't he late? It makes no sense.