Post-Game Talk: Canucks 2 - LA 1 (SO) Part 3 -- "We knew we could beat them." - Henrik

[arsmaster*]

i don't understand your comment towards me. i said he wouldn't play those minutes...that he'd be on the bench.

Yeah, sorry, quoted wrong guy...just adding to your post.

 

[Addison Rae]

The Kings have played more hockey than any other team the last 3 years... As good as last night was, the Kings looked tired and the Canucks took advantage of it.

No, not really. The Kings are still a dominant team, ranking 1st in CF%. The Canucks simply played incredibly well, and beat them.

 

[m9]

Yup, Kenins goals this season were all flukey saveable shots, he's been getting better chances than that recently.

Quick, lets think of Dorsett's last two goals, flukes, just like Kenins', but guess what, for the rest of their shifts the puck is generally in opposite ends.

I'm not sure why you'd be surprised people are upset, Kenins is a more effective player currently than both of those guys. We're not talking about scoring goals here, we're talking about defending a lead (I'll take the guy who has the puck 200ft from our net more often for 200$ please Alex).

I'm guess you haven't paid attention to the zone starts....kenins and horvat start 30-45% of their shifts in the o zone, Dorsett and Matthias with Vey are getting close to 70%. They got eaten up and spit out by Clifford, Nolan and Lewis last night.

Dorsett isn't good at defense.

If Kenins is deemed good enough to handle that load early, why isn't he late? It makes no sense.

I'll leave this topic alone after this since it's been beaten to death, but again I just think that with ten minutes to go in that situation Dorsett or Matthias are the better options. It has nothing to do with anything other than I feel Kenins is the most likely to make a costly error and is the riskier option. The type of mistakes Kenins has made directly lead to scoring chances, while the mistakes from others have not been as critical. It is exactly the same kind of mistake Kassian has made and why he also was not playing with a lead. These are high-impact turnovers that you don't see with others. There is no advanced stat to tell you this, but when watching the games you see them.

This is obviously a divisive issue around here. Whatever the case, we can be happy the team won and the results were there this time. I'm a big fan of Kenins and was really happy with his game yesterday. Hopefully he works himself into this rotation as it's a good step forward.

 

[PG Canuck]

Who are you to question the coach... Maybe you should apply for the position since you think you could do better?!?!

It's a discussion board, we have every right to judge.

 

[God]

I'll leave this topic alone after this since it's been beaten to death, but again I just think that with ten minutes to go in that situation Dorsett or Matthias are the better options. It has nothing to do with anything other than I feel Kenins is the most likely to make a costly error and is the riskier option. The type of mistakes Kenins has made directly lead to scoring chances, while the mistakes from others have not been as critical. It is exactly the same kind of mistake Kassian has made and why he also was not playing with a lead. These are high-impact turnovers that you don't see with others. There is no advanced stat to tell you this, but when watching the games you see them.

This is obviously a divisive issue around here. Whatever the case, we can be happy the team won and the results were there this time. I'm a big fan of Kenins and was really happy with his game yesterday. Hopefully he works himself into this rotation as it's a good step forward.

Refresh my memory with examples of these high impact turnovers? I don't remember any, but it could be my bias towards Kenins.

 

[arsmaster*]

Refresh my memory with examples of these high impact turnovers? I don't remember any, but it could be my bias towards Kenins.

Well if god is biased to kenins. So am I.

 

[God]

Little known fact: Kenins is the Based God

 

[vanuck]

It's a discussion board, we have every right to judge.

I figured I should have used the

 

[m9]

I don't have my Kenins lowlight reel sitting around. You can probably just watch the entire Chicago game though to start as overall that was his worst game. In the games prior to that there were a bunch of poor decisions he made, particularly in the neutral zone or breaking into the offensive zone.

 

[God]

I don't have my Kenins lowlight reel sitting around. You can probably just watch the entire Chicago game though to start as overall that was his worst game. In the games prior to that there were a bunch of poor decisions he made, particularly in the neutral zone or breaking into the offensive zone.

What good does it do to a young player if he is playing well for the course of the game and then gets benched?

 

[m9]

What good does it do to a young player if he is playing well for the course of the game and then gets benched?

Because the team is trying to win the most important game of the year, not just develop one guy.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Because the team is trying to win the most important game of the year, not just develop one guy.

b-i-n-g-o

What good does it do for a rookie if he blows the most important game of the year with a dumb pass?

 

[God]

Because the team is trying to win the most important game of the year, not just develop one guy.

I might buy that argument if they didn't replace him with Dorsett.

 

[Soth]

Refresh my memory with examples of these high impact turnovers? I don't remember any, but it could be my bias towards Kenins.

I'm really high on Kenins and I think he looks great. But are you really going to try and say with a straight face you haven't seen him make a play that lead to a dangerous turnover?

I'm going to drop this conversation now because only a few people are arguing it at this point, and they have their fingers in their ears yelling "lalalalala"

 

[Verviticus]

It's a discussion board, we have every right to judge.

he's being sarcastic!

 

[arsmaster*]

I don't have my Kenins lowlight reel sitting around. You can probably just watch the entire Chicago game though to start as overall that was his worst game. In the games prior to that there were a bunch of poor decisions he made, particularly in the neutral zone or breaking into the offensive zone.

That whole line was garbage against Chicago.

Horvat's turnover lead to directly to the 3rd goal.

Has kenins done anything like that?

 

[arsmaster*]

I'm really high on Kenins and I think he looks great. But are you really going to try and say with a straight face you haven't seen him make a play that lead to a dangerous turnover?

I'm going to drop this conversation now because only a few people are arguing it at this point, and they have their fingers in their ears yelling "lalalalala"

Are you going to say he's made these plays anymore than anyone else? Enough to get benched?

It's not people putting their fingers in their ears. It's people disagreeing.

Higgins and Matthias do the same exact circle back and both regularly struggle to get the puck in and out of the d zone.

For some reason it's accepted when they do it, but it's perfect rationalization to bench kenins now and previously kassian.

 

[alternate]

What coach is going to play 2 rookies at the same time in that situation? One of the common complaints about WD early in the season (I know I made it) was for all the benefits of rolling four lines, there comes a time when the bench needs to be shortened. That time is late in a one goal, must win game.

Why put a rookie in over his head? And for all the second guessing and Dorsett hate, the strategy actually worked perfectly. Dorsett even made a couple of nice plays to clear the defensive zone. I mean at what point does Willie earn the benefit of the doubt on this? We've been good at protecting leads, he must be doing something right.

Really, for me Kenins vs Dorsett in this situation is a no brainer. Almost every coach is going to bench their rookies at that point, unless they have no other option or that rookie has the kind of game Bo does. The real debate is why Dorsett over Matthias. This question at least has some traction. I personally don't have a strong feeling one way or the other between those two, but when Matthias is consistently joining the rooks at the end of the bench in close games, one has to question whether there's going to be much interest on the Canucks part when it comes to offering him a new contract.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

What coach is going to play 2 rookies at the same time in that situation?

excellent point.

 

[God]

Are you going to say he's made these plays anymore than anyone else? Enough to get benched?

It's not people putting their fingers in their ears. It's people disagreeing.

Higgins and Matthias do the same exact circle back and both regularly struggle to get the puck in and out of the d zone.

For some reason it's accepted when they do it, but it's perfect rationalization to bench kenins now and previously kassian.

Thank you.

Bad turnovers happen to everybody. If they're frequent, like they are with our pizza delivery man, of course it becomes an issue. But somehow players who are trying to move the puck to make offensive plays are punished, while Higgins has the audacity to try a deke around an incoming player while he's last man back, which lead to a goal against - and continues to get ice time.

It is sort of counter intuitive given the way WD has coached, as it seems like he tries his best to preach house league fairness by playing 4 lines. If that's the case, veterans should also be benched for poor plays, but they're not. The moment a guy like Kenins or Kassian makes a mistake, the argument is that "he has to play well to earn WD's trust". But when a veteran like Higgins makes a mistake, WD keeps playing him because "he can't let a mistake get him down and the best way to counter that is to keep playing him". A stupid double standard, and even stupider when WD's son Vey was getting ice time despite losing every board battle. Thankfully that's changed because apparently it takes 60 games for a coaching staff to realize something isn't working. A shame that the 2nd powerplay unit actually scored twice in the past two weeks or so - maybe we would've finally seen a change.

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

You know I don't think I've seen the Sedins or Bieksa skating like that all season. If they can pull that out of the tank it will be good in the playoffs.

 

[arsmaster*]

What coach is going to play 2 rookies at the same time in that situation? One of the common complaints about WD early in the season (I know I made it) was for all the benefits of rolling four lines, there comes a time when the bench needs to be shortened. That time is late in a one goal, must win game.

Why put a rookie in over his head? And for all the second guessing and Dorsett hate, the strategy actually worked perfectly. Dorsett even made a couple of nice plays to clear the defensive zone. I mean at what point does Willie earn the benefit of the doubt on this? We've been good at protecting leads, he must be doing something right.

Really, for me Kenins vs Dorsett in this situation is a no brainer. Almost every coach is going to bench their rookies at that point, unless they have no other option or that rookie has the kind of game Bo does. The real debate is why Dorsett over Matthias. This question at least has some traction. I personally don't have a strong feeling one way or the other between those two, but when Matthias is consistently joining the rooks at the end of the bench in close games, one has to question whether there's going to be much interest on the Canucks part when it comes to offering him a new contract.

He plays the two rookies together all game long, with the highest dzone starts of any line? If they're trusted and expected to operate that way all game, what does the last 5 minutes make a difference?

I don't see how a rookie would be in over his head in those minutes in the last 5, but not the first 55.

Remember when he didn't trust Bo? Remember when he had to start playing Bo in those minutes? Remember when Bo became a key player for us in those situations?

Now remember when Horvat gifted Chicago a goal the other night. He didn't get benched. It hasn't stopped him from playing down the stretch of games. I don't recall a single egregious error like Horvat's from Kenins all season. I do recall them from Dorsett.

Kenins is a rookie, but he's also played Olympic hockey, he's been around the block. He hasn't shown me anything to not be trusted.

 

[tantalum]

He plays the two rookies together all game long, with the highest dzone starts of any line? If they're trusted and expected to operate that way all game, what does the last 5 minutes make a difference?

One possible reason...in games where you up by 1 you are expecting the team that is down to be throwing caution to the wind. Pinching like mad. Pressuring like they haven't done before.

The dynamics of the game DO change in those final minutes. As a coach you might just want a more calming veteran presence who has experienced that before a number of times. Who knows that now isn't the time to be cute etc.

Now remember when Horvat gifted Chicago a goal the other night. He didn't get benched. It hasn't stopped him from playing down the stretch of games. I don't recall a single egregious error like Horvat's from Kenins all season. I do recall them from Dorsett.

Kenins is a rookie, but he's also played Olympic hockey, he's been around the block. He hasn't shown me anything to not be trusted.

Horvat didn't get benched because it's not something that is typical for him. For Kenins of late he has had issues with giveaways in areas coaches don't want to see giveaways. Dorsett I agree is not a great player and he makes a lot of mistakes, but they tend to be mistakes along the boards that a team can more easily recover from. Now without going through all the tape and tabulating for ourselves who does what, when and where it it is a never ending discussion of he said she said. It's a gut feel for any in this thread.

But I know who might be tracking such things...the coaching staff. And despite the complaints the team has been very good at holding leads this year. The choices in this regard while some may find them curious are working and have been all year. This isn't the same as PP unit choices for a unit that wasn't and still doesn't work.

 

[vannuckles]

This team is forging a never-give-up identity this season. That's the kind of attitude you want to pass on to Horvat and the other young players when they finally take over in a couple years.

An inspired season from the veterans, some key new faces, and unexpected performances from young guys... this team is a treat to watch (vs. other top teams at least )

Go Winnipeg/Calgary: LA going from champs to chumps would really put the icing on this season for me.

More like, we win against other top teams, and lose against bottom feeders ?