Post-Game Talk: Canucks 1 @ Capitals 4 | 14/1/16 |

[Rotting Corpse*]

One of the more infuriating games I've watched this season. ****ing Derek Dorsett with the Sedins. I was told that it was a temporary thing, but it lasted the entire game except the last minute when LINDEN ****ING VEY took his place. Dorsett dragged the twins down all game. In the third when Virtanen got moved with Horvat I thought, oh good, Willie finally is going to put Vrbata with the twins but then I see Vrbata playing on the fourth line like that's going to work Jesus Christ.

Etem looked decent. Tough night for Edler.

I didn't watch the game but that would be three tough nights in a row for Edler.

 

[CanaFan]

The Sedins needs one thing.

A new management team. A new management team would instantly invigorate this team more than any trade or acquisition could ever dream of doing.

Think about it....

So a new GM would inspire Bartowski to stop sucking at defense? Or Weber to not play like a china doll? Or Dorsett would offer to not play 17 minutes a night?

I agree that new management is needed but I don't think this current line up would suddenly be not terrible. They aren't bad because they've decided to stop playing for Benning, they're bad because there are bad players littered up and down the line up.

 

[biturbo19]

Why do people think the Sedins need a player like Lucic? They don't need any help retrieving pucks, they don't need a goon in front of the net. They need skilled, smart players who can read the play and play catch with them until someone finds open space. There is a reason Burrows, Kassian and even Hansen have played well with the Sedins. Hansen has hands of stone but he can read the play and make a pass.

Having someone with them who can stand in front of the net is important, but the Sedins also go to the net. They don't need a designated screen. They need a 3rd, not nearly as good, Sedin.

I agree with about half of this, but also disagree with some of the specific assertions.


I think the Sedins really do need someone to help them with puck retrieval. And i'm not talking just "dump ins" on zone entry here, it's about the way it opens things up for them when they have the option to "cycle to open ice" by having that "puck retriever" option. When they can treat that empty ice far corner (or wherever) like a "3rd Sedin" and just put the puck there for their 3rd wheel to go retrieve. When Burrows was at the height of his time with the Sedins, that's what he excelled at. Of course, that sort of "puck retriever" has to be smart and able to read the play well enough to get a jump on that (along with the speed and tenacity to win any puck races/battles that result).

Which leads into the part i do agree with...they do absolutely need a "smart" player who can pass the puck to play with them most effectively. Someone who can read the play - doesn't have to be a "3rd Sedin", but someone who can get the gist of what they're trying to do and read where the open ice they're trying to create is going to be and where they're trying to work the puck to.

Which also plays directly into the "net front presence" thing. They do need someone who can and does get to the front of the net. What they don't need, is a statue around the top of the crease just watching them do work. They need someone who has some feel for when to jump in and out of scoring areas all over the ice, including those prime net front areas. And obviously, someone with a good shot, or at least some decent finishers touch to put home the backdoor passes and tip plays the Sedins consistently set up (for smart players).



Actually kind of funny this gets brought up today (although really more sad because WillieD is a Dorsett pimping, stubborn old man)...but funny in that for a long time, i've felt one of the players on that Capitals team tonight would make about the most ideal halfway realistic Sedin linemate out there. TJ Oshie i think, would be about the "perfect" Sedin RWer. He's got great wheels, plays a physical game and gets to the dirty areas, tracks down pucks so well...but he's also a really smart player, good passer, and with a great RH shot to finish chances. And on a deal that's already a sweetheart deal, but would probably look even better with the Sedins. But we can't have him.

 

[Intangibos]

Oh don't get me wrong, puck retrieval is great. It's just the Sedins are also excellent at it. Being able to skate in and make a big hit doesn't mean you're going to be the best puck retriever. Sedins are two of the best at taking the puck along the boards, we should know first hand.

A player who can get pucks and go to the net is desirable for the Sedins, but it's not all they need, those are just useful skills. When I say they need a 3rd Sedin, I mean they need someone who can understand what they're going to do and get to the right spot. There is a reason we joked about Burrows as a 3rd Sedin for all those years. A 3rd Sedin can retrieve pucks and go to the net just like the Sedins can, they can play catch with the Sedins and read the play. Obviously there is no 3rd Sedin, but ideally we want a player in their mould.

Ironically, I honestly think Kassian was the best linemate for the Sedins, just for the wrong reasons so people didn't appreciate him. People expect big bodies like him to go to the net hard, and finish every check. In reality, he was the most similar player we had to the Sedins (and Bertuzzi for that matter). A player who can work along the boards, read the play, and make excellent passes. Plus he has a big body to boot so he can be even more effective going to the net than the Sedins. He wasn't some clumsy goon on skates, he had some real soft hands and endless potential. He's the type of player I would have worked very very hard with to get him working hard and clean because I don't think we have anyone better than him to mesh with the Sedins. I believe Kassian in a few years will be a player that would be much more effective with the Sedins than Burrows ever was, assuming he gets his act together.

 

[KeninsFan]

Nobody really had great expectations for this team, but you have to admit when even the guys on the house radio station are scratching their heads at some of the things Willie does, it's bad...rarely have we ever seen a coach so far out of his depth behind an NHL bench imo.

Do I think Willie is an excellent NHL coach? No

But the more I look at the roster I more I agree with his methods (except for the 1234).

D after Edler-Tanev. Complete trash - maybe 1 or 2 NHL calibre bottom pairing guys in Biega and Hutton. That D is going to be destroyed game after game unless he plays a conservative system

Fs after Sedins, BaeBo. Nothing good to speak off, Vrbata is the only real RW option in a top 6 role. It kinda makes sense to allow him to play with BaeBo because teams are going to load up defensively against the Sedins and Vrbata isn't going to make or break them.

All of the fans clamouring for Virtanen or Etem with the Sedins don't realize they're both marginal NHLers currently. Burrows is declining and every other option is limited to the role Benning brought them in for (ie Prust as the 4LW).

A game against a top team like Washington which can roll 3 scoring lines just shows the lack of depth. We were outmatched from the very beginning but at least Willie could motivate them to come out hard in the 1st.

 

[WTG]

Virtanen and Etem are marginal NHL players that are young thus being able to punch above their weight. That is why it's important for a coach to adjust and bump up a players ice-time or move them with the sedins.

Etem and Virtanen being young players doesn't give Willie a excuse to not play the with sedins. It's a very weak argument

 

[KeninsFan]

Virtanen and Etem are marginal NHL players that are young thus being able to punch above their weight. That is why it's important for a coach to adjust and bump up a players ice-time or move them with the sedins.

Etem and Virtanen being young players doesn't give Willie a excuse to not play the with sedins. It's a very weak argument

If I had to guess what his instructions this year were I would guess: get the 2 pts, make the playoffs. Slowly bring along the rookies (already alluded to with the scheduled healthy scratches for Virt/McCann)

He might change his tactics after Benning sells vets at the deadline(?).

 

[Soups On]

Virtanen and Etem are marginal NHL players that are young thus being able to punch above their weight. That is why it's important for a coach to adjust and bump up a players ice-time or move them with the sedins.

Etem and Virtanen being young players doesn't give Willie a excuse to not play the with sedins. It's a very weak argument

Virtanen and Etem are better offensive players than Dorsett and should've had an opportunity to play with the twins. Like you said, age shouldn't impact Willie's decision. Dorsett is what he is, an overpaid 4th liner who is most effective on the... 4th line. Putting him with the Sedin's all game was awful.


Vrbata should've been up with the Sedin's anyways. Vrbata's been the 3rd best player on Bo's line and he's already shown the ability to score with the Twins. It just made no sense for Vrbata to be with the twins. Despite his deficiencies, he's the best available RW and should be placed in a position to succeed.

 

[mathonwy]

So a new GM would inspire Bartowski to stop sucking at defense? Or Weber to not play like a china doll? Or Dorsett would offer to not play 17 minutes a night?

I agree that new management is needed but I don't think this current line up would suddenly be not terrible. They aren't bad because they've decided to stop playing for Benning, they're bad because there are bad players littered up and down the line up.

I honestly think yes. A new GM and coach would inspire the veterans to start giving a **** and the veterans giving ****s would turn this team around

IMO, Weber was a good player last season because Hammer gave a ****. Hammer covered up a tonne of Weber's deficiencies turning him into a half decent power play quarterback.

And Dorsett was a half decent player last season when he was playing with veteran players like Matthias, Higgins and Hansen.

----

IMO, the quickest way to get this rebuild back on track is to get a management team that ALL the veteran players respect and believe in.

If us fans are so disillusioned with what has happened to the team, why is so hard to believe that the players might feel the same way? Because they're professionals?

Yeah.. that's not how it works.

These guys had legitimate real life relationships with each other and frankly, they've all gone through a lot since 2011.

 

[biturbo19]

Oh don't get me wrong, puck retrieval is great. It's just the Sedins are also excellent at it. Being able to skate in and make a big hit doesn't mean you're going to be the best puck retriever. Sedins are two of the best at taking the puck along the boards, we should know first hand.

A player who can get pucks and go to the net is desirable for the Sedins, but it's not all they need, those are just useful skills. When I say they need a 3rd Sedin, I mean they need someone who can understand what they're going to do and get to the right spot. There is a reason we joked about Burrows as a 3rd Sedin for all those years. A 3rd Sedin can retrieve pucks and go to the net just like the Sedins can, they can play catch with the Sedins and read the play. Obviously there is no 3rd Sedin, but ideally we want a player in their mould.

Ironically, I honestly think Kassian was the best linemate for the Sedins, just for the wrong reasons so people didn't appreciate him. People expect big bodies like him to go to the net hard, and finish every check. In reality, he was the most similar player we had to the Sedins (and Bertuzzi for that matter). A player who can work along the boards, read the play, and make excellent passes. Plus he has a big body to boot so he can be even more effective going to the net than the Sedins. He wasn't some clumsy goon on skates, he had some real soft hands and endless potential. He's the type of player I would have worked very very hard with to get him working hard and clean because I don't think we have anyone better than him to mesh with the Sedins. I believe Kassian in a few years will be a player that would be much more effective with the Sedins than Burrows ever was, assuming he gets his act together.

The Kassian thing has been beaten to death really. But i still never saw the great fit there that people were always clamoring for. Obviously the off-ice stuff that's come to light really complicates matters and adds another layer of less than ideal.

But even just as a player on the ice...i don't think Kassian was ever a particularly well-suited Sedin linemate. To me, his "vast upside" was always in what he could do when he had the puck. And i think that's antithesis of one of the best qualities of a good Sedin linemate has - ability to play at their best, without constantly handling the puck. The best Sedin linemates have been guys who can retrieve pucks, make simple smart plays, get open when needed and cycle it right back to the Twins ASAP. Guys with skill and smarts, but who don't mind deferring to the Sedins to do the vast majority of the playmaking and setup. Requires a lot of smarts, but a kind of unique skillset...a kind of oxymoronic "skilled grinder" basically.

Not even delving into the constant defensive lapses, Kassian often looked a bit lost, or at least lazy without the puck offensively. That's not what the Sedins really need to be at their best. People complain about Kassian being "miscast", and while i agree to an extent...i think a lot of it was just the player he is/was. Not sure i pin that all on management or coaching, as it's the same issue which persisted through various front office staff and even teams. To me, Kassian's "upside" was something more like a super jumbo sized Baertschi. And for the same reasons Baertschi would be a poor fit with the Twins (too many LWs aside even), i don't think Kassian (or the player he could have become) was ever really the right fit there.

The Twins need a linemate who can read the play, but also someone with more footspeed than Kassian ever had to keep up with any "processing lag" inherent in not being an actual 3rd Sedin; necessary in chasing down pucks that the Sedins put to areas for retrieval. And a linemate who is at home retrieving that puck, and promptly shuffling it right back to the nearest Sedin at their earliest convenience. Which to me, always seemed like a bit of a waste of what Kassian did do well - using his size to protect the puck and keep it on his own stick while he bulled his way around looking for passing options.

I think in general, that's the problem with the concept of the Sedins needing a true "power forward" to play with. These true power forward types tend to excel with the puck on their stick, maybe in different ways...but it's always about using their size to bully their way around with the puck. Whereas an ideal Sedin linemate i think, probably ought to expect to have the puck on their stick a LOT less than 1/3rd of the time - and be at their best in that situation.

 

[biturbo19]

Virtanen and Etem are better offensive players than Dorsett and should've had an opportunity to play with the twins. Like you said, age shouldn't impact Willie's decision. Dorsett is what he is, an overpaid 4th liner who is most effective on the... 4th line. Putting him with the Sedin's all game was awful.


Vrbata should've been up with the Sedin's anyways. Vrbata's been the 3rd best player on Bo's line and he's already shown the ability to score with the Twins. It just made no sense for Vrbata to be with the twins. Despite his deficiencies, he's the best available RW and should be placed in a position to succeed.

Yeah. This shouldn't be complicated. But WillieD is making it complicated, for some completely inexplicable reason. It's completely irritating.


Hansen has played well there, but he's injured. Ok...fine.

>So you go to Plan B (Burrows) who has a track record as probably the best Sedin linemate ever. Yes, he's dropped off in his play, his wheels and intensity level aren't quite the same and that seems to really hurt his effectiveness with the Twins, but at least he's not getting in the way. They can survive as a line and at least not hurt the two best scorers we have.

>That's not good enough and you want a shakeup? Go to obvious Plan C. You take WillieD's own advice from the Florida postgame comments - ie. thought "Vrbata with the Twins was the best chance of getting a goal". I mean, he's got this rattling around in his head...he literally said it in the last postgame press conference. What on earth is the hangup here?

I get that Vrbata and the Sedins went stale eventually when they started to get way too cute with everything and teams started to hone in on that. But it's a combination that could easily work reasonably well once again, at least for a brief stretch.


But instead, we get Vrbata on the 4th line with a pair of muckers and grinders. And a mucker and grinder on the 1st line with the Sedins?


This is like...

 

[alternate]

I get trying not to disrupt every line because of an injury, but honestly I'd rather see Willie play 3 dmen with the Sedins over 60mins of Dorset. Kicker was sending Vrbata to the 4th line when Virtannen was promoted. Likely wouldn't have mattered any as WAS is simply a couple classes above us, but at least try some different looks.

Don't get Edler for nearly 25mins on gm1 of a back to back. Edler was playing like he had an amputated hand and he gets nearly 5mins more than the next highest player.

Miller had a good return though. Can't blame him on any goals, and made numerous good saves. Hopefully Willie can resist the urge to ride Miller into the ground--again--and we can have a 1a/1b with both guys getting adequate rest.

Getting Sbisa, Sutter and Hansen back in short order will help matters, but even that depends on the line up decisions Willie makes. Sbisa in, Biega out wouldn't make us a better team for example.

I'm not on team tank, but I'm 100% on team sell-off at the deadline. If we start beating WAS on the road, that might be in jeopardy. Glad the boys didn't get embarrassed, but the loss was expected.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

only if you win them a cup.

40 years of futility in DC says something terrible will happen and I'll be crying in my beer this spring, but one can dream, right??

If we can borrow your draft picks.

It'd never work with the salary cap, but I'd be cool with mortgaging the future to see Ovie raise the Cup once. We have a two year window before contracts get weird and that dude deserves to raise the Cup.

Good luck the rest of the season. If any team should give you guys hope, it's the Caps. Two years ago we were an embarrassment with Adam Oates behind the bench and George McFail calling the shots. This franchise has done a 180 with Trotz and MacLellan leading the way.

 

[tantalum]

A lot of dead weight on the roster....a very large chunk of it not inherited. Limited depth. At times they were manhandled last night. 4 or 5 odd man rushes against in the first alone...it seemed the Caps could pick apart the canucks in the neutral zone at will to generate those odd man rushes. Bartkowski Dorsett on the top line all night Weber Prust Willie

I could go on.

Tonight is the Canes. Both teams played last night. Both had to travel to Raleigh last night. It'll be two tired teams. Ward should start as Eddie took the victory last night against the Blues.

Lucic....I actually think a guy like Lucic would be a nice fit for most teams. But not at the money he is likely to get. And that's the problem.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I agree with about half of this, but also disagree with some of the specific assertions.


I think the Sedins really do need someone to help them with puck retrieval. And i'm not talking just "dump ins" on zone entry here, it's about the way it opens things up for them when they have the option to "cycle to open ice" by having that "puck retriever" option. When they can treat that empty ice far corner (or wherever) like a "3rd Sedin" and just put the puck there for their 3rd wheel to go retrieve. When Burrows was at the height of his time with the Sedins, that's what he excelled at. Of course, that sort of "puck retriever" has to be smart and able to read the play well enough to get a jump on that (along with the speed and tenacity to win any puck races/battles that result).

Which leads into the part i do agree with...they do absolutely need a "smart" player who can pass the puck to play with them most effectively. Someone who can read the play - doesn't have to be a "3rd Sedin", but someone who can get the gist of what they're trying to do and read where the open ice they're trying to create is going to be and where they're trying to work the puck to.

Which also plays directly into the "net front presence" thing. They do need someone who can and does get to the front of the net. What they don't need, is a statue around the top of the crease just watching them do work. They need someone who has some feel for when to jump in and out of scoring areas all over the ice, including those prime net front areas. And obviously, someone with a good shot, or at least some decent finishers touch to put home the backdoor passes and tip plays the Sedins consistently set up (for smart players).



Actually kind of funny this gets brought up today (although really more sad because WillieD is a Dorsett pimping, stubborn old man)...but funny in that for a long time, i've felt one of the players on that Capitals team tonight would make about the most ideal halfway realistic Sedin linemate out there. TJ Oshie i think, would be about the "perfect" Sedin RWer. He's got great wheels, plays a physical game and gets to the dirty areas, tracks down pucks so well...but he's also a really smart player, good passer, and with a great RH shot to finish chances. And on a deal that's already a sweetheart deal, but would probably look even better with the Sedins. But we can't have him.

i don't know about oshie, but i agree with all of this.

they need a version of (the young, forechecking) milan lucic with a brain. i don't know, that would be 1991 cam neely i guess? man, i really wish things had turned out differently with zack.

but what i would give to see sedin - sedin - jagr, just for one all-star game. nobody would be able to retrieve the puck, but if you made a bad outlet you'd never get the puck back from them.

 

[tantalum]

Oshie....not sure you want him though I agree he is the type of player that would make sense. There were reasons he was the guy moved from St. Louis.

 

[Deestroyer]

If you guys want Marcus Johansson will be available this offseason.