Canes sold 3.6m in new business for next season

[tarheelhockey]

What made Raleigh the better market compared to Greensboro?

Raleigh is a considerably larger city than Greensboro, especially when you take the entire Triangle (two MSAs) into account. In addition to simply having more and wealthier people, it also has a larger business scene including a major biotech center, three large universities, and the state government. It’s both fast-growing and very stable.

Raleigh was also getting a new, NHL-quality arena. Even if Greensboro were somehow an equal market, it would never have landed an NHL team without a new arena.

And why did the NHL go to Raleigh/Greensboro instead of Charlotte? Why didn't the NHL go to the largest market in the state?

Charlotte is bigger than Raleigh, but not so big that it can be home to 3 major league teams. They already had the Hornets and honeymoon-era Panthers, and even after 20 years of growth the city’s still not ready for another team. Raleigh was a wide open market, and will clearly never get another team as long as the NFL and NBA are in Charlotte (MLB is out of the question in either city). So the NHL knew it could plant its flag in Raleigh and only ever have to contend with college sports — which is actually pretty big-time in Raleigh, but not quite like going up against 2 other major leagues.

Also, again, Raleigh had an NHL-ready arena on the way. Charlotte was in the process of actively crushing efforts to build a new arena (the non-hockey Charlotte Coliseum opened in ‘88), which would ultimately cost them the original Hornets, and it would be another decade before they moved forward with the downtown arena that eventually landed them a second NBA franchise.

The NHL played it the right way, given the three markets to choose from. The sad part is that Greensboro — which has had pro hockey for decades — was destroyed as a hockey market in the process and never recovered.

 

[Tawnos]

Raleigh is a considerably larger city than Greensboro, especially when you take the entire Triangle (two MSAs) into account. In addition to simply having more and wealthier people, it also has a larger business scene including a major biotech center, three large universities, and the state government. It’s both fast-growing and very stable.

Raleigh was also getting a new, NHL-quality arena. Even if Greensboro were somehow an equal market, it would never have landed an NHL team without a new arena.

Charlotte is bigger than Raleigh, but not so big that it can be home to 3 major league teams. They already had the Hornets and honeymoon-era Panthers, and even after 20 years of growth the city’s still not ready for another team. Raleigh was a wide open market, and will clearly never get another team as long as the NFL and NBA are in Charlotte (MLB is out of the question in either city). So the NHL knew it could plant its flag in Raleigh and only ever have to contend with college sports — which is actually pretty big-time in Raleigh, but not quite like going up against 2 other major leagues.

Also, again, Raleigh had an NHL-ready arena on the way. Charlotte was in the process of actively crushing efforts to build a new arena (the non-hockey Charlotte Coliseum opened in ‘88), which would ultimately cost them the original Hornets, and it would be another decade before they moved forward with the downtown arena that eventually landed them a second NBA franchise.

The NHL played it the right way, given the three markets to choose from. The sad part is that Greensboro — which has had pro hockey for decades — was destroyed as a hockey market in the process and never recovered.

I don't think the NHL would have a hard time going up against 2 major leagues in Charlotte if those leagues where NFL and MLB, but there's a reason why Denver is the smallest market with both an NBA and NHL team. Charlotte is getting into that range where I think it could work with both. The CSA should hit 3m people sometime in the next 5 years. That being said, with the team in Raleigh, I doubt it would ever happen. For one thing, the arena here is the same situation as Barclay's, Key Arena pre-renovation, and Talking Stick. For another, there are better places the NHL has to put teams than here at the moment. And while there's nothing on the front-burner at the moment, I don't think MLB is currently as out of the question for Charlotte as you make it sound. Wouldn't be surprised if Charlotte is a major player when/if MLB does another round of expansion. At the time of the Whalers move, though, you'd be right.

One thing I wanted to mention. If you're combining the Raleigh and Durham MSAs to talk about the population size, you have to do the same with Greensboro and Winston-Salem. But your point is still valid.

I was just looking at CSA population and didn't realize that the gap between Charlotte and the Research Triangle is larger than the gap between the Research Triangle and the Triad. That surprised me.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't think the NHL would have a hard time going up against 2 major leagues in Charlotte if those leagues where NFL and MLB, but there's a reason why Denver is the smallest market with both an NBA and NHL team. Charlotte is getting into that range where I think it could work with both. The CSA should hit 3m people sometime in the next 5 years. That being said, with the team in Raleigh, I doubt it would ever happen. For one thing, the arena here is the same situation as Barclay's, Key Arena pre-renovation, and Talking Stick. For another, there are better places the NHL has to put teams than here at the moment. And while there's nothing on the front-burner at the moment, I don't think MLB is currently as out of the question for Charlotte as you make it sound. Wouldn't be surprised if Charlotte is a major player when/if MLB does another round of expansion. At the time of the Whalers move, though, you'd be right.

One thing I wanted to mention. If you're combining the Raleigh and Durham MSAs to talk about the population size, you have to do the same with Greensboro and Winston-Salem. But your point is still valid.

I was just looking at CSA population and didn't realize that the gap between Charlotte and the Research Triangle is larger than the gap between the Research Triangle and the Triad. That surprised me.

I'm not sold on Charlotte and MLB. It takes a certain city dynamic to support 81 baseball games a year, even when the team is terrible, and I don't see that dynamic at all in Charlotte. The Panthers are a perfect fit for Charlotte, and the Hornets are just mediocre enough not to be an embarassment. IMO the fundamentals needed to properly support major league baseball are still at least one, if not two generations of development away.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not sold on Charlotte and MLB. It takes a certain city dynamic to support 81 baseball games a year, even when the team is terrible, and I don't see that dynamic at all in Charlotte. The Panthers are a perfect fit for Charlotte, and the Hornets are just mediocre enough not to be an embarassment. IMO the fundamentals needed to properly support major league baseball are still at least one, if not two generations of development away.

Eh I don’t really agree with your assessment of Charlotte, having also lived in 2 baseball cities in my life (both were much bigger, but you weren’t only talking about demographics and neither am I). I really believe a team would do well here. The financial base certainly exists for one. There’s a large appetite for high quality entertainment. And there’s a large appetite for fun things to do while drinking outside.

 

[sctvman]

 

[Jonas1235]

What else is there to do in Raleigh for sports? Should be 15k at every home game anyway.

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

What else is there to do in Raleigh for sports? Should be 15k at every home game anyway.

Ask Cam Newton.

 

[razor ray]

That’s awesome.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Ask Cam Newton.

Considering the Panthers play in Charlotte I'm not sure what relevance he has to this.

What else is there to do in Raleigh for sports? Should be 15k at every home game anyway.

Three major university athletic programs with rabid fanbases (NC State, Duke, and UNC) that see overlaps with their football and basketball seasons? Also two minor league baseball teams, one of which is arguably the most famous and one of the most well-supported teams in all of minor league baseball (that being the Durham Bulls. The other's the Carolina Mudcats). Also North Carolina FC, which plays in the USL Championship and has enough support that the owners are applying for an MLS expansion team.

 

[Svechhammer]

What else is there to do in Raleigh for sports? Should be 15k at every home game anyway.

College football and basketball are huge in this region, with followings that rival some of the biggest professional leagues in the US. And the Canes are always going to have a hard time going up against Duke and UNC basketball on any given night, because those two programs are always championship caliber teams, and the Canes play in a league where the games are pretty much family fun until April with tickets many times more expensive on an average night. As @garnetpalmetto said, there are also minor league teams in the area with baseball and soccer that create pretty much year round sports to follow here.

Ask Cam Newton.

Good lord.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If this playoff season has established anything, it’s that some people won’t hesitate to offer their opinions places they know absolutely nothing about.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Great news!

That's a huge bump. Given the off season started less than 24 hours ago, maybe that number can go up to 5000.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

College football and basketball are huge in this region, with followings that rival some of the biggest professional leagues in the US. And the Canes are always going to have a hard time going up against Duke and UNC basketball on any given night, because those two programs are always championship caliber teams, and the Canes play in a league where the games are pretty much family fun until April with tickets many times more expensive on an average night. As @garnetpalmetto said, there are also minor league teams in the area with baseball and soccer that create pretty much year round sports to follow here.


Good lord.

Exactly. Like let's look at the calendars for the Canes, the collegiate revenue sports, and our various minor league sports:

Carolina Hurricanes - October-April
Durham Bulls (Triple-A, MiLB) - April-September
Carolina Mudcats (Advanced-A, MiLB) April-September
North Carolina FC (USL Championship) March-October
Holly Springs Salamanders (Collegiate Summer Baseball) - May-August
UNC, NC State, and Duke Football - August-November
UNC, NC State, and Duke Men's Basketball - November-March

So yeah...year-round sports that people are passionate about. And I'm not including other collegiate programs that have strong attendance (UNC baseball, women's basketball, soccer, etc) or the smaller schools like NC Central, Shaw, Meredith, Peace, or St. Augustine's. Plenty of competition for fan dollars if the Canes are having a non-competitive year.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

unfortunately there are still skeptics who feel carolina is not a hockey market...

La Caroline, un marché de hockey? Pas sûr... - TVA Sports

and still people who bizarrely feel the need to inform us of that

 

[Dirty Old Man]

What else is there to do in Raleigh for sports? Should be 15k at every home game anyway.

True of Ottawa as well?

 

[Unsustainable]

Now over 5m in more ticket sales for next season, and the youth hockey programs are selling out.

 

[joelef]

Now over 5m in more ticket sales for next season, and the youth hockey programs are selling out.

don't show this to quebec fans

 

[Roboturner913]

What else is there to do in Raleigh for sports? Should be 15k at every home game anyway.

Uh....you're kidding right????

Good lord

 

[Murzu]

Now over 5m in more ticket sales for next season, and the youth hockey programs are selling out.

Great read, very impressive stuff. For a person like me that doesn't know anything about Raleigh, I was surprised to find out it's market potential as a hockey city. That article illustrated it well and opened my eyes. Excellent job Canes, on the ice and marketing-wise!

 

[Svechhammer]

Great read, very impressive stuff. For a person like me that doesn't know anything about Raleigh, I was surprised to find out it's market potential as a hockey city. That article illustrated it well and opened my eyes. Excellent job Canes, on the ice and marketing-wise!

It would not shock me to see what looks like a hockey explosion in NC over the next 5 years or so. The Checkers are up 2-1 in the Calder Cup Finals, and the Canes look like they're about to enter a period of sustained contention. If anything, its going to show just how badly Karmanos screwed things up before he was forced to sell.

 

[HisIceness]

Canes really marketed themselves well this season. They embraced the local community more than ever before (Petey Pablo goal song, shooting hoops with Duke and UNC basketball, grew the 'homegrown' series more), took advantage of the 'Bunch of Jerks' mantra, honored their Hartford Whalers past, invited Panthers/Hornets and Evander Holyfield to sound the siren (and Holyfield for a storm surge). At the beginning of last season there were still question marks surrounding ownership and it showed in the stands and on the ice. This season everything changed, some of it as the season wore on but the affects rippled through the organization. They are now more popular in North Carolina than ever and kids are taking notice.

And now with the Checkers team in the Calder Cup Finals this sets the stage for future success, if they can play their cards right this is the only the beginning of the revival of Hockey in Raleigh.

 

[drktmplr12]

Now over 5m in more ticket sales for next season, and the youth hockey programs are selling out.

i am a panthers fan because of 1996. not anything else that happened between then and now. i will be taking my kid to panthers games when they are old enough.

that's how fan bases are built, through the youth.

 

[cleanfront]

Exactly. Like let's look at the calendars for the Canes, the collegiate revenue sports, and our various minor league sports:

Carolina Hurricanes - October-April
Durham Bulls (Triple-A, MiLB) - April-September
Carolina Mudcats (Advanced-A, MiLB) April-September
North Carolina FC (USL Championship) March-October
Holly Springs Salamanders (Collegiate Summer Baseball) - May-August
UNC, NC State, and Duke Football - August-November
UNC, NC State, and Duke Men's Basketball - November-March

So yeah...year-round sports that people are passionate about. And I'm not including other collegiate programs that have strong attendance (UNC baseball, women's basketball, soccer, etc) or the smaller schools like NC Central, Shaw, Meredith, Peace, or St. Augustine's. Plenty of competition for fan dollars if the Canes are having a non-competitive year.

Another factor being forgotten is the weather. While it's not Arizona or California, it's temperate. I know a lot of fellow DC natives see NC as our outdoor playground. OBX stickers and vanity license plates are a dime a dozen in Northern Virginia. The mountains and Asheville to the west and Outer Banks, Wilmington to the east. Action sports from surfing, mountain biking, whitewater, world class kiteboarding/windsurfing to hunting and fishing can sure seem like a better use of time/money than mediocre hockey.

 

[Negan4Coach]

I'm not sold on Charlotte and MLB. It takes a certain city dynamic to support 81 baseball games a year, even when the team is terrible, and I don't see that dynamic at all in Charlotte. The Panthers are a perfect fit for Charlotte, and the Hornets are just mediocre enough not to be an embarassment. IMO the fundamentals needed to properly support major league baseball are still at least one, if not two generations of development away.

What would you think if they just made the Durham Bulls an MLB team and maybe rebuilt that stadium or built a new one in Durham?

 

[tarheelhockey]

What would you think if they just made the Durham Bulls an MLB team and maybe rebuilt that stadium or built a new one in Durham?

The Triangle can support an MLB team even less than Charlotte can, in my opinion. Charlotte's in the Baltimore/Pittsburgh class of cities population wise, wheras the Triangle is in the Nashville/Indianapolis class. It's about a 20-30% population difference. Then add in the ~20% wealth difference between Charlotte and the Triangle. Then the massive difference in corporate presence. Then add in how spread out the population of the Triangle is, the distance that most people would be driving just to get to one baseball game out of 81.

I can't think of a reason for MLB to pick the Triangle over Charlotte, or any number of other cities which would also be in competition.