Canes sold 3.6m in new business for next season

[The S5]

Checkers have been in Charlotte since 1955

Yes, and Charlotte is 2.5 hours from Raleigh.
The growth in both Charlotte and Triangle over the last 15 years has been huge. These people are coming from, by and large, the north. That, and the kids, are where the growth will come from.

 

[DanM]

The problem isn't quite "not making the playoffs". It's "not making the playoffs 10 straight years and many of those years being out of it by Christmas" that's the problem. It downright sucks when year after year the team isn't playing for anything meaningful by January.

There's no doubt that this isn't a market like Montreal or Toronto where people will show up no matter what the on-ice product is. Very few markets are like that and this is a non-traditional market (with more and more traditional fans moving here, like I did, though). The team doesn't need to win every year to keep fans onboard, but they can't go through 10 years of misery combined with an owner (Karmanos) that showed no interest in the team other than trying to sell it.

Your second bold line is fair. The team needs to have some level of consistent success. Doesn't mean playoffs every year, but can't go on a prolonged drought again.

Well said

I want to see that market thrive, a healthy league is good for all teams, and fans.

I will say I am impressed with how engaged the fans look right now, and with how well the team has drafted, I see prolonged success for sure, no more 10 year droughts. As a Leaf fan, I know how pissed off that can make a fan base lol

 

[Roboturner913]

Canes attendance jumped into the 17s the year after the Cup win and stayed in the 16s for quite a while, with their highest attendance in the 2012-13 season but falling after that. The 12-13 season was particularly disappointing since they were a strong #4 seed midway through the season and fell apart after that and finished out of the playoffs.

But that was a 6 out of 7 year stretch with average attendance of at least 16,043, despite the fact that 6 out of those 7 years they didn't make the playoffs. Oddly, a significant drop in the 2009-10 season despite the fact they had made a deep playoff run to end the 08-09 season. I can only assume that was due to economic factors since the economy tanked in 08.

But this market has proved that average attendance in the 16K range is very realistic if the team can be reasonably competitive. By reasonably competitive I mean somewhere north of 12th place. The team missed the playoffs narrowly several times between 06-07 and 11-12, twice on the last day of the season IIRC. If they can be at least in the playoff hunt most years attendance will be solid.

 

[powerstuck]

Oh there are still plenty who still hold on to this thinking, maybe not so much here anymore but other websites and outlets like Twitter. Whatever helps them sleep at night I guess.

The Triangle has always been a good market for the NHL to invest in. There's plenty of Hockey fans and there's more in nearby places like Charlotte, Greensboro, Charleston, Wilmington, etc. Players like it here and many of them still live here in retirement. Having a franchise that not only fails to qualify for the playoffs for 10 years but also constantly finishes just out but not bad enough for a top pick is death to any franchise in any sport.

I agree. But in a soon-to-be a 32 team league, 10 years drought is a realm of possibility. Having a greedy owner like Karmanos doesn't help either. The fact remains fans need to be loyal at a high degree. In a league where only 50% of teams make playoffs, and only one wins, no business can only rely on constant wins to keep fans coming in.

 

[zetajerk]

I agree. But in a soon-to-be a 32 team league, 10 years drought is a realm of possibility. Having a greedy owner like Karmanos doesn't help either. The fact remains fans need to be loyal at a high degree. In a league where only 50% of teams make playoffs, and only one wins, no business can only rely on constant wins to keep fans coming in.

And no business should expect or be entitled to peak profit when they're serving a terrible product in an environment full of alternatives.

The Canes don't rely on wins alone. Hope goes a long way, as does community engagement, marketing, things that had been lacking.

 

[JerseyMike34]

Winning helps a lot.

Totally does. Why would anyone ever question that.
So what compensation should the Golden Knights get?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I agree. But in a soon-to-be a 32 team league, 10 years drought is a realm of possibility. Having a greedy owner like Karmanos doesn't help either. The fact remains fans need to be loyal at a high degree. In a league where only 50% of teams make playoffs, and only one wins, no business can only rely on constant wins to keep fans coming in.

10 years without a Cup? Sure. But 10 years without playoff appearance is just being a badly run organization.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I agree. But in a soon-to-be a 32 team league, 10 years drought is a realm of possibility. Having a greedy owner like Karmanos doesn't help either. The fact remains fans need to be loyal at a high degree. In a league where only 50% of teams make playoffs, and only one wins, no business can only rely on constant wins to keep fans coming in.

I’d say any business model that relies on customers to be “loyal” through an extended period of poor company performance is a broken business model.

I assume the NHL knows this, and it’s part of why they stick with dumpster-fire organizations rather than letting them relocate at will 1990s-style. It’s on the league, not the fans, to solve the issue of underperformance.

 

[Deadpool8812]

It wasn't long ago people on this website had them pegged as a prime candidate for relocating to Québec. And everyone is still saying that Arizona and Florida should be put out of their misery. This is North American sports, winning is the best way to make money.

Even when Arizona was "winning," they were losing money. In fact, they have never turned a profit since entering the league. Not sure about Florida, but didn't they lose like $20m this past season?

 

[Grudy0]

Well that is usually correct. However, it has never worked in Phoenix. From 2009-12, the Coyotes were one of the better NHL teams. It never translated into increased ticket sales. With Miami and Phoenix, I think a big problem is the location of the arena. They have arenas far away from the core of the city, in the outlying suburbs. Even when Ottawa was good, they had many problems selling out games, since they build their arena in a bizarre location.

But for the Coyotes, it's worse than the arena location.

Even though the Coyotes were good from 2009-2012, the bankruptcy from Jerry Moyes was looming over the franchise. I can understand fans being reticent to support a team that appeared to be lame duck as opposed to being excited that their team was doing well. The losses may have in fact been due to being far away from the main population base of the area, but the support was more due to the fact that there was an axe over the franchise the moment the team filed for bankruptcy.

 

[Hooby Dooby Doo]

Even when Arizona was "winning," they were losing money. In fact, they have never turned a profit since entering the league. Not sure about Florida, but didn't they lose like $20m this past season?

Florida's owner is a billionaire. Nothing more than a tax write off.

 

[Fenway]

I would hope Dundon did that research before plunking down the $420M to buy the team.

Well................he researched the AAF as well

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Even when Arizona was "winning," they were losing money. In fact, they have never turned a profit since entering the league. Not sure about Florida, but didn't they lose like $20m this past season?

When Arizona had the few years in a row where they weren’t out of playoff contention in November, they were very close to breaking even. It takes time to grow everything, they need sustained success. Florida has made playoffs 2 times since 2000. Of course they’re going to be bleeding money. Look at the Marlins, Miami is treating them the same way. Much like Karmanos, the Panthers never had any investment in the team until the hiring of Quenneville and the suspected future pursuit of Bob and Breadman.

Carolina, despite the $3 million in 2019-2020 STH sales and a deep playoff run with a good team still hasn’t made a net profit. I’m fairly certain they’re still $2 million under. But look at how much they’ve done after just one season of being good after a decade of early golfing. You’re expecting them to have a roof built before the foundation is laid. They just have to build off of it now.

 

[Svechhammer]

You have to remember that hockey is relatively new to native North Carolinian's and transplants come with their own favorite team.
Youth hockey is growing in the Triangle, but was largely ignored with Karmanos at the helm. He was pumping his money into Detroit youth hockey. Now that Dundon is in charge, he sees the value in building the future fanbase through the kids.
Winning is also important to convert some of the transplants.

Well this isn't true at all. Hockey has existed in Raleigh continuously for the past 28 years between the Raleigh IceCaps of the ECHL and the Carolina Hurricanes. The IceCaps played in Dorton Arena, which is located within the State Fairgrounds campus that PNC Arena is adjacent to, sharing many of the same parking lots. And its older if you go out to Greensboro (where the Generals existed from 1959-1977 before being brought back in 1999) or Charlotte, where the Checkers have existed since 1955. Minor league hockey has deep roots in this region.

As for the Canes, I can speak for myself and say I bought season tickets for next year after being away the past few. The team over the last few years just wasn't worth spending money to watch. Karmanos didn't care about the talent, he just cared about keeping expenses low, so I protested with my wallet, knowing the second they gave me a reason to invest, I would do so. And now, I'm a full season ticket holder for next year, and I have run into numerous people who have shared a similar thought. Yes, there is a lot of bandwagoners with this run, which you expect anywhere, but there are also A LOT of old time fans who are coming back out. Which shows that hockey here is strong when you have the fans engaged. Given them a reason to care and they'll return the favor. And for the first time in a long ass time, I actually believe that ownership here actually cares to put a winning team on the ice.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Carolina, despite the $3 million in 2019-2020 STH sales and a deep playoff run with a good team still hasn’t made a net profit. I’m fairly certain they’re still $2 million under.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting that $2M figure?

 

[Svechhammer]

Out of curiosity, where are you getting that $2M figure?

There's also the question on where the $3.6 million in new STH sales are being applied. That is, does it count toward this year's finances, or next year?

Either way, the fact we're even coming close to breaking even after how little momentum there was 12 months ago is staggering. To say it was stagnant would be an understatement. And now, hell the police are closing the streets around our busiest bar scene for hockey games. Which is something I can't remember happening with the Panthers Super Bowl runs, or any of the deep tournament runs by the local college basketball teams, which have long had the reputation of "lets see if you still care when UNC/Duke/NCSU is playing"

 

[Pilky01]

It wasn't long ago people on this website had them pegged as a prime candidate for relocating to Québec. And everyone is still saying that Arizona and Florida should be put out of their misery. This is North American sports, winning is the best way to make money.

So is the expectation here is that the Hurricanes will continue to win?

This is such a bad take. Winning is temporary. Especially in the crapshoot that is the salary capped NHL.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So is the expectation here is that the Hurricanes will continue to win?

This is such a bad take. Winning is temporary. Especially in the crapshoot that is the salary capped NHL.

Gee, it sure would be nice if they can manage to have a relevant season more than 10% of the time.

If they can't, there's something deeply wrong with the management of the organization.

 

[Tawnos]

Checkers have been in Charlotte since 1955

And every time I've gone to a Checkers game with a group of people in the ~10 years I've lived here, it's someone's first hockey game ever. People always overestimate the impact a minor league team has on hockey awareness in a city.

Anyway, this is great for the Canes. That's in addition to the $14-15m, at least, that they'll have pulled in from the playoffs. That money goes against lower costs, since the playoff pool is significantly smaller than payroll is. Depending on who you believe, the Canes will either have been profitable this year or skirting right on that edge. With that, if they do make the SCF, it's hard to imagine that they don't get into the black, not including this $3.6m cited here, since that's really next year's revenue. The trick here is going to be sustaining the success, so they can build true lasting support.

 

[sctvman]

The market has more untapped potential than almost any NHL market. The TV ratings are the highest they’ve been in a decade. They’ve been getting 7s and 8s for playoff games when the regular season numbers are often below 1.

Most of their fan base is in Wake and Johnston Counties, 2 of the 3 counties in the Raleigh metro area. They still have room to grow in the rest of the market. Durham and Chapel Hill are part of a different MSA from Raleigh.

Wake and Johnston are the easiest counties to get people from for a weeknight game. For the weekend games, they can build on this run and get more people from all over the area.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Out of curiosity, where are you getting that $2M figure?

Based on a total loss around $5 million last and assumption of financial status quo in addition to publicized financial gain of 3 million. Their finances since the end of last season and First Quarter of 2019 really haven’t changed from what I read based on how things were run under Dundon

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So is the expectation here is that the Hurricanes will continue to win?

This is such a bad take. Winning is temporary. Especially in the crapshoot that is the salary capped NHL.

Bad take? Get real, guy. Winning is temporary? St. Louis has missed playoffs 9 times since they were founded in 1967. Sharks have missed it 5 times since their inception. Stanley Cup contending windows don’t last forever, but being a very competitive team is different. Carolina hasn’t been competitive in over a decade.

 

[tony d]

Good to see this, I've always had a soft spot for that market. Hope to see them there for a long time to come, this spring's run certainly has helped.

 

[Pilky01]

Bad take? Get real, guy. Winning is temporary? St. Louis has missed playoffs 9 times since they were founded in 1967. Sharks have missed it 5 times since their inception. Stanley Cup contending windows don’t last forever, but being a very competitive team is different. Carolina hasn’t been competitive in over a decade.

You've convinced me.

All Carolina needs to do is never miss the playoffs and they will be a very strong franchise.

Easy peasy. Don't know why more franchises haven't caught on.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

You've convinced me.

All Carolina needs to do is never miss the playoffs and they will be a very strong franchise.

Easy peasy. Don't know why more franchises haven't caught on.

pretty much every franchise but buffalo caught on