Can someone please explain the JVR love in to me?

[Mess]

Similar in what way? You're the master at manipulating stats and saying nothing. What's his ppg in the last three years vs Bozaks and Kessel's? It's funny that Kessel at his absolute worst apparently is still better than building block JVR who brings nothing else to the table.

Are you also a big proponent of Bozaks then? Very similar stats for similar contracts and Bozak also brings face offs and penalty kills.

JVR is arguably the worst floater on that line, is terrible defensively and offensively worse than Kessel at his absolute worst. Much worse still in my opinion is that he has the size to be something special yet is arguably the softest player on the line.

I'm not manipulating anything by presenting verifiable actual stats. Posting goals, assists, age and cap hit is not manipulation its stating facts.

JVR is a keeper in the eyes of Leaf management because they believe he is still developing as he just turned 25, is a top line capable player who can score 30 goals a year and is on a real good cap contract at @$4.25 mil per. IMO

If a team can have JVR and Kadri for $8 mil cap or Kessel at similar then who produces more offense for the same cap hit JVR+Kadri or Kessel?

JVR is a good bang for your cap buck player.

 

[The Apologist]

I'm not manipulating anything by presenting verifiable actual stats. Posting goals, assists, age and cap hit is not manipulation its stating facts.

JVR is a keeper in the eyes of Leaf management because they believe he is still developing as he just turned 25, is a top line capable player who can score 30 goals a year and is on a real good cap contract at @$4.25 mil per. IMO

If a team can have JVR and Kadri for $8 mil cap or Kessel at similar then who produces more offense for the same cap hit JVR+Kadri or Kessel?

That's assuming you believe JVR would produce at that pace without Kessel.
Personally if I'm keeping one soft player who can't play defence and doesn't care, I'm keeping the ppg guy.

And yes, manipulating stats because in reality JVR historically is nowhere near Kessel's production level.

 

[yubbers]

So now a Kessel has to be a center and left winger too?

 

[The Apologist]

So now a Kessel has to be a center and left winger too?

Especially when for half the price than what JVR makes floating around the ice, we can have both Winnik and Santorelli.

What would you rather have? One JVR, or a winnik and Santo?!?

 

[Ovate]

People keep talking about how great his contract is like it's a reason to keep him around in the rebuild. It's the exact opposite. 4.25 or 7.25 doesn't matter if we're 5-10 million under cap either way, but it does increase his trade value.

Not to mention that he'll have a much higher cap hit and be much older by the time the rebuild is done.

 

[TankNationTillDeath]

Can someone please explain it to me?
Two thirds of our top line gets ripped apart daily on these boards yet this guy is held up as one of the building pieces.

He's worse offensively than Kessel, not much better than Bozak.

He's apparently bigger and tougher but I don't see it. Guy plays soft, is terrible defensively, is just as guilty of living off Kessel as anyone else and disappears for weeks at a time, but hey he has a good contract right?

I just don't get how so many see him as a building piece while ripping into everyone else?

I can't explain it.. he has a POS attitude and horrible haircut

 

[King Leaf]

I can try to explain it....

Well first off, regarding Kessel, some people do have this irrational hate for the guy that I don't quite understand. I personally like Kessel, but that doesn't mean we have to keep him. I think for his cap hit, the position our organization is in right now (cusp of a rebuild) and His age, it would be in our best interests to trade him now while his value is at its peak. I think he will slow down significantly in 4 years, to the point where he will still be a good scorer, but not a PPG, 35 goal scorer, though I could be wrong. Trading Kessel now can net us a couple really good pieces to get the rebuild going.

Bozak is not a bad player by any means, people just hate him because he's mentioned in the same breath as Kessel and JvR when he isn't in that calibre of player. He's benefited the most from his linemates, and I think in reality he's best suited to be a second-liner at best. He too can get good value now, while his numbers have been inflated by playing with Kessel for the past few years.

JvR is the youngest of the 3, and arguably has the most diverse skillset. He's fast, has good hands, size, strength, passing, vision. He has all the tools to be a dominant force on the ice. Even if he doesn't put up PPG, 60-70 points and overpowering the other team at the same time is extremely valuable. With his contract, and his age, I think management and fans are willing to see how he progresses over the next couple of years, especially with a new coach. If we got someone like Babcock who could light a fire under JvR, we'd have one helluva player. If it doesn't work out that way, we can flip him with a year left on his deal and still bring back a lot. Keeping him for the next year or two is very low-risk. Again, it's not necessarily about the points. If he played with some intensity he'd be incredibly hard to separate from the puck moving through the neutral zone and down low, and he can make plays and finish around the net too. If he reaches his potential I personally believe he's a more valuable player than Kessel. Kessel is amazing, but he doesn't have enough tools to contribute meaningfully all over the ice (but where he does contribute, he's a beast).

 

[hf27]

Similar in what way? You're the master at manipulating stats and saying nothing. What's his ppg in the last three years vs Bozaks and Kessel's? It's funny that Kessel at his absolute worst apparently is still better than building block JVR who brings nothing else to the table.

Are you also a big proponent of Bozaks then? Very similar stats for similar contracts and Bozak also brings face offs and penalty kills.

JVR is arguably the worst floater on that line, is terrible defensively and offensively worse than Kessel at his absolute worst. Much worse still in my opinion is that he has the size to be something special yet is arguably the softest player on the line.

how do you conclude this!?

 

[Menzinger]

Capable of 30 goals, 60 points and can produce in the playoffs. And all for under 5 million per year.

Yes we all want "true" 200 foot players, but the reality the vast majority of the players out there simply aren't that way.

 

[The Apologist]

Capable of 30 goals, 60 points and can produce in the playoffs. And all for under 5 million per year.

Yes we all want "true" 200 foot players, but the reality the vast majority of the players out there simply aren't that way.

Define 'capable'.

Jason Blake was also 'capable' of 40 goals. It wasn't very likely however.

 

[The Apologist]

how do you conclude this!?

The offence is clear as day. Kessel is arguably at his worst right now and JVR still can't catch him. Career wise, Kessel regularly out scores him by 20-30 points.

As far as floating, hell just watch him. Take away the reputation that he might someday be this powerful two way guy and base it on his actual play. To steal a line from Mick Foley 'I was just reading a pamphlet on JVR's greatest hits'

 

[The_Chosen_One]

I'd consider trading JVR. Say, a first rounder, young prospect with top line potential and a bit more.

 

[The Apologist]

I can try to explain it....

Well first off, regarding Kessel, some people do have this irrational hate for the guy that I don't quite understand. I personally like Kessel, but that doesn't mean we have to keep him. I think for his cap hit, the position our organization is in right now (cusp of a rebuild) and His age, it would be in our best interests to trade him now while his value is at its peak. I think he will slow down significantly in 4 years, to the point where he will still be a good scorer, but not a PPG, 35 goal scorer, though I could be wrong. Trading Kessel now can net us a couple really good pieces to get the rebuild going.

Bozak is not a bad player by any means, people just hate him because he's mentioned in the same breath as Kessel and JvR when he isn't in that calibre of player. He's benefited the most from his linemates, and I think in reality he's best suited to be a second-liner at best. He too can get good value now, while his numbers have been inflated by playing with Kessel for the past few years.

JvR is the youngest of the 3, and arguably has the most diverse skillset. He's fast, has good hands, size, strength, passing, vision. He has all the tools to be a dominant force on the ice. Even if he doesn't put up PPG, 60-70 points and overpowering the other team at the same time is extremely valuable. With his contract, and his age, I think management and fans are willing to see how he progresses over the next couple of years, especially with a new coach. If we got someone like Babcock who could light a fire under JvR, we'd have one helluva player. If it doesn't work out that way, we can flip him with a year left on his deal and still bring back a lot. Keeping him for the next year or two is very low-risk. Again, it's not necessarily about the points. If he played with some intensity he'd be incredibly hard to separate from the puck moving through the neutral zone and down low, and he can make plays and finish around the net too. If he reaches his potential I personally believe he's a more valuable player than Kessel. Kessel is amazing, but he doesn't have enough tools to contribute meaningfully all over the ice (but where he does contribute, he's a beast).

Absolutely agree on Bozak, mostly on Kessel. I'm actually more intrigued to see what a coach like Babcock could do with a guy like Kessel.

I can see the 'wait and see' approach with JVR, fair enough, but why do so many here include him as an essential building block? How many myths about his play are accepted as truth? People include him in the same category as Phil Kessel or better based on what? How many sentences about JVR (even above) start with the word IF?

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

His height and contract.

 

[ALine]

JVR has been a underwhelming. You would hope a guy with tools would show more willingness to use those. A pretty rare combination of size, speed and skill. Could be a dominant player. At his age he still has the potential to develop those into his game. It's just not something you see with any sort of consistency. I'm don't think this is a player other teams worry about too much.

His cap hit being relatively low doesn't do much for us, but could be an enticing contract for a playoff team.

Not trying to sound too low on JVR, he has potential for some growth and maturity as a player, if he realizes what can make him successful. It's sort of like the Tyler Myers talk, has the ability, just waiting on him to get mean out there. But let's not say he is something he is not at this point. There are some question marks here going forward.

 

[The Apologist]

JVR has been a underwhelming. You would hope a guy with tools would show more willingness to use those. A pretty rare combination of size, speed and skill. Could be a dominant player. At his age he still has the potential to develop those into his game. It's just not something you see with any sort of consistency. I'm don't think this is a player other teams worry about too much.

His cap hit being relatively low doesn't do much for us, but could be an enticing contract for a playoff team.

Not trying to sound too low on JVR, he has potential for some growth and maturity as a player, if he realizes what can make him successful. It's sort of like the Tyler Myers talk, has the ability, just waiting on him to get mean out there. But let's not say he is something he is not at this point. There are some question marks here going forward.

Very well put.

 

[ToneBone03]

The love for JVR boils down to size, skill, & his darling contract.

If he were to be a FA this offseason he would easily command $6M+ per year.

 

[Tak7]

30 goal scorer last year.

Young enough, on a good enough deal, with enough talent and potential upside, that you are okay with holding onto him.

Agree that he's been underwhelming this year, but who hasn't? Bit harsh to be judging the merits of a 24 year old based on ~60 games worth of performances.

I do think he gets a free pass from a lot of ppl here, but I also think he gets that pass because people reasonably believe he can turn into #1 winger

 

[The Apologist]

30 goal scorer last year.

Young enough, on a good enough deal, with enough talent and potential upside, that you are okay with holding onto him.

Agree that he's been underwhelming this year, but who hasn't? Bit harsh to be judging the merits of a 24 year old based on ~60 games worth of performances.

I do think he gets a free pass from a lot of ppl here, but I also think he gets that pass because people reasonably believe he can turn into #1 winger

And I agree he could, but the way many talk about him on here you'd think he was already a sure **** can't miss all star and building block. Hell Kadri gets more hate and does arguably everything JVR is supposed to do but better. An hes cheaper...

 

[diceman934]

Can someone please explain it to me?
Two thirds of our top line gets ripped apart daily on these boards yet this guy is held up as one of the building pieces.

He's worse offensively than Kessel, not much better than Bozak.

He's apparently bigger and tougher but I don't see it. Guy plays soft, is terrible defensively, is just as guilty of living off Kessel as anyone else and disappears for weeks at a time, but hey he has a good contract right?


I just don't get how so many see him as a building piece while ripping into everyone else?

Agree .....

He needs to be moved as well as he is a big part of the I Do Not Care group.

Last year I said the same thing and had most everyone rip me for saying it.

He is soft and does not compete hard in most games....should be an easy piece to move.

 

[Tak7]

And I agree he could, but the way many talk about him on here you'd think he was already a sure **** can't miss all star and building block. Hell Kadri gets more hate and does arguably everything JVR is supposed to do but better. An hes cheaper...

As mentioned above, because of his age and contract, he is a building block moving forward.

It's logical to hold onto him and see what he becomes

 

[bobbyflex]

no JvR love here. For the past 2 months he's been going through the motions. At times looking like he's doing his best not to break a sweat. He played well last here to make team USA. Besides showing short bursts of speed at rare times, he's an absolutely horrendous skater. Move him while other teams still think he's valuable.

 

[Tak7]

no JvR love here. For the past 2 months he's been going through the motions. At times looking like he's doing his best not to break a sweat. He played well last here to make team USA. Besides showing short bursts of speed at rare times, he's an absolutely horrendous skater. Move him while other teams still think he's valuable.

^not picking on you specifically, but this is the very problem with our fanbase.

Snap judgments made on impulse. Has he been pathetic? Sure. Should we sign off on him as remaining pathetic for the rest of his career? Hell no.

Plus he's not the only one who has struggled here. Would be much easier to zero in on him & criticize him with a grandstroke if the team was firing on all cylinders and he was struggling. But that's not the case.

 

[hotpaws]

Agree .....

He needs to be moved as well as he is a big part of the I Do Not Care group.

Last year I said the same thing and had most everyone rip me for saying it.

He is soft and does not compete hard in most games....should be an easy piece to move.

and that's the reason the flyers deemed him expendable

the talents there but he's soft and the desire to compete comes and goes , i'd shop him between now and the start of next season to see what the offers are

no rush to move him however and depending on what the return is for a possible Kessel trade he's still young enough to develop into a more complete player if we can bring in the right type of leaders for him to follow

 

[Kurisu]

Agree .....

He needs to be moved as well as he is a big part of the I Do Not Care group.

Last year I said the same thing and had most everyone rip me for saying it.

He is soft and does not compete hard in most games....should be an easy piece to move.

Reilly is soft, no one's pushing him off the door. He's had a bad strech including the entire team, we can't just trade the entire team. Whether you like the team or not, they're are still some players of value here that are worth keeping.