Prospect Info: Cale Makar - D [4th Overall] Part II: #OrrIsTheFloor Edition

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Avsfan1921

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To me, Makar hasn’t found his game offensively yet but his mistakes are nothing that every other d-man is making on this team on a daily basis. They all need to clean up their games. The defensive zone giveaways leading to chances and goals are what is holding this team back from performing near its capabilities imo.

Makar has been one of the better defensemen on the team in transitioning the puck once he gets it instead of giving it away or icing it outside of a few glaring instances. But again, Every single dman is in the same boat so far this year in regards to giveaways.
 

RockLobster

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I feel like I’ve seen TMV tweet that Makar has “had his worst game in the NHL” more than once so far this season. Now it’s entirely possible I’m lumping others in and attributing it to him, absolutely. My overall point being that while he’s putting up points, and that is good, he’s still looked *VERY* much like a rookie this year.

However, that being said, the fact he’s putting up points while he still hasn’t settled and “found his groove” should be seen as a positive. He’s still finding ways to contribute. I think he should just have some tempered expectations (as I said on more than one occasion in the offseason).
 

cgf

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It probably will be a blessing that Makar is in his 2nd year of his ELC once it comes time to sign him to an extension.

Unfortunately, I suspect that if the avs aren't willing to pay for potential on a longterm deal with Cale, we'll see him signing a bridge deal.
Remember that Makar didn't look like a world beater during his first year in NCAA then took over the following year. I expect him to do the same in the NHL.

His playoff performance was overblown in people's mind.

I remember when I made this same post 6-9 months ago...it certainly got a different reaction at that time :laugh:
 

Balthazar

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I remember when I made this same post 6-9 months ago...it certainly got a different reaction at that time :laugh:

Context is important. Were you making this post as part of the "re-sign Barrie" propaganda? :squint:
 
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Avsboy

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Re-signing Barrie would've been a good move even if Cale were dominant right out of the gates :nod:

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Avs71

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Although production is very important it is not all that matter. Except for maybe one Makar's points are very uneventful and kind of gimmies. He has not been that great since the start of the year except for one game.
There is no such thing as this, and if there was, why can't someone like Girard rack up points?

Makar's job this season is to replace Barrie's production, and so far he has 7 points in 8 games. The team is 7-0-1. He is currently doing what should be reasonably expected of him.

As for the Makar is benefiting from playing with the top line argument, these are the same linemates that Barrie used to "become a top-5 offensive defenceman" in the NHL.

Barrie had 88 assists in his last two years in Colorado. 54 of those assists came off a Landeskog, MacKinnon, or Rantanen goal. This shouldn't be considered a bad thing, the same way Makar's points shouldn't be discounted because he plays with the best players. Makar and Barrie both have world class puck skills to keep up with some of the best forwards in the NHL. It is not an easy thing to do, and it is extremely valuable.
 

AllAboutAvs

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There is no such thing as this, and if there was, why can't someone like Girard rack up points?

Makar's job this season is to replace Barrie's production, and so far he has 7 points in 8 games. The team is 7-0-1. He is currently doing what should be reasonably expected of him.

As for the Makar is benefiting from playing with the top line argument, these are the same linemates that Barrie used to "become a top-5 offensive defenceman" in the NHL.

Barrie had 88 assists in his last two years in Colorado. 54 of those assists came off a Landeskog, MacKinnon, or Rantanen goal. This shouldn't be considered a bad thing, the same way Makar's points shouldn't be discounted because he plays with the best players. Makar and Barrie both have world class puck skills to keep up with some of the best forwards in the NHL. It is not an easy thing to do, and it is extremely valuable.
That's not what I meant at all. I meant that all but one point I think were basically just meaningless passes in the neutral zone, defensive zone and so forth compared to his points during the playoffs last year. The ones this year are not from great plays like Girard's assist last night for example. I don't mean to take anything away from him because he still does have 7 points in 8 games but let's not pretend that he is an offensive dynamo because he already has 7 pts.
 
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MarkT

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Sending Makar to the AHL :laugh:


Now I've probably heard it all

Exactly. The idea is so absurd that I'm surprised people are even bothering to write long explanations as to why Makar should STAY in the NHL.

It's too ridiculous entertain.

Yeah, who ever heard of a 20 year old rookie being send down to the AHL for seasoning? That's never happened in the history of the NHL! :rolleyes:

This times 100. Everyone in the team is making mistakes defensively right now. I could easily make the argument that Rantanen has been blowing tons of assignments defensively that have led to goals. Go watch the tape on some of the goals against when he is on the ice and you'll be blown away at how bad some of Rants d zone coverages are that lead to crazy scrambling.

Zadorov multiple errors. Graves has had his fair share. Even Girard had a miserable game against Washington recently.

It's not fair to single out a 20 year old who has looked fine in the majority of his games. For a couple bad road games where other coaches picked and choosed who they sent out against him.

Which of those players can be sent to the AHL without clearing waivers? Which of those players is a 20 year old rookie? I've talked many times in other threads about the top line (Rantanen included) playing poorly defensively. I even mentioned it in the very post that got this whole discussion started (also mentioned Graves struggling), yet people are acting like it's only been about Makar. Z has had his errors, yes. He also sat a game. Graves has had his errors too, but has been good in other situations like the PK. Girard has had his moments, but has also been the best player on the team at times. Makar has had a lot of poor defensive plays, but.... has a lot of 2nd assists?

To me, Makar hasn’t found his game offensively yet but his mistakes are nothing that every other d-man is making on this team on a daily basis. They all need to clean up their games. The defensive zone giveaways leading to chances and goals are what is holding this team back from performing near its capabilities imo.

Makar has been one of the better defensemen on the team in transitioning the puck once he gets it instead of giving it away or icing it outside of a few glaring instances. But again, Every single dman is in the same boat so far this year in regards to giveaways.

Maybe you and I have watched different games. If every one of our defensemen were playing like Makar in our own zone, there's no way we'd have won so many games.

To me, he's looked consistently a step behind the play defensively, he's been really struggling to cover his man, he's getting fooled by fakes and misdirection, he's looked lost when the defensive structure breaks down. Yes, the team as a whole has looked shaky at times in their own zone, and other defensemen have certainly made errors. I'm not denying that.
 

MacBradley

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Yeah, who ever heard of a 20 year old rookie being send down to the AHL for seasoning? That's never happened in the history of the NHL! :rolleyes:

Cut the sarcasm. Your argument is a horrible logical fallacy and you know it. Being 20 years old isn't the only qualifier for whether a player is sent to the AHL or not. You can start with the list of 20 year old Dmen that get sent down right after scoring 7 points in their first 8 games.
 

Avsfan1921

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Maybe you and I have watched different games. If every one of our defensemen were playing like Makar in our own zone, there's no way we'd have won so many games.

To me, he's looked consistently a step behind the play defensively, he's been really struggling to cover his man, he's getting fooled by fakes and misdirection, he's looked lost when the defensive structure breaks down. Yes, the team as a whole has looked shaky at times in their own zone, and other defensemen have certainly made errors. I'm not denying that.

Simply put, we shouldn’t have the record we do and we are very fortunate to have gotten the scoring support and goaltending we have so far this season. If you believe that the others are not committing the same errors on a nightly basis then I don’t know what to say because right now, the fact is, every defenceman on this team is making two to three head shaking plays per game. That will not change with Barberio, Timmins, or anyone else on the current roster replacing him. We need this group as a whole to shape up and hold each other accountable. Until there is someone who who steps up that can transition as well as him and defend better than him I can’t see why they’d send him down.
 

Avsfan1921

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I’ve seen Makar get chassed behind the net and many times he couldn’t find the escape. Forwards would not attempt that with most other D because they would be made to look like fools. Makar needs to adjust to the pressure of a NHL forecheck. Hopefully our coaching staff can work on that with him.
I agree with you. His transition game has been good so far but has been shaky against heavy forechecking for sure
 

chet1926

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Yeah, who ever heard of a 20 year old rookie being send down to the AHL for seasoning? That's never happened in the history of the NHL! :rolleyes:



Which of those players can be sent to the AHL without clearing waivers? Which of those players is a 20 year old rookie? I've talked many times in other threads about the top line (Rantanen included) playing poorly defensively. I even mentioned it in the very post that got this whole discussion started (also mentioned Graves struggling), yet people are acting like it's only been about Makar. Z has had his errors, yes. He also sat a game. Graves has had his errors too, but has been good in other situations like the PK. Girard has had his moments, but has also been the best player on the team at times. Makar has had a lot of poor defensive plays, but.... has a lot of 2nd assists?



Maybe you and I have watched different games. If every one of our defensemen were playing like Makar in our own zone, there's no way we'd have won so many games.

To me, he's looked consistently a step behind the play defensively, he's been really struggling to cover his man, he's getting fooled by fakes and misdirection, he's looked lost when the defensive structure breaks down. Yes, the team as a whole has looked shaky at times in their own zone, and other defensemen have certainly made errors. I'm not denying that.
What does waivers have to do with anything? Just because you are able to go to the minors without consequences doesn't mean that the first time you hit a rough patch you need to be sent there. When he's bad he isn't even the worst dman, he is still easily better than Graves. And when he plays well like he did the first 5 games he is one of the top 3, no question. There is absolutely no reason to demote him. Hell a week ago the only dman that was playing better than him was Girard. He had 2 or 3 rough games. Oh no a 20 year old is inconsistent... He's not allowed to do that...

I don't care about what kind of points he is getting. Last I checked in order to get a point you have to do something that leads to getting a goal. You don't get a point by sitting on the bench. Points are points you did something to help the team get a goal.

This season is going to be a learning experience and it's up to the coaching staff to make sure they monitor his minutes. If he's struggling a 15 minutes night is more than fine. Feed him easy minutes to get his confidence going. If he's playing well, 20-22 minutes with lots of PP time. It's not rocket science. He isn't going to gain anything by going to the minors to get run at by AHL goons. Not to mention the fact him off the roster makes our team worse. You don't send players to the minors that are capable of being your best dman on any given night. So what if he had some nights that are struggles.
 

flyfysher

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That's fair. Also Barrie has 0 goal and 4 assists in 9 games. So far so good.

God forbid that we'd have kept Barrie. If that were the case then Barrie would have replaced Jost as our resident whipping boy with such mediocre stats. After all, everyone knows how demanding Avs fans are. Then again, there are a lot of loyal Barrie fans. So nah. Jost retains the title.
 

Perratrooper

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I think a big part of why he might be struggling to find his game is because we’ve been leading almost every game. Makar’s best play in the NCAA is when he got to open things up and generate opportunities. I think this will ultimately be good for his development, but this season will likely be one of many adjustments.
 

chet1926

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Not really. Babcock's neutering him, basically using him like Bednar did his first year here.
Well he is a defensive liability who has consistent effort issues. Not surprised to hear Babcock is reeling him in.

Barrie's offense is wonderful. But I do not miss the lackadaisical floating and constantly being outworked and out muscled in the defensive end.
 

MarkT

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Cut the sarcasm. Your argument is a horrible logical fallacy and you know it. Being 20 years old isn't the only qualifier for whether a player is sent to the AHL or not. You can start with the list of 20 year old Dmen that get sent down right after scoring 7 points in their first 8 games.

I only used sarcasm because the people I was replying to were laughing at my opinion as if it's not even worth discussing. It's odd that you can recognize that I was being sarcastic, but then treat my sarcastic joke as if it was a complete argument. Obviously I don't believe being 20 is all that matters. Try reading some other things I've written in this post if you have any interest in actually understanding my argument.

Simply put, we shouldn’t have the record we do and we are very fortunate to have gotten the scoring support and goaltending we have so far this season. If you believe that the others are not committing the same errors on a nightly basis then I don’t know what to say because right now, the fact is, every defenceman on this team is making two to three head shaking plays per game. That will not change with Barberio, Timmins, or anyone else on the current roster replacing him. We need this group as a whole to shape up and hold each other accountable. Until there is someone who who steps up that can transition as well as him and defend better than him I can’t see why they’d send him down.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I have doubts that you actually watched every game.

What does waivers have to do with anything? Just because you are able to go to the minors without consequences doesn't mean that the first time you hit a rough patch you need to be sent there. When he's bad he isn't even the worst dman, he is still easily better than Graves. And when he plays well like he did the first 5 games he is one of the top 3, no question. There is absolutely no reason to demote him. Hell a week ago the only dman that was playing better than him was Girard. He had 2 or 3 rough games. Oh no a 20 year old is inconsistent... He's not allowed to do that...

What do waivers have to do with it? Hmmm... well being waivers-free means that if a player needs to work on their game against less strong opponents, then he can be sent to the AHL to do so. If he's waivers-eligible, it means you can't do that without risking losing him. I thought that would be obvious, but apparently not.

So you mention Graves. If he has indeed been bad (he's at least been great on the PK though), there are limited options. You can waive him, but he might get claimed, so that's probably not worth it. You can let him play through it. Or you can sit him. If you sit him, he doesn't get a chance to play, which is generally what young players need to get better. So the solution for Graves is to let him keep playing in a small role. The solution for Makar is to send him down if he doesn't improve soon. See the difference?

As for his being inconsistent, I think he's had poor defensive plays in every game, and at times has looked very much like a player who doesn't belong in the NHL. Yes, 20 year olds will look like that, but if they're not named Makar and they haven't been putting up 2nd assists, no one would bat an eye to such a player being sent down.

I don't care about what kind of points he is getting. Last I checked in order to get a point you have to do something that leads to getting a goal. You don't get a point by sitting on the bench. Points are points you did something to help the team get a goal.

Are you serious? If, let's say Cole makes a routine, easy pass to Girard, then Girard skates into the offensive zone, makes an amazing move, then passes it to MacKinnon who makes another amazing move followed by a wicked shot to score. In that scenario, Cole, gets an assist, yet didn't do anything to earn that point that every single other NHL player could have done.

This season is going to be a learning experience and it's up to the coaching staff to make sure they monitor his minutes. If he's struggling a 15 minutes night is more than fine. Feed him easy minutes to get his confidence going. If he's playing well, 20-22 minutes with lots of PP time. It's not rocket science. He isn't going to gain anything by going to the minors to get run at by AHL goons. Not to mention the fact him off the roster makes our team worse. You don't send players to the minors that are capable of being your best dman on any given night. So what if he had some nights that are struggles.

Responding to the bolded: Okay, you know nothing about developing players. I get it now. Should Rantanen have been in the NHL from the start? Should Kaut be on the team right now? How about Byram? Or is Makar a special case where he's so amazing that he has nothing to gain from playing in the AHL? Or, do you just think the AHL is a complete garbage league full of goons where nobody develops?
 

AllAboutAvs

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Well he is a defensive liability who has consistent effort issues. Not surprised to hear Babcock is reeling him in.

Barrie's offense is wonderful. But I do not miss the lackadaisical floating and constantly being outworked and out muscled in the defensive end.
How dare you saying something like that about our past #1 dman. :sarcasm:
Prepare to be branded a Barrie hater.
 
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