Prospect Info: Cale Makar - D [4th Overall] Part II: #OrrIsTheFloor Edition

[chet1926]

I only used sarcasm because the people I was replying to were laughing at my opinion as if it's not even worth discussing. It's odd that you can recognize that I was being sarcastic, but then treat my sarcastic joke as if it was a complete argument. Obviously I don't believe being 20 is all that matters. Try reading some other things I've written in this post if you have any interest in actually understanding my argument.



I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I have doubts that you actually watched every game.



What do waivers have to do with it? Hmmm... well being waivers-free means that if a player needs to work on their game against less strong opponents, then he can be sent to the AHL to do so. If he's waivers-eligible, it means you can't do that without risking losing him. I thought that would be obvious, but apparently not.

So you mention Graves. If he has indeed been bad (he's at least been great on the PK though), there are limited options. You can waive him, but he might get claimed, so that's probably not worth it. You can let him play through it. Or you can sit him. If you sit him, he doesn't get a chance to play, which is generally what young players need to get better. So the solution for Graves is to let him keep playing in a small role. The solution for Makar is to send him down if he doesn't improve soon. See the difference?

As for his being inconsistent, I think he's had poor defensive plays in every game, and at times has looked very much like a player who doesn't belong in the NHL. Yes, 20 year olds will look like that, but if they're not named Makar and they haven't been putting up 2nd assists, no one would bat an eye to such a player being sent down.



Are you serious? If, let's say Cole makes a routine, easy pass to Girard, then Girard skates into the offensive zone, makes an amazing move, then passes it to MacKinnon who makes another amazing move followed by a wicked shot to score. In that scenario, Cole, gets an assist, yet didn't do anything to earn that point that every single other NHL player could have done.



Responding to the bolded: Okay, you know nothing about developing players. I get it now. Should Rantanen have been in the NHL from the start? Should Kaut be on the team right now? How about Byram? Or is Makar a special case where he's so amazing that he has nothing to gain from playing in the AHL? Or, do you just think the AHL is a complete garbage league full of goons where nobody develops?

Wow, that's all I've got. I'm not a dumbass I get how waivers work. It's more a situation of just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And you sure as hell don't send a more talented player to the minors because you can do it with no consequences, to insert lesser players into the lineup. Rosen and Barberio don't bring anything to the lineup today that Makar doesn't already bring. Thus why they are a #7 dman and the other is in the minors. They just simply aren't good enough options to play over Makar.

As for development every player is different. Rantanen never played a North America game, needed some time to adjust, same for Kaut plus he is simply not talented enough to just make the roster, Byram is 18, wasn't ready at all to go from juniors to pro, plus we didn't have a ton of options with him. Cale Makar on the other hand is almost 21, already spent what I consider 2 years in the minors playing NCAA hockey, has pretty much the most talent in the team, he needs to learn at this level. It is where he will learn the most.

Your expectations for the guy are seemingly way too high. For a rookie he is playing just fine. Now if he is a complete mess in say January, then maybe it's another discussion. But as of right now he isn't a determent to the team. He isn't costing us games left and right. And he leads all of our dmen in scoring, despite you not wanting to give him any credit, at all for that.

 

[MarkT]

Wow, that's all I've got. I'm not a dumbass I get how waivers work. It's more a situation of just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And you sure as hell don't send a more talented player to the minors because you can do it with no consequences, to insert lesser players into the lineup. Rosen and Barberio don't bring anything to the lineup today that Makar doesn't already bring. Thus why they are a #7 dman and the other is in the minors. They just simply aren't good enough options to play over Makar.

As for development every player is different. Rantanen never played a North America game, needed some time to adjust, same for Kaut plus he is simply not talented enough to just make the roster, Byram is 18, wasn't ready at all to go from juniors to pro, plus we didn't have a ton of options with him. Cale Makar on the other hand is almost 21, already spent what I consider 2 years in the minors playing NCAA hockey, has pretty much the most talent in the team, he needs to learn at this level. It is where he will learn the most.

Your expectations for the guy are seemingly way too high. For a rookie he is playing just fine. Now if he is a complete mess in say January, then maybe it's another discussion. But as of right now he isn't a determent to the team. He isn't costing us games left and right. And he leads all of our dmen in scoring, despite you not wanting to give him any credit, at all for that.

• "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". No, of course not. I clearly explained though why waivers are a relevant option for Makar. You claimed they were irrlevant.
• Makar is more talented than Rosen and Barbs. Sure. Josh Ho-Sang is more talented than plenty of guys on our team - should we pick him up and put him on the roster? It's not about talent, it's about performance.
• Rosen looked great in the preseason and a lot of people here felt he earned a roster spot. Since we've never seen him play in the NHL for us, we don't actually know how good he is. Barbs is a known commodity, but played very well in one game already this season.
• "As for development every player is different" Okay sure. What about Bowers? Should he be in the NHL? He's also developed in the NCAA. What I don't get is why Makar deserves some special immunity from the AHL.
  
• Why are you so certain he has nothing to learn at the AHL level?
• My expectations is that he performs at an NHL level. If he doesn't, he shouldn't be on the team. I have that same expectation for every player on the team. I think it's actually your expectation that's the issue here. Because of where he was drafted, and the hype, and his playoff performance, you think he automatically deserves an NHL roster spot regardless of how he performs. You basically want to give him special status, and yet accuse me of having my expectations too high.
• I give him credit for what he deserves. He's made some good offensive plays, but not enough to compensate for his defensive weaknesses. All the other defensemen on the team have done things to compensate for their defensive miscues. As for 2nd assists, I don't give much credence to them for anyone, not just Makar. The majority of 2nd assists are not due to any special play by the guy who gets it. It's not far off from +/- in terms of usefullness as a stat.
• "For a rookie he is playing just fine". I don't want rookies playing "just fine" on the team. This is now a deep team that can be expected to win most games. There's should be no one on the team who is only playing "just fine", but some guys have earned the right to play through "just fine" due to a history of excellent play. No rookie has earned that, especially this early in their career.

 

[Ararana]

Unfortunately, I suspect that if the avs aren't willing to pay for potential on a longterm deal with Cale, we'll see him signing a bridge deal.

I think they'll absolutely be willing to pay for potential. They did it with MacKinnon and Girard I think they'd have Makar right up there as well 'get this guy locked down as long as possible as soon as possible'. And if they did he could end up being our next big sweetheart contract.

Unfortunately I think it's Makar's agent who will insist on the bridge deal or waiting until his ELC is expired before making the decision.

 

[chet1926]

• "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". No, of course not. I clearly explained though why waivers are a relevant option for Makar. You claimed they were irrlevant.
• Makar is more talented than Rosen and Barbs. Sure. Josh Ho-Sang is more talented than plenty of guys on our team - should we pick him up and put him on the roster? It's not about talent, it's about performance.
• Rosen looked great in the preseason and a lot of people here felt he earned a roster spot. Since we've never seen him play in the NHL for us, we don't actually know how good he is. Barbs is a known commodity, but played very well in one game already this season.
• "As for development every player is different" Okay sure. What about Bowers? Should he be in the NHL? He's also developed in the NCAA. What I don't get is why Makar deserves some special immunity from the AHL.
  
• Why are you so certain he has nothing to learn at the AHL level?
• My expectations is that he performs at an NHL level. If he doesn't, he shouldn't be on the team. I have that same expectation for every player on the team. I think it's actually your expectation that's the issue here. Because of where he was drafted, and the hype, and his playoff performance, you think he automatically deserves an NHL roster spot regardless of how he performs. You basically want to give him special status, and yet accuse me of having my expectations too high.
• I give him credit for what he deserves. He's made some good offensive plays, but not enough to compensate for his defensive weaknesses. All the other defensemen on the team have done things to compensate for their defensive miscues. As for 2nd assists, I don't give much credence to them for anyone, not just Makar. The majority of 2nd assists are not due to any special play by the guy who gets it. It's not far off from +/- in terms of usefullness as a stat.
• "For a rookie he is playing just fine". I don't want rookies playing "just fine" on the team. This is now a deep team that can be expected to win most games. There's should be no one on the team who is only playing "just fine", but some guys have earned the right to play through "just fine" due to a history of excellent play. No rookie has earned that, especially this early in their career.

Wow you clearly just have something against Makar. The way you are making it sound is that we are an 0-8 team, and Makar is the sole reason we are losing every single game.

Barberio sucks he played fine in one game, sure, but his other games this year sucked. He is a mediocre #7 dman, that can fill in in a pinch and do ok. That is it. You want bad hockey watch him over an extended period.

Yep Rosen played well in preseason, good for him, what has he done in the AHL so far to deserve the call up over someone who earned a spot in camp? His 2 pts and -5 is sure making this a tough call.

I love how most scouts/voters would have Makar in their top 5, probably even top 3 for the Calder voting right now, but you're over here screaming for him to go the minors. I hate to break it to you but the guy that is tied for 2nd in rookie scoring in the entire league isn't getting sent to the minors.

 

[Newusername]

Lol @ anyone who thinks Makar should be sent down, that is a hot take

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Makar is playing well enough to be in the NHL, end of discussion.

 

[MarkT]

Wow you clearly just have something against Makar. The way you are making it sound is that we are an 0-8 team, and Makar is the some reason we are losing every single game.

Barberio sucks he played fine in one game, sure, but his other games this year sucked. He is a mediocre #7 dman, that can fill in in a pinch and do ok. That is it. You want bad hockey watch him over an extended period.

Yep Rosen played well in preseason, good for him, what has he done in the AHL so far to deserve the call up over someone who earned a spot in camp? His 2 pts and -5 is sure making this a tough call.

I love how most scouts/voters would have Makar in their top 5, probably even top 3 for the Calder voting right now, but you're over here screaming for him to go the minors. I hate to break it to you but the guy that is tied for 2nd in rookie scoring in the entire league isn't getting sent to the minors.

If I'm critical of a player, I automatically have something against him? By that logic you have something against Barbs, Graves, Rosen, Rantanen, and every defenseman on the team other than Makar.

Barberio has played a total of 3 games this year, and I don't want to see him over an extended period. You keep assuming I want Makar sent down for the entire season. You haven't been reading what I'm writing.

I'll admit I haven't looked into Rosen's AHL stats. I have no idea how well he's played down there. I don't really care who would replace Makar though - go with whoever will perform the best.

Most calder voters are idiots if they'd put Makar in their top five right now. It shows they're basing their votes only on points and hype. If you actually watch Makar play it's clear he's struggling.

I'm also not screaming for anything. I've voicing an opinion (that he should be sent down if he continues to play like he has been).

And yes, you're probably right. He probably won't be sent down - good thing that is completely irrelevant to the argument of whether he should be send down.

And for the record, I love Makar. Last season in the playoffs he was one of my favorite players in the whole league to watch. I like him as a person too as he seems like a wonderful kid with a great attitude. I want him to be sent down (if he continues to play like he has been) because I think that would be best for his development, not as a punishment or out of spite.

 

[cgf]

I think they'll absolutely be willing to pay for potential. They did it with MacKinnon and Girard I think they'd have Makar right up there as well 'get this guy locked down as long as possible as soon as possible'. And if they did he could end up being our next big sweetheart contract.

Unfortunately I think it's Makar's agent who will insist on the bridge deal or waiting until his ELC is expired before making the decision.

What I meant by "paying for potential" was offering Cale the 9M+ that he would be worth after a bridge deal, after his ELC; regardless if his production merits it yet or not. So that there's no incentive for his side to push for a bridge deal to get that offer.

 

[chet1926]

If I'm critical of a player, I automatically have something against him? By that logic you have something against Barbs, Graves, Rosen, Rantanen, and every defenseman on the team other than Makar.

Barberio has played a total of 3 games this year, and I don't want to see him over an extended period. You keep assuming I want Makar sent down for the entire season. You haven't been reading what I'm writing.

I'll admit I haven't looked into Rosen's AHL stats. I have no idea how well he's played down there. I don't really care who would replace Makar though - go with whoever will perform the best.

Most calder voters are idiots if they'd put Makar in their top five right now. It shows they're basing their votes only on points and hype. If you actually watch Makar play it's clear he's struggling.

I'm also not screaming for anything. I've voicing an opinion (that he should be sent down if he continues to play like he has been).

And yes, you're probably right. He probably won't be sent down - good thing that is completely irrelevant to the argument of whether he should be send down.

And for the record, I love Makar. Last season in the playoffs he was one of my favorite players in the whole league to watch. I like him as a person too as he seems like a wonderful kid with a great attitude. I want him to be sent down (if he continues to play like he has been) because I think that would be best for his development, not as a punishment or out of spite.

If you truly like Makar, then why the hell are you crtiquing him like he should be better than Bobby Orr 8 games into his rookie season? 5 of the 8 games he has played he was easily one of the top 3-4 dmen on the team including 2 games where I could make the argument he was the best dman for us that particular game. The last two he has had some struggles, he needs to rebound from that. Ups and downs are part of the game for rookies.

 

[henchman21]

Anybody that thinks Makar isn't having a rough time right now is out to lunch. He's not playing well and is struggling transitioning to the NHL. I don't think there is any reason to send him down, it won't do him any good. He needs to take his lumps and learn the NHL game. There is no doubt he is very talented and he has his flashes, but he's having to learn how to apply those talents against a much higher talent level than he has ever played. It is going to take a bit for him to settle out of it. This is just like when people expected him to be a PPG defensemen his first year in college. Temper the expectations and let him adjust. If by the end of the season he's a consistent top 4 guy who is providing consistently impactful offense, it will be a successful season for him.

The huge positive to take in here is being able to produce when he's not playing well. Getting to that 50+ point defensemen level is incredibly tough to do. I think people overestimate how easy it is based off what Barrie did here. It isn't easy and it is very unlikely Makar gets there even producing at a good level to start. But to be that level of defensemen, you have to produce when your game is off. Makar showing that he can do that should be a positive sign. I do think they really need to kick Makar off the top PP unit though. For one, he's currently the worst PP player on the unit and he is hold back their effectiveness. He is relying too much on the other players and not becoming a threat himself. He's not shooting enough and his passes are currently poorly timed. He needs to gather more confidence in what he can do to open up time and space, not only for him, but for the other players. Forcing him on the 2nd unit and basically saying, you're the guy, should help him take more command of the PP and become a real QB of the unit. Not just a guy to move the puck between sides.

 

[Newusername]

Hey cale we know you have 7 points in 8 games, a 72 point pace (Not a big deal), & the team hasn’t lost in regulation yet, first in the league....buuuuuut you have made a couple defensive mistakes, gotta send you to the ahl for it because here at the NHL level we don’t have time for video, defensive lessons or any role models that could help you, have fun in the A, scrub.

 

[MarkT]

If you truly like Makar, then why the hell are you crtiquing him like he should be better than Bobby Orr 8 games into his rookie season? 5 of the 8 games he has played he was easily one of the top 3-4 dmen on the team including 2 games where I could make the argument he was the best dman for us that particular game. The last two he has had some struggles, he needs to rebound from that. Ups and downs are part of the game for rookies.

Look at your first sentence there and ask yourself something. Which is more likely? I'm lying about liking Makar; or I don't expect him to be better than Bobby Orr?

I don't think there's any point in continuing. You have consistently misrepresented my viewpoint and have a completely different way of evaluating the play of defensemen than I do. I don't see how we can ever get to the point of even agreeing to disagree if these things continue to be true.

Enjoy watching the games, friend.

 

[MonsterMack]

Hench, they already took Makar off the top unit last game. Who knows if they stick to that though

 

[The Abusement Park]

Anybody that thinks Makar isn't having a rough time right now is out to lunch. He's not playing well and is struggling transitioning to the NHL. I don't think there is any reason to send him down, it won't do him any good. He needs to take his lumps and learn the NHL game. There is no doubt he is very talented and he has his flashes, but he's having to learn how to apply those talents against a much higher talent level than he has ever played. It is going to take a bit for him to settle out of it. This is just like when people expected him to be a PPG defensemen his first year in college. Temper the expectations and let him adjust. If by the end of the season he's a consistent top 4 guy who is providing consistently impactful offense, it will be a successful season for him.

I think the big positive to take with Makar is that he seems to be good at adjusting and learning. He did ok his first year of college, but learned and adapted and became one of the best players in the NCAA last year. I think he's very willing to learn and grow as a player; so even if he does struggle this year I think he will grow into a good player for us.

Plus they did take him off the top PP last game. Hopefully he can learn how to really insert himself on the PP and not just be another player there.

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

 

[MarkT]

Hey cale we know you have 7 points in 8 games, a 72 point pace (Not a big deal), & the team hasn’t lost in regulation yet, first in the league....buuuuuut you have made a couple defensive mistakes, gotta send you to the ahl for it because here at the NHL level we don’t have time for video, defensive lessons or any role models that could help you, have fun in the A, scrub.

Hi Cale. It's now been 10 games into the season. As you know, we really like your ability to produce points, but we've noticed a lack of confidence in your overall play. We already talked about that when we took you off the first powerplay unit. We've also talked a lot about the miscues you've had in the defensive zone. So, we think the best thing for you right now is to go play for the Eagles for a bit. There you can be a top player in all situations and start to build that confidence back into your game. The coaches there will continue to walk you through video sessions and work on your defensive awareness. We'll get you back up here as soon as you're ready. We did the same thing with Josty last season and it worked out well for him. Go dominate the A for a while and come back here ready to do the same to the NHL, kid.

Anybody that thinks Makar isn't having a rough time right now is out to lunch. He's not playing well and is struggling transitioning to the NHL. I don't think there is any reason to send him down, it won't do him any good.

Isn't one of the purposes of the AHL to help develop young players who struggle to transition to the NHL? Am I missing something about the AHL? Is it actually a garbage league where Makar wouldn't develop? I'm genuinely starting to doubt my knowledge here, because so many people are acting like that's the case.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

The AHL is a great league for players who are too good for juniors but not good enough for the NHL (unplayable) due to a severe issue (i.e. can't skate at NHL level). That is not the case with Cale, who IS good enough for the NHL at all aspects, but haven't played any "perfect" games yet. I would rather he gets a sheltered role in the NHL versus the AHL (I would prefer Timmins up here as well), where he can still adjust and develop chemistry with his D partner.

 

[Newusername]

Hi Cale. It's now been 10 games into the season. As you know, we really like your ability to produce points, but we've noticed a lack of confidence in your overall play. We already talked about that when we took you off the first powerplay unit. We've also talked a lot about the miscues you've had in the defensive zone. So, we think the best thing for you right now is to go play for the Eagles for a bit. There you can be a top player in all situations and start to build that confidence back into your game. The coaches there will continue to walk you through video sessions and work on your defensive awareness. We'll get you back up here as soon as you're ready. We did the same thing with Josty last season and it worked out well for him. Go dominate the A for a while and come back here ready to do the same to the NHL, kid.

sending him to the AHL would be great for his confidence, instead of focusing on his defensive play, he’ll be worried about goons, instead of getting effective coaching, he’ll be riding the buses (These are hyperbole fyi). my point is that You don’t need to send Cale down to do everything you want to do, i feel like benching him for a game would go over 100x better (with his confidence & everything else) then sending him down would, that would break his heart. He’s a rookie defensman........obviously he is gonna make mistakes, jumping down his throat after every mistake is the easiest way to ruin his confidence especially if he thinks he’s gonna be sent down for his mistakes. Let him learn the NHL game, from NHL players In NHL games, Let bednar coach as necessary.

 

[flyfysher]

Hench, they already took Makar off the top unit last game. Who knows if they stick to that though

I trust that Makar will be back on PP1 soon enough. It was going to take our D at least a couple of months to fully settle down. One of the things that I like about Makar is that is able to put the past game behind him. I fully expect some rookie mistakes and unforced errors at times. But I have also seen breakdowns on Makar's play and man, is he ever skilled. Keep him up in the NHL. In fact, bring Timmins up.

 

[henchman21]

Plus they did take him off the top PP last game. Hopefully he can learn how to really insert himself on the PP and not just be another player there.

I hope that continues and wasn't just a mid game frustration move from Bednar.

Isn't one of the purposes of the AHL to help develop young players who struggle to transition to the NHL? Am I missing something about the AHL? Is it actually a garbage league where Makar wouldn't develop? I'm genuinely starting to doubt my knowledge here, because so many people are acting like that's the case.

The AHL is a developmental league and the point is to improve them, but what Makar is struggling with won't be helped by playing in the AHL. He's having trouble adapting to the speed of the NHL, the spacing, and the talent level. The AHL is a pretty fast league itself, so he could probably get used to it 90% in the AHL, but the spacing and talent adjustment, he's not going to learn a thing in the AHL there. If Makar was getting 10 minutes a night with no PP duty here because of depth, then you'd send him to the AHL so he gets some ice time and can learn those duties as a professional on the fly. But he's not, he's being gifted good minutes and responsibilities. It is going to be up and down, but he needs to take his lumps in the NHL. Now a player like Timmins who hasn't played hockey in a year and isn't likely to have any PP role but has that upside, needs to be in a league where he can work on that. He can get mostly used to the speed and should draw in on the PP and PK in the AHL. Hopefully he is pushing his way back on the roster to finish the season.

The AHL as a developmental league is also a bit overrated when it comes to impact players. It is for your depth in your bottom 6 and pairing for skaters. A transition year or maybe two is all that should ever been needed. If a player needs longer than that, they either started a bit young, in a deep organization, or they are not going an impact player. IMO if a forward started in the AHL at 20, and they are not out of the AHL in a year/year and a half, the odds of them being top 6 becomes pretty low. It certainly happens, but forwards shouldn't spend a ton of time in the AHL. Defensemen should get a bit longer leash as there are only so many spots available sometimes... but even then they shouldn't be starting a 3rd season in the AHL.

 

[henchman21]

Hench, they already took Makar off the top unit last game. Who knows if they stick to that though

That's overall my point. One game doesn't mean it is set in stone. Many times we saw Barrie pulled off only to reappear the next game.

 

[MonsterMack]

That's overall my point. One game doesn't mean it is set in stone. Many times we saw Barrie pulled off only to reappear the next game.

Boom

 

[LieutenantDangle]

I for one am glad that EJ hasn't looked like a senior citizen this season, which is allowing Makar to find his way while being able to make rookie mistakes and hopefully learn from them and grow. Anyone who thought Makar was going to be the auto 1d this year and have the keys to the castle is out to lunch. Yes we traded our 1D, but that doesn't mean Makar's job was to step straight into that role.

 

[JH21]

Are people really suggesting Makar gets sent down?

Wtf is going on here?

 

[Balthazar]

Are people really suggesting Makar gets sent down?

Wtf is going on here?

I think it's one one guy.