Burmi, Ehlers, Petan and Copp Vs Frolik, Stemp, Tlusty and Slater whose better?

[KingBogo]

I still haven't voted on this poll because I don't like the question. Several have pointed out that the 'all or none' question is unrealistic.

I suggest something slightly different. Ehlers was going to be on the team regardless so remove him from the list. You have to then make a roster spot for him so remove Tlusty.
How do people see it if the choice was;
Burmi, Petan, Copp
vs
Frolik, Stempniak, Slater?
We could say the same about Copp. He was given 4C last spring when he signed. Lets make the question realistic then. Choose between;
Burmi, Petan
vs
Frolik, Stempniak.
Different result perhaps?

I posed the question because I was curious if people thought the collection of players we now have is better or worse than the collection of players we had at the end of last season. I fail to see how it is an unrealistic question as I see it as the only realistic question possible. The roster we ended last season is a matter of historical record. The exact names are known. As of the OP the roster was made up of 23 players, 4 players from last year's roster are gone. It is an all or nothing as it can be nothing else. It is all of last seasons team Vs all of this seasons team. For practical reasons only those players that were different were listed. I was merely asking which group people thought was better.

I think you want to answer the question (as do many) who should we have kept and who should we have signed? This is a very different question with many unknowns. And if asked should it be only limited to certain players or opened up to all players that were available to be signed?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I posed the question because I was curious if people thought the collection of players we now have is better or worse than the collection of players we had at the end of last season. I fail to see how it is an unrealistic question as I see it as the only realistic question possible. The roster we ended last season is a matter of historical record. The exact names are known. As of the OP the roster was made up of 23 players, 4 players from last year's roster are gone. It is an all or nothing as it can be nothing else. It is all of last seasons team Vs all of this seasons team. For practical reasons only those players that were different were listed. I was merely asking which group people thought was better.

I think you want to answer the question (as do many) who should we have kept and who should we have signed? This is a very different question with many unknowns. And if asked should it be only limited to certain players or opened up to all players that were available to be signed?

Yeah, I understood from the start what you were trying to get at. It is a valid question but I don't have an answer. Slater brings one list down and Ehlers brings the other list up so it is a tie. And, IMO we knew, or Chevy knew by the time we played our last regular season game that Ehlers would be in and Slater would be out. That's why I call your scenarios unrealistic. It would come out exactly the same for me if you had asked if I was for or against the youth movement. If Chevy says no to the 'youth movement' we still get Ehlers and Copp so we are only talking about Petan unless you include Burmi in the youth movement (I don't BTW).

Not trying to rain on your parade. That is just how I see it.

 

[truck]

I posed the question because I was curious if people thought the collection of players we now have is better or worse than the collection of players we had at the end of last season. I fail to see how it is an unrealistic question as I see it as the only realistic question possible. The roster we ended last season is a matter of historical record. The exact names are known. As of the OP the roster was made up of 23 players, 4 players from last year's roster are gone. It is an all or nothing as it can be nothing else. It is all of last seasons team Vs all of this seasons team. For practical reasons only those players that were different were listed. I was merely asking which group people thought was better.

I think you want to answer the question (as do many) who should we have kept and who should we have signed? This is a very different question with many unknowns. And if asked should it be only limited to certain players or opened up to all players that were available to be signed?

It is in the wording.

This...

There has been lots of talk the Jets should have out bid Calgary for Frolik and signed Stempniak and/or Tlusty. Versus going with a youth movement with Ehlers, Petan and Copp and bringing back Burmi.

Did the Jets make the right choice?

This implies that the talk was about all or none and that there were only two options. That is what I read and I wasn't alone.

None of the talk was all or none. The talk was avout adding depth and youth.

 

[KingBogo]

Yeah, I understood from the start what you were trying to get at. It is a valid question but I don't have an answer. Slater brings one list down and Ehlers brings the other list up so it is a tie. And, IMO we knew, or Chevy knew by the time we played our last regular season game that Ehlers would be in and Slater would be out. That's why I call your scenarios unrealistic. It would come out exactly the same for me if you had asked if I was for or against the youth movement. If Chevy says no to the 'youth movement' we still get Ehlers and Copp so we are only talking about Petan unless you include Burmi in the youth movement (I don't BTW).

Not trying to rain on your parade. That is just how I see it.

Again I was just asking for an opinion on what is, not what I wished happened. I can't change any of the variables, but balancing one group against the other is a much tougher question to answer then then picking the best from either side which we could all agree on pretty easily. Obviously we are a better team today with Ehlers, Frolik, Stemp and Copp over Burmi, Slater, Tlusty and Petan. I just can't go back in time and make that happen. Though if I could I'd replace Thorburn with Burmi and I would have signed Boyes over Peluso while I was at it. Oh yeah I'd also bring Helly up sooner than later and sign Buff and Ladd to team friendly contracts .

 

[KingBogo]

It is in the wording.

This...


This implies that the talk was about all or non and that there were only two options. That is what I read and I wasn't alone.

None of the talk was all or none. The talk was avout adding depth and youth.

And on the 1st page I acknowledged I should have asked the question differently and left out the background info.

 

[truck]

And on the 1st page I acknowledged I should have asked the question differently and left out the background info.

I know.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Why not let Petan earn a role rather than shoehorn him into one?

Say Stempniak or a similar player is signed for 1 year $1 million. Even if you end up not having a spot for him and absolutely don't want to pay him to play in the minors, you waive him, maybe he gets claimed, if not you trade him for a 7th rounder or crummy prospect to get him off the books.

It's so low risk. Now we're in a position where Petan is struggling, probably needs some time in the AHL and our options are Cormier and Halischuk.

Why do we not want to be a good team? Good teams have depth that allow guys like Petan to develop at their own pace without sabotaging the team or his development. Good teams have options available to the coach. We have Peluso. You can't healthy scratch a forward, we have no one else who can play.

This sums it up very well. Chevy chose a very, very high risk path when it was totally and completely unnecessary. He kept no proven depth in the back pocket, not even cheap depth like Tlusty or Stempniak, to allow players to develop at normal pace, or to account for injuries. Cap was no way an issue to do that. Interesting his effect on thinning out the AHL team, as well. All over one summer of nothin'. Two birds with one stone.

Anyway. It's still sort of early. But American Thanksgiving is fast approaching and we know the significance of that date.

But maybe tonight is the night that it turns around. I am still hopeful because Maurice has not pulled the trigger on two things, and it appears he will do both of them tonight:
1. More conservative activation of d
2. Shuffle the non-working lines.

Hopefully, even if we lose, this will have some benefit. I do see our 4th line tonight as having a lot more speed. I am really anxious to see how they do. I am counting on them to make an impact so that we don't have to see the likes of Peluso in the lineup for a long, long time.

 

[Say What]

Neither group would guarantee a playoff berth. However, I have more faith in a motivated 'youth' movement getting us through the first round.

Stempniak, Tlusty, Frolik & Slater were not going to scare anyone come mid April. I'd be nervously awaiting another possible sweep.....probably by St.loo or Dallas this time.

Been there, done that!!

 

[Puckatron 3000]

There are some contracts that are one year agreements. You do understand that, right?

Sure, but not the one we're talking about (Frolik). And 1 year contracts are almost never the ones that matter.

Still, I deserved that. I was a little snarky in my post.

Anyway, was going to dispute your claim that we could keep all of Buff, Ladd, and Fro with some numbers. But I don't have the heart after tonight's game.

Why not let Petan earn a role rather than shoehorn him into one?

(... Stempniak ...)

It's so low risk.

Yeah, I buy that. I have trouble fully defending Chevy for not bringing back Stemp.

 

[gibber1600]

Given the benefit of hindsight I would tend to agree with you. If the plan was to give Petan his chance to make the jump he hasn't really been given an opportunity to succeed.

NEVER thought that Petan should be up with the team. I just don't see what the big deal is with him. Morrissey in the same boat. We have enough smallish players that won't hit or shoot the puck (Enstrom).

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Again I was just asking for an opinion on what is, not what I wished happened. I can't change any of the variables, but balancing one group against the other is a much tougher question to answer then then picking the best from either side which we could all agree on pretty easily. Obviously we are a better team today with Ehlers, Frolik, Stemp and Copp over Burmi, Slater, Tlusty and Petan. I just can't go back in time and make that happen. Though if I could I'd replace Thorburn with Burmi and I would have signed Boyes over Peluso while I was at it. Oh yeah I'd also bring Helly up sooner than later and sign Buff and Ladd to team friendly contracts .

Sounds like a good plan to me.

In my version though I at least stuck to the same list of names.

After the last 6 games I think I can safely say we were better at the end of last season than we are now. Does that answer your question?

I don't think it is all just roster decisions but we are playing ****ty hockey right now.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

The question is a false choice of all or nothing. But if that's the question, then we need to look at the regular season records.

Jet's in March and April last season 12 - 6 -1.

Let's see where we stand at 19 games with the youth movement. We will know when they complete this road trip.

So 12-6-1 with the veterans. 8-9-2 with the newbies. While going -12 in team plus minus I might add.

That answers that.

For those saying team record doesn't tell you anything, you need other fancy stats: Go ahead and stat away. It's pretty obvious who is better. At least in the near term.

 

[KingBogo]

So 12-6-1 with the veterans. 8-9-2 with the newbies. While going -12 in team plus minus I might add.

That answers that.

For those saying team record doesn't tell you anything, you need other fancy stats: Go ahead and stat away. It's pretty obvious who is better. At least in the near term.

Actually the March and April record was 12-10-1. If you go to the end of April. Either way long term we have way too many mediocre vets rather than not having enough of them. At least youth and prospects brings hope of better days. I can deal with some sort term pain to one day get a team that can actually compete with the best. And I can't see that ever happening with our current core of players no matter how we mix and match them. The only 2 players over 25 yo I'd worry about keeping would be Little and Wheeler.

 

[Daximus]

Actually the March and April record was 12-10-1. If you go to the end of April. Either way long term we have way too many mediocre vets rather than not having enough of them. At least youth and prospects brings hope of better days. I can deal with some sort term pain to one day get a team that can actually compete with the best. And I can't see that ever happening with our current core of players no matter how we mix and match them. The only 2 players over 25 yo I'd worry about keeping would be Little and Wheeler.

I agree with this. Our current core is not a contender it never was with Fro, Stemp, Tlusty and Slater either.
We we're a bubble team and would have continued to be a bubble team either just missing or just making the playoffs and always picking out of the top 5. This team needs an elite talent. When you look at the teams that are good draft and develop teams they either snagged themselvessome elite talent or they got lucky with drafting like Detroit with Zetterberg and Datsyuk.
We have Ehlers who looks to have a very high ceiling but outside of that most of our guys are just shy of being that elite talent. I continue to think that you can't contend until you have an elite centerman, winger and defencemen with good depth. Dallas looks to be well on their way a core of Seguin, Benn and Klingberg.
Trade Ladd and Buff for assets and look to the draft. Let the retool begin.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Actually the March and April record was 12-10-1. If you go to the end of April. Either way long term we have way too many mediocre vets rather than not having enough of them. At least youth and prospects brings hope of better days. I can deal with some sort term pain to one day get a team that can actually compete with the best. And I can't see that ever happening with our current core of players no matter how we mix and match them. The only 2 players over 25 yo I'd worry about keeping would be Little and Wheeler.

Adding in the four losses in the playoffs to one single team, the best team in the west. Good way to skew the results.

Bringing in youth and prospects that aren't ready, and failing to give them proper development does not bring in hope of better days for me.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Actually the March and April record was 12-10-1. If you go to the end of April. Either way long term we have way too many mediocre vets rather than not having enough of them. At least youth and prospects brings hope of better days. I can deal with some sort term pain to one day get a team that can actually compete with the best. And I can't see that ever happening with our current core of players no matter how we mix and match them. The only 2 players over 25 yo I'd worry about keeping would be Little and Wheeler.

We had that last spring. What happened?

 

[Whileee]

We had that last spring. What happened?

Keeping with the spirit of the thread....

What happened?

We replaced a broken down 4th line C with a better young 4th line C.

We replaced an experienced 4th line winger with a rookie 4th line winger.

We replaced a future Hall-of-Fame Canadian 3rd line winger with a Russian 3rd line winger.

Who knew that success was so fragile?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Keeping with the spirit of the thread....

What happened?

We replaced a broken down 4th line C with a better young 4th line C.

We replaced an experienced 4th line winger with a rookie 4th line winger.

We replaced a future Hall-of-Fame Canadian 3rd line winger with a Russian 3rd line winger.

Who knew that success was so fragile?

Yup. There is plenty of room to discuss and debate some of the decisions that have been made but comparing our current roster to last spring's and blaming our current situation on swapping Slater, Stemp and Tlusty for Ehlers, Petan and Copp doesn't stand up. Frolik for Burmi contributes more IMO but that was a separate decision. It does not explain our sad play either.

 

[Whileee]

Yup. There is plenty of room to discuss and debate some of the decisions that have been made but comparing our current roster to last spring's and blaming our current situation on swapping Slater, Stemp and Tlusty for Ehlers, Petan and Copp doesn't stand up. Frolik for Burmi contributes more IMO but that was a separate decision. It does not explain our sad play either.

None of those changes have been as problematic as:

1) Less consistent defense, and very poor PK.
2) A dip in Ladd's performance in all zones.
3) A dip in Trouba's performance, along with career-worst play from Stuart.
4) A slow start from Perreault.
5) Inconsistent goaltending.

 

[truck]

None of those changes have been as problematic as:

1) Less consistent defense, and very poor PK.
2) A dip in Ladd's performance in all zones.
3) A dip in Trouba's performance, along with career-worst play from Stuart.
4) A slow start from Perreault.
5) Inconsistent goaltending.

2 and 4 haven't shown up on paper - they are 3rd and 4th in team scoring and solid possession wise.
5 should have been expect.

1 do buy 1 and 3 as big issues, potentially unforeseen but they are the same issue.

 

[KingBogo]

We had that last spring. What happened?

I'm guessing fans of real contenders wouldn't consider sneaking into the playoffs and getting swept contending with the best.

 

[Daximus]

2 and 4 haven't shown up on paper - they are 3rd and 4th in team scoring and solid possession wise.
5 should have been expect.

1 do buy 1 and 3 as big issues, potentially unforeseen but they are the same issue.

Ladd may be putting up points but he definitely seems off. He looks lazy and slow out there, making bad plays. I mean the guy has a nose for the net so he can score. He's never been a sniper just drives the net and cleans up the garbage or is in the right place for a pass. But it's his play everywhere else that is concerning.
He looks like a product of Little and Wheeler more than either of them look like a product of him. We saw that both of them can still play their game without him but he looked completely out to lunch on that line with Scheif and Ehlers.
I think if this keeps up and we continue to lose games into Christmas break than it's probably time to just trade both Ladd and Buff for youth and picks and look to the draft and get ourselves an elite talent. We just need to pick in the top 5 really.. Matthews would give us a huge edge right out of Zurich. Kid is already tearing up a men's league at 16/17 no doubt in my mind he is NHL ready by next season and could slot into our 3rd line with ease. Chychrun would solve every single problem we have at LD by himself. It never hurts to have more speedy wingers with hands and Puljujarvi and Laine are both more than capable of filling that role. Then there's that Tkachuk kid whose looking an awful lot like a certain someone at this point.

 

[truck]

I'm guessing fans of real contenders wouldn't consider sneaking into the playoffs and getting swept contending with the best.

They were the top possession team in the league down the stretch last year. This is the single greatest predictor of future success. They had made meaningful progress and they were most definitely a contender.

Losing 4 close games didn't change any of that.

They were a rock solid team with real depth and young payers pushing. They gave that up for mediocrity. No chance Chicago would have done the same. They would have kept the depth and made the youth prove that they should stay - just as they have done and continue to do.

 

[blues10]

They were the top possession team in the league down the stretch last year. This is the single greatest predictor of future success. They had made meaningful progress and they were most definitely a contender.

Losing 4 close games didn't change any of that.

They were a rock solid team with real depth and young payers pushing. They gave that up for mediocrity. No chance Chicago would have done the same. They would have kept the depth and made the youth prove that they should stay - just as they have done and continue to do.

It was such a treat while it lasted.

 

[Whileee]

2 and 4 haven't shown up on paper - they are 3rd and 4th in team scoring and solid possession wise.
5 should have been expect.

1 do buy 1 and 3 as big issues, potentially unforeseen but they are the same issue.

Ladd and Perreault are both behind their scoring pace from last year. Remarkable for Ladd, since he's playing with two of the hottest players in the NHL. Ladd is being carried in scoring and possession, in my opinion. Perreault isn't very effective on the PP this year.