Burkie Canned By TOR

Exit Dose

Registered User
Jul 2, 2011
29,203
3,336
Georgia
The Kessel trade is godawful, yes. But the Gardiner/Lupul and Phaneuf trades were both great as much as I dislike Phaneuf as a no.1 dman. He made his mistakes, sure (the Komisarek signing being another wtf moment) but look at the roster and prospect pool he inherited and compare it to what they've got now. They're definitely in a much better situation.

I do agree though that he's much more of a finisher than a builder. And his history with identifying goaltending talent has been questionable at best (fortunately Anaheim had Giguere & Bryzgalov before he arrived although he did get us Hiller before he left).
The Phaneuf trade was good only in the sense that they came out ahead. Making him a captain has been an absolute disaster.

And Komisarek isn't the only bad FA signing there. Though apparently he could have had four 1sts at least year's deadline for all the spare parts he signed.:laugh:

If you think what he's leaving behind is significantly better than what he inherited, then I'll just drop it. We're never going to agree on that, just like I'm never going to agree that what he left behind in Anaheim was better.

I hate to sound like Dirk, but Burke has always been a bit of a ******** artist, and I think some here are drinking what he's been serving. I think you guys are really underselling what Bryan Murray did, though there were problems there, too.
 

Paul4587

Registered User
Jan 26, 2006
31,163
13,179
I hate to sound like Dirk, but Burke has always been a bit of a ******** artist, and I think some here are drinking what he's been serving. I think you guys are really underselling what Bryan Murray did, though there were problems there, too.

I'm not drinking anything he's serving and I agree he's full of ****. His stubborness and arrogance pisses me off - it did while he was in Anaheim and it has since he left. That being said, I think he's a good GM and he gets a lot more criticism because people flat out don't like the guy. We had the best years of our franchise with him in charge and without him (and Bryan Murray also) there's no way we win a cup. The so called mess he left us in is greatly exaggerated.

He's far from a Ken Holland but he's the best we've ever had in Anaheim.
 

Static

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 28, 2006
47,508
33,726
SoCal
Burke is very good at identifying what he wants his team to be and making it so at all costs. At all costs. Murray isn't as reckless and is better at cap management, but he lacks vision in my opinion.

Burke's relationship with the fan base was very good though, something Bob can't touch. I do miss that quite a bit, as it did make the team feel more relevant. Say what you want about the moves themselves, one always had the feeling (at least to me) that Burke had a plan to get better, and he was going to go through with that plan no matter what.
 

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
Jun 6, 2010
52,174
29,437
Long Beach, CA
I thought he actually did a very good job taking the team from laughingstock to merely borderline. He certainly cleared out the majority of underachievers and bad contracts better than I thought he ever could.
 

RPGrizzly

Registered User
Jan 5, 2006
399
0
This is sad, to me it reeks of an MLSE power trip. When Burke signed on as GM he did so under the circumstance he would have assume full authority over hockey operations because at the time, it was no secret Anselmi, Tanenbaum and the rest of the board were the ones pulling the strings. Ferguson and Fletcher were merely puppets. Burke had 3 full hockey seasons and 4 offseasons as GM, working with an impending lockout his last. He had one month to work with Randy Carlyle in Toronto. He deserved more time, the Leafs are a competitive team and probably a goalie away from being a playoff team.

I like Burke, I like his philosophy on how a team should be run. He did it the right way in Anaheim and integrated the team into the community. He'll get another GM job somewhere if he wants it, he could even work in some position for the league under Betteman. I like him best as a GM though and he deserves better than Toronto. I wish him luck in the future.
 

Sojourn

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
50,523
9,377
I thought he actually did a very good job taking the team from laughingstock to merely borderline. He certainly cleared out the majority of underachievers and bad contracts better than I thought he ever could.

I'd agree. He made some mistakes there too, but considering what that team was when he was hired, I think he did more good than bad. The timing of this seems... off, to me. Desperate even. You hire a guy to rebuild your team, give him scraps to do it with, and then fire him after he gets you a team that can start to compete? No one is going to mistake them for contenders, but they are much better off than they were.

I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with him in Anaheim. I thought he did a lot of good things early on, but I really disliked some of his decisions later, especially after Anaheim won the Cup. Burke seemed willing to do whatever it took to make another run at it, and didn't give much thought to the ramifications. Still, as big an ******* as he was, at least he kept the fans informed. I hate the lack of information from Murray, and he comes across as a smug SOB himself.
 

Exit Dose

Registered User
Jul 2, 2011
29,203
3,336
Georgia
I'm not drinking anything he's serving and I agree he's full of ****. His stubborness and arrogance pisses me off - it did while he was in Anaheim and it has since he left. That being said, I think he's a good GM and he gets a lot more criticism because people flat out don't like the guy. We had the best years of our franchise with him in charge and without him (and Bryan Murray also) there's no way we win a cup. The so called mess he left us in is greatly exaggerated.

He's far from a Ken Holland but he's the best we've ever had in Anaheim.
Half of this board's posts since his departure have been about the mess he left here. We are still looking for a solution to the lack of second line center. That was a problem created by Brian Burke.

Take a look at the draft, sure Burke isn't the one doing the scouting, but he is the guy in charge of creating the framework for the team he wants to build, which is part of what we use to determine who the BPA is. If my math is right, Murray has drafted more Europeans in the last four years than Burke has in his last eight. Now, I know there are a few bigots that chime in from time to time around here that are okay with that, but I'm not of the same mindset that carving away a massive chunk of this league's talent pipeline is a smart idea. The funny thing is that if you swapped the picks we've made since he left, I don't think there's any chance that he would have been fired for standing his ground on Luongo's contract, if the rumors are true at least.

How many true centers has Burke drafted in the last eight years? The biggest problem we inherited from Burke's tenure just happens to be the same problem hounding the Leafs. I don't think that's a coincidence.

How about the players he has landed in trade? Well, notice how many of Burke's solutions revolve around ex-players of his from previous organizations. Burke has vision, but he has shown a tremendous lack of creativity in making that vision into a reality.

You are right, Burke deserves a lot of credit for the team we had in '07. I'm not going to dispute that. Nor should Bob get off the hook for all of his mistakes, but this rose tinted view of Burke's regime would look a bit different if he had stuck around.
 

Sojourn

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
50,523
9,377
In regards to the drafting, I'll admit, that is something I didn't like about Burke. He really seemed to emphasize North American hockey, which I had no problem with, but I felt like he would actively pass up skilled players for pugnacity, and I don't think that's how you get better through the draft. He seemed to have a real dislike of Russian players, and he seemed to be hesitant to take European talents. I can accept the former, given the question marks, but the latter? With the way the NHL is? I don't think you can overlook the kind of talent you can find in Europe.
 

Paul4587

Registered User
Jan 26, 2006
31,163
13,179
Half of this board's posts since his departure have been about the mess he left here. We are still looking for a solution to the lack of second line center. That was a problem created by Brian Burke.

We have Koivu who was decent enough the first two years he was here. But it was a problem Burke created that he had no real chance to address because he left the next year. Who knows if he does a better job than Murray at addressing it. In case people don't remember, McDonald was traded to accommodate Niedermayer coming back because we didn't have tagging room for his contract. I'm not justifying the return but Scott Niedermayer obviously takes priority over most roster players.

Take a look at the draft, sure Burke isn't the one doing the scouting, but he is the guy in charge of creating the framework for the team he wants to build, which is part of what we use to determine who the BPA is. If my math is right, Murray has drafted more Europeans in the last four years than Burke has in his last eight. Now, I know there are a few bigots that chime in from time to time around here that are okay with that, but I'm not of the same mindset that carving away a massive chunk of this league's talent pipeline is a smart idea.

Yeah, I agree with that, Burke has shied away from Europeans (other than using occasional low round picks on Swedish players) which is not the brightest way to go about things. He's completely shied away from Russians but he's not alone there.

The funny thing is that if you swapped the picks we've made since he left, I don't think there's any chance that he would have been fired for standing his ground on Luongo's contract, if the rumors are true at least.

Well we had 4 first rounders in '09 and '10 where as Toronto only had 1, so obviously swapping picks is going to make Toronto's prospect pool significantly better.

How many true centers has Burke drafted in the last eight years? The biggest problem we inherited from Burke's tenure just happens to be the same problem hounding the Leafs. I don't think that's a coincidence.

The biggest problem in Toronto is a 1C, which don't grow on trees, they're hard to acquire. From the 2C spot down, Toronto has been fine. Vancouver never had any issues down the middle (Burke drafted Sedin and Kesler btw) and we only had issues after the McDonald trade.

How about the players he has landed in trade? Well, notice how many of Burke's solutions revolve around ex-players of his from previous organizations. Burke has vision, but he has shown a tremendous lack of creativity in making that vision into a reality.

A good portion are. Plenty aren't though. Phaneuf, Kessel, Versteeg, Liles, Pronger, Moen, Beauchemin and many others weren't on his previous team

You are right, Burke deserves a lot of credit for the team we had in '07. I'm not going to dispute that. Nor should Bob get off the hook for all of his mistakes, but this rose tinted view of Burke's regime would look a bit different if he had stuck around.

My replies are bolded. I couldn't be bothered quoting each point separately.
 

Exit Dose

Registered User
Jul 2, 2011
29,203
3,336
Georgia
Burke doesn't get credit for Koivu. That was Murray's pull. And it was just a passable stopgap, not a solution.

Also, the reason why they lacked for first round picks in that time is that he traded them away for an accessory player(Kessel) for a team that needed a rebuild. Worst of all, he didn't even secure protection on that initial first even though he had the leverage to get it via offer sheet plus Kessel's salary demands pricing out many of the other teams that were trying to get him.

He didn't secure a 1C, and you're right, that is a difficult type of player to find, but that isn't the only way to build a competitive team. What's important is that he also couldn't land at least a second 2C to at least give his top six a fighting chance. Let's also not forget that he was with a team that was solid enough financially to make a play for Richards. I admire him for sticking to his principles with the contract BR was looking for, but that stance still cost his team. Then there's also Richards and Carter. Weren't there reports about the sticking points on Burke's side being that he wouldn't part with Kadri and Kulemin to secure one of those players, or something to that effect, it's been a while and my memory is hazy.
 

Paul4587

Registered User
Jan 26, 2006
31,163
13,179
Burke doesn't get credit for Koivu. That was Murray's pull. And it was just a passable stopgap, not a solution.

Also, the reason why they lacked for first round picks in that time is that he traded them away for an accessory player(Kessel) for a team that needed a rebuild. Worst of all, he didn't even secure protection on that initial first even though he had the leverage to get it via offer sheet plus Kessel's salary demands pricing out many of the other teams that were trying to get him.

He didn't secure a 1C, and you're right, that is a difficult type of player to find, but that isn't the only way to build a competitive team. What's important is that he also couldn't land at least a second 2C to at least give his top six a fighting chance. Let's also not forget that he was with a team that was solid enough financially to make a play for Richards. I admire him for sticking to his principles with the contract BR was looking for, but that stance still cost his team. Then there's also Richards and Carter. Weren't there reports about the sticking points on Burke's side being that he wouldn't part with Kadri and Kulemin to secure one of those players, or something to that effect, it's been a while and my memory is hazy.

I was referring to Koivu as saying we had a temporary solution, not giving Burke credit for it.

Yeah, the Kessel trade was bad. Kessel was a part of the rebuild though, he was just trying to accelerate it. He's still managed to get a 35 goal scorer out of the deal but the fact Boston got Seguin and now Hamilton is overkill. Even if he never makes that trade, we still have twice as many picks as Toronto due to the return we got on an asset Burke acquired (Pronger).

As for the second 2C, when he failed to get Richards he went out and got the only other guy on the market (Connolly) who could fit that role but was very broken. He had to do something and at least he didn't sign him to a ridiculous contract, he only gave him 2 years. He was willing to part with Kadri and Kulemin for Richards but not Carter IIRC but Philadelphia preferred LAs package (and who wouldn't prefer Schenn to Kadri).

We're obviously just going to agree to disagree on our opinions of Burke. My stance is that Burke is a good (not great) GM and the best years this franchise ever had was with him in charge. Murray IMO is an ok GM who has won nothing since he took over Burkes role despite having some very good core pieces to build around when he got here (Perry, Getzlaf, Ryan & Hiller as well as two HHOF defensemen who admittedly were both ageing but both had significant value still - which he realized in Prongers case). Murray has a much better draft record in his tenure here so far but he's struggled to build around our key pieces and on the rare occasion he does try to fix a team need he tends to leave us bigger holes in other areas (think about how he decimated our blueline in order to add offensive depth after the '09 playoffs). By the time all the prospects he's drafted are ready Getzlaf and Perry may be long gone and at best we'll still have them taking up a lot more of our internal budget.
 

Exit Dose

Registered User
Jul 2, 2011
29,203
3,336
Georgia
My issue with the Kessel trade isn't his talent level. Burke got that, but that he's not exactly a player that you'd single out as a building block.

Also, Burke would have had as many first round picks as Murray did in that time. He picked up two extra first in trade for the 2011 draft.

Edit: There was also Gardiner and Colbourne.
 
Last edited:

Paul4587

Registered User
Jan 26, 2006
31,163
13,179
Agree on Kessel. Great goal scorer but not a franchise guy. Ideally he's the 2nd or 3rd most important forward on a team.
 

Dirk316

Registered User
Nov 8, 2004
8,308
1,980
St Petersburg, Fl
Pronger
Beauchemin
O'donnell
Moen
May
EDIT: Forgot Todd Marchant!

Burke doesn't get enough credit for what he did in Anaheim. Not only in acquring those players, but also in dumping the likes of Fedorov, Rucchin, Ozolinsh, and Sykora.

GM had balls, and the team had an identity.
Great post
Its pathetic how much hate a gm that got us a freakin cup and assembled the most entertaining team this franchise will ever see gets. You can't make up crap like this
 

HanSolo

DJ Crazy Times
Apr 7, 2008
97,555
32,392
Las Vegas
Great post
Its pathetic how much hate a gm that got us a freakin cup and assembled the most entertaining team this franchise will ever see gets. You can't make up crap like this

It's easy to not want him back. Take a look at the roster we had when he left. And we can't give him too much credit for the Pronger deal. Pronger wanted out and Edmonton took the best deal offered.

Not just that but he built that team under a different salary cap and CBA.
 

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
Jun 6, 2010
52,174
29,437
Long Beach, CA
My issue with Burke is how he left. I don't want anyone who isn't committed to the team to be associated with the team. So thanks, but have a good career as the next commissioner.
 

snarktacular

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
20,525
182
Burke deserves all the flak you give for stuff like Komisarek, but you know at least it's better than his predecessor who gave 14 million to the wrong Colorado defenseman.
 

Paul4587

Registered User
Jan 26, 2006
31,163
13,179
It's easy to not want him back. Take a look at the roster we had when he left. And we can't give him too much credit for the Pronger deal. Pronger wanted out and Edmonton took the best deal offered.

Getzlaf
Perry
Selanne
Kunitz
Morrison
Marchant
Pahlsson
Niedermayer
Moen
Miller
Carter
Parros
May

Pronger
Niedermayer
Beauchemin
Montador
Hedican
Huskins
McIver

Giguere (before he went into a massive slump after his father passed)
Hiller

With Ryan in the AHL

That's a solid roster with the lack of a 2C being the only weakness. We were 4th in the conference when Burke left.

As for the Pronger deal, Lowe orginally wanted Getzlaf or Perry to be a part of the deal and Burke wanted to give up Lupul instead (who was far more established at than the twins at the time). You can't not give him credit for bringing Pronger in.
 
Last edited:

HanSolo

DJ Crazy Times
Apr 7, 2008
97,555
32,392
Las Vegas
Getzlaf
Perry
Selanne
Kunitz
Morrison
Marchant
Pahlsson
Niedermayer
Moen
Miller
Carter
Parros
May


Pronger
Niedermayer
Beauchemin
Montador
Hedican
Huskins
McIver

Giguere (before he went into a massive slump after his father passed)
Hiller

With Ryan in the AHL

That's a solid roster with the lack of a 2C being the only weakness. We were 4th in the conference when Burke left.

As for the Pronger deal, Lowe orginally wanted Getzlaf or Perry to be a part of the deal and Burke wanted to give up Lupul instead (who was far more established at than the twins at the time). You can't not give him credit for bringing Pronger in.

And I'm supposed to be proud of those guys?

I'll give you the Pronger trade.
 

Sean Garrity

Quack Quack Quack!
Dec 25, 2007
17,455
6,085
Dee Eff UU
And I'm supposed to be proud of those guys?

I'll give you the Pronger trade.

Congratulations, you nitpicked 7 players out of 22. Of those 7 players, only one was in the top 6 or top 4 defensively. Bottom 6 and bottom 2 defenseman come and go, the talent that you didn't nitpick was still top 5 in the league.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad