Building A Contender (fingers crossed) - Draft & Develop VS. Trade & Sign

[theIceWookie]

I would honestly be bored with a team that only drafted and developed players and never made a trade or signed a free agent.

It's a good thing that the really strong teams don't limit themselves to just one avenue of finding a player. They use all of them.

The idea that building a team through just the draft being the right way is among the biggest and most idiotic things hfboards talks about.

 

[Randy Randerson]

drafting is the core for two reasons

1) salary cap. it's harder to afford the free agents but the ones you sign generally won't be the core these days. chi and la and pitts, still drafted their core.

2) most trades initially started with draft picks. you can't get anything valuable unless you have anything valuable. you have to start somewhere. if i remember, it was gilmour for leeman?

Ya the era of the "Hockey Trade" seemed to be pretty much over until this last 6-8 Months with Jones for Johansen, Hall for Larsson, PK for Weber, etc. If you want a big piece back in the cap era it usually starts with a 1st round pick + a blue chip prospect, usually being consummated between a team looking to go for it and a team looking to rebuild. In the pre-cap days it seemed like teams were much more willing to deal to find better chemistry, even if both teams were in the same mode of the rebuild-contend-rebuild cycle....and maybe it was less cyclical back then as well with the ability to add through free agency if you could afford it

 

[TLeafsFan]

Except penguins won the cup with a trade piece being their 3rd best forward

Sorry, just a fan of calling a spade a spade. I'd say Kessel is the 5th best actual player on the Pens now all things considered.

 

[Mess]

Just to kill some time in August as we approach what I think is the most intriguing Leafs season in a long time (excited to watch the kids, not delusional about how we'll fare this year):

Do leaf fans think it will be more satisfying to Draft & Develop the core group of players for what we hope will be a decade-long contender versus how the '92-'94 Leafs were assembled through lots of signings and trades? In each of those years, 40-50% of the team's top 10 scorers were leaf's draft picks

Assuming this rebuild works, to me it seems like watching the whole process unfold will be much more satisfying than the way it was done in the early 90's where "Hockey Trades" happened more frequently. Might be a byproduct of playing too much GM mode....

what do you guys think?

(PS - I acknowledge that some good pieces came through the draft for the early 90's leafs, but it looks like this team will be more reliant on drafted pieces than the Gilmour/Clark version.)

Building success internally through drafting and developing your own talent is always more rewarding then buying success through trades and signings.

"Play the Kids" has always been more desirable for me as a fan then trade the kids and play the Vets would ever be.

 

[Finnish your Czech]

i dont care

 

[Randy Randerson]

Building success internally through drafting and developing your own talent is always more rewarding then buying success through trades and signings.

"Play the Kids" has always been more desirable for me as a fan then trade the kids and play the Vets would ever be.

That's the way I think too, seems like we're the minority though

 

[theIceWookie]

Building success internally through drafting and developing your own talent is always more rewarding then buying success through trades and signings.

"Play the Kids" has always been more desirable for me as a fan then trade the kids and play the Vets would ever be.

You know what's most rewarding? Winning. And I could care less about how that happens, as long as it happens.

 

[Fogelhund]

Sorry, just a fan of calling a spade a spade. I'd say Kessel is the 5th best actual player on the Pens now all things considered.

Overall, I can't disagree with this, though there were times in the playoffs he was their best player.

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Draft, develop, sign and trade for prospects, whom you develop.

Kapanen, Lindberg and Connor Carrick are all guys whom we've traded for. Prospects who have varying chances of playing for us long-term.

Zaitsev, Soshnikov and maybe Vesey are examples of signing undrafted Free agents.

So, five "prospects" whom we've traded for, or signed... plus maybe another.

Then we traded for Andersen... Signed Martin and Polak

Plus our drafted prospects....

But, with the cap, you need a lot of talented kids, on their Entry Level Contracts. So, we've back filled entry level guys, by drafting, trading AND signing.

One day, we will have some holes to fill, and that will be trade or sign.

For now, build the team around prospects, however we acquire them. Make sure you trade off excess prospects, for more picks, so that we can continually back fill our team with ELC players.

There is no, one OR the other... we need all strategies, and are already utilizing them.

 

[theIceWookie]

That's the way I think too, seems like we're the minority though

Does it ultimately matter how the team wins? If winning is the goal, the means to get there really shouldn't matter, except to lead to that winning.

And frankly building a team should be done in whatever way it takes to win. Drafting, trading, signing. The reality is that you can't build a winner without doing all three. Doing one or the other is just a great way to ensure you can't build much of a winner.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Does it ultimately matter how the team wins? If winning is the goal, the means to get there really shouldn't matter, except to lead to that winning.

And frankly building a team should be done in whatever way it takes to win. Drafting, trading, signing. The reality is that you can't build a winner without doing all three. Doing one or the other is just a great way to ensure you can't build much of a winner.

To me, I get a warmer & fuzzier feeling from building from within as the primary means - which it looks like this version will do, versus the early 90's where much of that core was acquired already in their prime. Won't scoff at a winner however it happens, just wondered if anyone else felt the same way

 

[Morbo]

There is no VS. You need to do both successfully.

 

[kk87]

I just don't see how drafting them yourself gives you any more joy?

Makes no sense to me.

I can see what the OP's saying. Obviously winning is the only thing that ultimately matters, but wouldn't it feel slightly more gratifying if the leaders on that team were players who have been here their whole career, after being drafted and developed into our organization, than with a bunch of players that just came that year?

 

[Randy Randerson]

There is no VS. You need to do both successfully.

I think this version of the leafs will have a much higher ratio of drafted players (or signed as overage prospects) versus previous versions and compared to the last one that was contending, wasn't trying to say that it would be exclusively drafted&developed

 

[theIceWookie]

To me, I get a warmer & fuzzier feeling from building from within as the primary means - which it looks like this version will do, versus the early 90's where much of that core was acquired already in their prime. Won't scoff at a winner however it happens, just wondered if anyone else felt the same way

Cool I guess. You do you.

I guess I'm just a little more pragmatic in a league where it's incredibly difficult to win a cup. I think you win with whatever strategy it takes. Sticking to some specific set pattern because it gives you a great feeling just makes it more difficult.

And to be honest, I still maintain that you need both sides to be able to build a proper winner. The idea that it is one or the other is just...misplaced.

 

[Menzinger]

In reality you need a combination of all of the above to be competitive.

That said, the nature of the new NHL places the clear importance on draft and development. Teams are at their most competitive when their home grown core talent is signed on cheaper RFA deals.

The nature of the salary cap prevents teams from bringing in the type of talent teams used to be able to via trade.

Overall I justo me draft and develop other more satisfying since you get to follow the guys from being picks at the draft, through prospect development into full time NHLers.

 

[hotpaws]

drafting and developing your core or at least the majority of it gives you a longer window to contend , sure the odd elite young player/prospect gets moved but for the most part it's much easier going through the draft to build your core

 

[Randy Randerson]

Cool I guess. You do you.

I guess I'm just a little more pragmatic in a league where it's incredibly difficult to win a cup. I think you win with whatever strategy it takes. Sticking to some specific set pattern because it gives you a great feeling just makes it more difficult.

And to be honest, I still maintain that you need both sides to be able to build a proper winner. The idea that it is one or the other is just...misplaced.

yep - the whole thread was about if HF leaf fans would feel more satisfied about winning with a home grown crop versus how the early 90's teams were built based on the assumption that this version will contend and that the core will include Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Rielly/Kadri+late round surprises etc. Wasn't a debate about the strategy of how to get there, so not sure why you're trying to make it an argument

 

[highslot]

Except penguins won the cup with a trade piece being their 3rd best player

who wasn't part of the core. kessel being the most skilled player on a team doesn't win a cup let alone playoff round (aka leafs). i'd argue 5th best piece anyways.

 

[Menzinger]

who wasn't part of the core. kessel being the most skilled player on a team doesn't win a cup let alone playoff round (aka leafs). i'd argue 5th best piece anyways.

Even if you think he's 5th best player (though him being a hair away from winning the Conn Smythe woukd suggest otherwise), he's still part of the teams core...

 

[Jeypic]

Do both. But I think draft and develop has to be the main focus right now. The trade and signing aspect has been supplementing it perfectly right now though. Trades like the one that got us Connor carrick, or, even though it didn't really work out.. Grabner. Even the slightly bigger trades like the one that got us Andersen was probably still a smart move imo. Small signings like martin and polak to insulate the youth coming.

Once our team starts to make the playoffs and then transitions, from fringe to contender, so should our strategy. That's the time to start signing the big free agents. That's the time to consider trading away futures for big pieces.

If you work the team building transition strategy properly, our team should be able to stay Competitive for a very long time.

 

[TLeafsFan]

Overall, I can't disagree with this, though there were times in the playoffs he was their best player.

--------------------------

Draft, develop, sign and trade for prospects, whom you develop.

Kapanen, Lindberg and Connor Carrick are all guys whom we've traded for. Prospects who have varying chances of playing for us long-term.

Zaitsev, Soshnikov and maybe Vesey are examples of signing undrafted Free agents.

So, five "prospects" whom we've traded for, or signed... plus maybe another.

Then we traded for Andersen... Signed Martin and Polak

Plus our drafted prospects....

But, with the cap, you need a lot of talented kids, on their Entry Level Contracts. So, we've back filled entry level guys, by drafting, trading AND signing.

One day, we will have some holes to fill, and that will be trade or sign.

For now, build the team around prospects, however we acquire them. Make sure you trade off excess prospects, for more picks, so that we can continually back fill our team with ELC players.

There is no, one OR the other... we need all strategies, and are already utilizing them.

Except Vesey was drafted. Other than that, one idea Shanny has locked down when it comes to TOP forward and D positions. Something past management on the Leafs seemed completely unaware of its importance in the cap era.

Those are the players you need to draft and develop yourself or it will cost your future dearly if you trade for one and you may not even end up with a player good enough to carry your team.

 

[colchar]

It doesn't have to be either/or. Draft and develop but fill holes with players from outside the organization when necessary/possible.

 

[Mess]

That's the way I think too, seems like we're the minority though

The draft and develop portion of Leafs Nation that has been screaming for decades for the team to to do this, is far smaller then the fans that like trades and UFA signings to shape the team around.

The philosophical difference is based around patience verses impatiences. Trading for ready made vets like Kessel instead of using top draft picks yourself accelerates the time line of waiting for young players to develop and make the same impact as the instant help. However the draft rebuild crowd would vehemently hate trading away top 5 picks (Seguin) to shortcut the process and still have to endure the team losing and finishing low and already have given away those picks earned through fan suffering.

You see this great divide in beliefs even when it comes to tanking verses not tanking mentality.. Leafs losing in the present as a necessary evil of acceptance to get the highest pick like Matthews, only appeals to the draft and develop crowd to build your core around elite high picks of your own. Fans that need and want the team to win at all cost in the present don't put much value on the draft pick position, because the draft is not the key building block nor youth/kids and are just fine signing and trading for the core group of vets.

This was seen in the current Shanaplan verses the Burke team building strategies that were polar opposite in belief of assembling our core primarily internally verses externally.

 

[Randy Randerson]

The draft and develop portion of Leafs Nation that has been screaming for decades for the team to to do this, is far smaller then the fans that like trades and UFA signings to shape the team around.

The philosophical difference is based around patience verses impatiences. Trading for ready made vets like Kessel instead of using top draft picks yourself accelerates the time line of waiting for young players to develop and make the same impact as the instant help. However the draft rebuild crowd would vehemently hate trading away top 5 picks (Seguin) to shortcut the process and still have to endure the team losing and finishing low and already have given away those picks earned through fan suffering.

You see this great divide in beliefs even when it comes to tanking verses not tanking mentality.. Leafs losing in the present as a necessary evil of acceptance to get the highest pick like Matthews, only appeals to the draft and develop crowd to build your core around elite high picks of your own. Fans that need and want the team to win at all cost in the present don't put much value on the draft pick position, because the draft is not the key building block nor youth/kids and are just fine signing and trading for the core group of vets.

This was seen in the current Shanaplan verses the Burke team building strategies that were polar opposite in belief of assembling our core primarily internally verses externally.

It's nice to finally have a management group that doesn't chase instant gratification, and amazing how fast lady luck smiled on us - our first full season of a tear down resulting in a first overall pick in a year with a Franchise-to-Near-Generational upside Centre available. The abandonment of trying to draft low ceiling/high floor players I think has also helped, we certainly have some guys in the pipeline now who's stock has risen dramatically since their drafts.

I think the win-now segment of Leafs Nation will come around when they get to see the kids start to play, even this year before the team is good, because at least the results of being bad will be tangible on the ice. I still have a friend who wants to see them trade the prospects to go after a cup right away (including the big 3 if necessary), but I've definitely seen a change in the attitude of most of the leaf fans I know and they now seem content to wait and watch en route to a sustainable contender. I guess there's no guarantees that it works, but outside of Edmonton it seems to have worked for everyone and I think even the Oilers will have to get really good with all of those high picks.

 

[Stephen]

The only reason to value the draft process is because no team in its right mind will give you all the pieces you need to win a championship through trade... and on paper it looks like we've done pretty well stocking on some unique prospects the past few years.

That said, if we have to trade for Drew Doughty one day or something like that to complete the puzzle, I'm not going to like him any less because we didn't draft him.