Building A Contender (fingers crossed) - Draft & Develop VS. Trade & Sign

[Randy Randerson]

Just to kill some time in August as we approach what I think is the most intriguing Leafs season in a long time (excited to watch the kids, not delusional about how we'll fare this year):

Do leaf fans think it will be more satisfying to Draft & Develop the core group of players for what we hope will be a decade-long contender versus how the '92-'94 Leafs were assembled through lots of signings and trades? In each of those years, 40-50% of the team's top 10 scorers were leaf's draft picks

Assuming this rebuild works and Assuming that the core of this version of the leafs has a higher ratio of home grown players as it appears that it will, to me it seems like watching the whole process unfold will be much more satisfying than the way it was done in the early 90's where "Hockey Trades" happened more frequently. Might be a byproduct of playing too much GM mode....

what do you guys think?

(PS - I acknowledge that some good pieces came through the draft for the early 90's leafs and that that no contender is going to be built using only one avenue, but it looks like this team will be more reliant on drafted pieces than the Gilmour/Clark version.)

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[aresknights]

Leaning on drafted n developed talent is more satisying to me, BUT "just win baby" is always the goal regardless the path.

My fav hockey team won a league championship with only a BUG and a 6th D as players who wore a different uni in their league than the team they won it with.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I Don't care how they do it, just do it

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I Don't care how they do it, just do it

This.

Why would anyone care HOW they do it other than to satiate themselves?

 

[jayswagger]

I agree - just win.

But to me, there's something special about attributing a hopeful Leafs Stanley Cup Victory to the Leafs own staff, scouts, medical, training, coaches and other support folks....that will help the players we've drafted get to the level where they reach their potential.

I like the fact that we are talking about Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Riley, Kadri etc and not some players we've acquired through a trade.

 

[Randy Randerson]

This.

Why would anyone care HOW they do it other than to satiate themselves?

Well ya, that's sort of what I meant: to me it would be ultimately satisfying to win with "our" guys that we watched get drafted and got all the other little satisfactions along the way like Marner winning all the CHL hardware this year. Isn't the point of being a sports fan to derive as much vicarious joy as possible?

Didn't mean to say that I'm against winning by another means, I just think it will be more fun to watch the whole thing unfold. Drafted & Developed core teams are also usually sustainable contenders for a while too

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Well ya, that's sort of what I meant: to me it would be ultimately satisfying to win with "our" guys that we watched get drafted and got all the other little satisfactions along the way like Marner winning all the CHL hardware this year. Isn't the point of being a sports fan to derive as much vicarious joy as possible?

Didn't mean to say that I'm against winning by another means, I just think it will be more fun to watch the whole thing unfold. Drafted & Developed core teams are also usually sustainable contenders for a while too

I just don't see how drafting them yourself gives you any more joy?

Makes no sense to me.

 

[ACC1224]

I just don't see how drafting them yourself gives you any more joy?

Makes no sense to me.

Me either, although as Leaf fans we don't have much to compare it to.

 

[Mad Brills*]

It's both.

The reigning cup champs developed crosby/malkin/murray/letang, but also made smart signings in cullen/fehr and trades with kessel/hagelin/bonino/kunitz.

 

[Buds17]

Have to use - and be adept at - all facets, but I'd rank them:

1) Draft-considering age, cap

2) Trades-potential higher risk/reward than UFA (have to hope what's acquired is better than what's dealt, but players might be
younger/better than UFAs)

3) Free Agency-still important, but not what it was due to the cap/extra year available when re-signing players. Might find a
valuable piece with undrafted types.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I just don't see how drafting them yourself gives you any more joy?

Makes no sense to me.

Me either, although as Leaf fans we don't have much to compare it to.

Fair enough, maybe its just me - I like the process part. I guess that largely answers my question though, most don't care how we get there as long as we do

It's both.

The reigning cup champs developed crosby/malkin/murray/letang, but also made smart signings in cullen/fehr and trades with kessel/hagelin/bonino/kunitz.

Ya I meant the core, like the early 90's teams were Gilmour, Clark, Anderson/Andrechuk, Potvin etc where at this point I think we would expect Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Reilly and I guess maybe Anderssen to be the future core plus maybe whoever we draft with next year's first rounder, just a more draft-centric group than the '92-'94. I don't expect that every player on the future leafs will be home grown, just most of the core

 

[Randy Randerson]

Have to use - and be adept at - all facets, but I'd rank them:

1) Draft-considering age, cap

2) Trades-potential higher risk/reward than UFA (have to hope what's acquired is better than what's dealt, but players might be younger/better than UFAs)

3) Free Agency-still important, but not what it was due to the cap/extra year available when re-signing players

Let's hope that we do #1 (where I'd also slot over-age signings that develop in our system) so well that the others become less important. If all the picks turn out we could have a dynamite future team already:

JVR-Matthews-Marner
Timashov-Nylander-Brown
Kapanen-Kadri-Bracco
Leivo-Holland-Soshnikov

Rielly-Liljegren
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Marincin-Carrick

Anderssen
Sparks/Bibeau/backup

With: Johnson, Lindberg, Leipsic, Neilson, Dermott, the whole 2016 draft class save for Matthews etc to spare. Looks crazy deep right now and they just keep adding

 

[ACC1224]

Fair enough, maybe its just me - I like the process part. I guess that largely answers my question though, most don't care how we get there as long as we do

For me, I'm impatient always have been. I'll always take the quickest approach to anything. With the cap there is no choice but to draft and patiently develop.

No cap, I'd be pushing every day for them to buy a Team.

 

[Nithoniniel]

It doesn't matter what tool they use, as long as they use it appropriately and expertly.

 

[Randy Randerson]

For me, I'm impatient always have been. I'll always take the quickest approach to anything. With the cap there is no choice but to draft and patiently develop.

No cap, I'd be pushing every day for them to buy a Team.

That probably summarizes it well - the whole delayed gratification theory and whether that makes the gratification more satisfying, some will say yes and some want their cake right now haha

Its actually sort of amazing that we weren't able to buy a cup in the pre-cap era with our total lack of a spending limit under the pension fund ownership. We should have been able to ice sustainable contenders through free agency like the Yankees

 

[canadon]

I would be happy to see the Leafs win a Cup in my lifetime with any strategic tools they use. Deep inside though, I think it would add an additional bit of satisfaction watching "our" guys growing with the team and being a huge part of the solution.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Trades have to happen. We will ultimately have to deal from a position of strength to address a position of need. Shanahan is synonymous with the Detroit powerhouse, Roy with the Colorado powerhouse and Stevens with the New Jersey powerhouse. None drafted by those teams.

 

[Buds17]

Let's hope that we do #1 (where I'd also slot over-age signings that develop in our system) so well that the others become less important. If all the picks turn out we could have a dynamite future team already:

JVR-Matthews-Marner
Timashov-Nylander-Brown
Kapanen-Kadri-Bracco
Leivo-Holland-Soshnikov

Rielly-Liljegren
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Marincin-Carrick

Anderssen
Sparks/Bibeau/backup

With: Johnson, Lindberg, Leipsic, Neilson, Dermott, the whole 2016 draft class save for Matthews etc to spare. Looks crazy deep right now and they just keep adding

That team is a good mix of draft, trades, and undrafted free agents. We'll see what it'll look like when we make significant progress, but I agree drafting is huge, especially when we aren't making the playoffs.

 

[rojac]

I would honestly be bored with a team that only drafted and developed players and never made a trade or signed a free agent.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Trades have to happen. We will ultimately have to deal from a position of strength to address a position of need. Shanahan is synonymous with the Detroit powerhouse, Roy with the Colorado powerhouse and Stevens with the New Jersey powerhouse. None drafted by those teams.

for sure, nothing happens in absolute and there will be a mix. I think the days of team cores being entirely acquired vs developed are over though, the cap era sort of necessitates that

 

[Mad Brills*]

The core is hopefully the big 3, rielly, gardiner, andersen, jvr and kadri.

Brown/Leivo could be a nice pieces as well.

Though I do think the leafs need on defense will eventually be filled through a trade.

 

[Randy Randerson]

The core is hopefully the big 3, rielly, gardiner, andersen, jvr and kadri.

Brown/Leivo could be a nice pieces as well.

Though I do think the leafs need on defense will eventually be filled through a trade.

If we're bad enough/lottery lucky enough this year to get Liljegren and Zaitsev is as good as billed, I think the defense is actually in pretty good shape. But ya there's a hole in the top pairing right now - nice to have it potentially isolated to one need even if its the hardest one to get

 

[highslot]

Just to kill some time in August as we approach what I think is the most intriguing Leafs season in a long time (excited to watch the kids, not delusional about how we'll fare this year):

Do leaf fans think it will be more satisfying to Draft & Develop the core group of players for what we hope will be a decade-long contender versus how the '92-'94 Leafs were assembled through lots of signings and trades? In each of those years, 40-50% of the team's top 10 scorers were leaf's draft picks

Assuming this rebuild works, to me it seems like watching the whole process unfold will be much more satisfying than the way it was done in the early 90's where "Hockey Trades" happened more frequently. Might be a byproduct of playing too much GM mode....

what do you guys think?

(PS - I acknowledge that some good pieces came through the draft for the early 90's leafs, but it looks like this team will be more reliant on drafted pieces than the Gilmour/Clark version.)

drafting is the core for two reasons

1) salary cap. it's harder to afford the free agents but the ones you sign generally won't be the core these days. chi and la and pitts, still drafted their core.

2) most trades initially started with draft picks. you can't get anything valuable unless you have anything valuable. you have to start somewhere. if i remember, it was gilmour for leeman?

 

[Mad Brills*]

Except penguins won the cup with a trade piece being their 3rd best player

 

[theIceWookie]

I just don't see how drafting them yourself gives you any more joy?

Makes no sense to me.

It's because there is a mystical XP bonus that is unlocked in a player when you draft him. However if a player moves on from the team he was originally drafted from, he loses that mystical XP bonus.

There is also an additional hometown XP bonus for players drafted from your teams rough geographical region. This bonus is also available to be unlocked if your team signs or trades for a hometown player (though at an 80 percent value of the full bonus. The full bonus is only available to team drafted hometown players).

Canadian players receive a slight boost for the "Don Cherry" XP bonus. And Ontario players receive can achieve a 10 percent boost on this XP for being "good ole Ontaria boyz".

Other Bonuses available:

Intangibles: Players with these skills can achieve up to a 7.5 percent XP bonus for displaying these skills. This is a sliding scale bonus. The more the intangible skill can't be qualified, the higher the percentage boost until it maxes at 7.5 percent. A player can receive a short term 2 percent boost on top of this 7.5 percent maximum when they display toughness by playing through an injury, though this does lead to an exponentially decreasing HP rating which can unfortunately be maxed out at a full loss of HP. Coaches should be warned to not overuse the short term 2 percent toughness boost for longer than one period as it leads to long term HP penalties.

Momentum: This can be achieved through a big hit, a fight, or a sick play. This adds up to a 10 percent boost onto teammates attack points that can last up to 5 minutes. This boost will randomly affect one or more teammates (no maximum teammates effected). This bonus has a higher boost at home (where it a momentum boost can achieve up to 12.5 percent) than away. fighting or hits can lead to a reduction in health points for that individual player though, so be careful.

Certain players can boost others players HP, attack points and overall XP points. Goalies can negatively or positively effect defenders. Star players can affect other players attack points while on the ice. Bigger and stronger players can provide simple defense boosts to star players when they play together. Some players can also negatively affect attack points.

Stay at home defenders receive a 10-20 percent reduction in defensive points when a speedy opponent is on the ice. Goalies receive a scaling reduction in defensive points when a sniper is on.