Proposal: Buffalo needs a second line center

[lifeisruff]

Two general points

1. Whoever we trade with better be willing to take some cap back (Berglund, Moulson, Okposo)

2. We really don't need a 2nd line center as much as we need a third line center. Mittelstadt will be fine long term, and we probably aren't going anywhere if Eichel goes down regardless. It's not like the Sabres have hit their prime yet and need to hold the Jerry rig a playoff spot with or without Eichel.

 

[bernmeister]

We trade 3 first rounders and the surest thing we get back is Zib????

There is little certainty in any of the other elements besides Zib, so why the inferred complaint?
There has been too little history esp NHL level to not consider Andersson 7OA value at this point. He projects to be a 2C w/generic 1C upside [generic, not supplanting Eichel or other such 1C]. His skating is not fluid but fully gets the job done. Ditto not being a silky smooth passer or a top sniper, simply is effective with a hustling motor and not unimportantly, fire of competitive drive.

So why deal?
Prefer Chytil [special talent], Howden [great wheels], returning Hayes and Nieves as my 4. Stopgaps for depth. Lias may/may not beat out Chytil/Howden, but I prefer to repurpose his value than, if he gets beat out, gives us a superior bottom 6 pivot.

Don't overlook you are getting 3 2nds to defray vs surrender of the 3 1sts, of which 2 have conditions.
Consider it thus:
Ollofsson is highly regarded, but is not here now. Right now can't say for sure who is ultimately better but it is a high value pivot now for a talented but raw RD later. Small edge, Andersson.

The 1sts are obviously worth more than the 2nds, even if TB wins it all - not in the bag, but better than decent chance -- and that morphs into a 1st. It is unclear what Blues will do if they have option to keep that pick this year; the right to collect on it may have to be rolled over. All that said, Zib is teriff equalizer.

So, what's the beef?

 

[bernmeister]

Classic bern. 3 seconds tho!!!

Says a guy who would argue with me if I said water was wet.

 

[Jame]

There is little certainty in any of the other elements besides Zib, so why the inferred complaint?

If you have to ask....

There has been too little history esp NHL level to not consider Andersson 7OA value at this point. He projects to be a 2C w/generic 1C upside [generic, not supplanting Eichel or other such 1C]. His skating is not fluid but fully gets the job done. Ditto not being a silky smooth passer or a top sniper, simply is effective with a hustling motor and not unimportantly, fire of competitive drive.

I'm not sure I'd trade Stl 2020 1st for Andersson straight up. It has nothing to do with Andersson though...

If Buffalo's arrow is pointing up, the opportunity to pocket a top 10 pick while being a top 10 team is golden. Pushing the ELC of that contract to start in 2020-21 vs having to pay Andersson's 2nd contract the same year... is huge for cap management

Consider it thus:
Ollofsson is highly regarded, but is not here now. Right now can't say for sure who is ultimately better but it is a high value pivot now for a talented but raw RD later. Small edge, Andersson.

Oloffson is a winger.

The 1sts are obviously worth more than the 2nds, even if TB wins it all - not in the bag, but better than decent chance -- and that morphs into a 1st. It is unclear what Blues will do if they have option to keep that pick this year; the right to collect on it may have to be rolled over. All that said, Zib is teriff equalizer.

So, what's the beef?

Trading 1st for 2nds, to grab a prospect who's ELC lines up with Dahlin's and a young veteran whose contract doesn't make sense for us.

If Buffalo is going to trade 3-4 1st rounders, they should just offersheet someone who is an impact player... Marner, Point, Connor, Meier, Trouba

 

[bernmeister]

If you have to ask....



I'm not sure I'd trade Stl 2020 1st for Andersson straight up. It has nothing to do with Andersson though...

If Buffalo's arrow is pointing up, the opportunity to pocket a top 10 pick while being a top 10 team is golden. Pushing the ELC of that contract to start in 2020-21 vs having to pay Andersson's 2nd contract the same year... is huge for cap management




Oloffson is a winger.



Trading 1st for 2nds, to grab a prospect who's ELC lines up with Dahlin's and a young veteran whose contract doesn't make sense for us.

If Buffalo is going to trade 3-4 1st rounders, they should just offersheet someone who is an impact player... Marner, Point, Connor, Meier, Trouba

Fair enough and won't parse this with you.
Either you want the certainty of 2 NHL ready guys now vs unknown of picks and projection on Olof, or you want, for better or worse, what is behind door #2, ie, the better picks getting to the NHL most likely coupla years away.

As to the offer sheet scenario, no argument there, other than de facto, offer sheets are typically matched, and doing one invites reciprocation.
You need both depth and high end talent to win, my suggestion is a talent add while retaining lots of depth [3 2nds, one a possible 1st]. If successful - big if vs likelihood of being matched - the offer sheet scenario would be certain high end talent but would certainly cost depth [no 2nds].
We expect Trouba to go to FL, so he may well be off that list.
The others are legit targets.

I would also not discount Zib.
Relative to "impact", sure he is not the upside of others, nor as obviously dominant as say Kreider, but he is clearly a solid positive on the ice.

peace out

 

[sfoote]

Carter for Thompson+Laaksonen+2nd

Hell no.

 

[sfoote]

Does Kotkaniemi for Scandella + Sobotka seem fair?

You must really hate the Habs to have them get bent over this badly.

 

[DatDude44]

Not enough for RNH . If that was all that was offer up it would be a quick pass from Edmonton

Really? i feel like it's pretty good value for Nuge and gives you guys a talented cost controlled winger who seems to be coming into his own as a 20 Y.O. this year in nylander, with a mid-late 1st and a serviceable 3rd liner in berglund who at least can help with your depth issues in the middle/bottom 6. For a 60 pt center (who can put up 70 obviously playing on mcdavids wing)

what if they changed the sj 1st to the buffalo 1st?

 

[Jame]

Fair enough and won't parse this with you.
Either you want the certainty of 2 NHL ready guys now vs unknown of picks and projection on Olof, or you want, for better or worse, what is behind door #2, ie, the better picks getting to the NHL most likely coupla years away.

That's pretty much it. Although your framing of the positive certainty and negative unknown ignores a lot of the nuance in the value each.

As to the offer sheet scenario, no argument there, other than de facto, offer sheets are typically matched, and doing one invites reciprocation.

While the RFA Offersheet has been basically extinct for awhile... I think the surge in RFA costs over the last 2 years is going to bring them back.

You need both depth and high end talent to win, my suggestion is a talent add while retaining lots of depth [3 2nds, one a possible 1st].

We have depth, short term cap space, and a quality pipeline of prospects knocking on the door. The trade you proposed would increase strength of a short term window, while putting at serious risk the longer term window.

If successful - big if vs likelihood of being matched - the offer sheet scenario would be certain high end talent but would certainly cost depth [no 2nds].
We expect Trouba to go to FL, so he may well be off that list.
The others are legit targets.

I don't really view 2nd rounders as depth builders... at best, they are rental currency.
Toronto has 12 1st rounders on their roster... and 2 2nd rounders. 1st rounders build depth, not 2nd rounders. Buffalo also has 12 1st rounders on their roster...

I would also not discount Zib.
Relative to "impact", sure he is not the upside of others, nor as obviously dominant as say Kreider, but he is clearly a solid positive on the ice.

I'm not discounting him. But over the course of his remaining contract, he'd the 2nd/3rd line checking center for the Sabres. So while he has a strong history of 40-50 point production, and is having a great year as the #1 in NY this year... he simply wouldn't have the role/opportunity to produce those numbers in Buffalo where Eichel is the obvious #1 and Mittelstadt is the long term 2nd scoring line center. And while I see a ton of value in that matchup/checking line role... paying 5.35 over 4 years when we will have other huge contracts to pay, players with the capability to play that role coming up the pipeline, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

peace out

cheers

 

[McSuper]

Really? i feel like it's pretty good value for Nuge and gives you guys a talented cost controlled winger who seems to be coming into his own as a 20 Y.O. this year in nylander, with a mid-late 1st and a serviceable 3rd liner in berglund who at least can help with your depth issues in the middle/bottom 6. For a 60 pt center (who can put up 70 obviously playing on mcdavids wing)

what if they changed the sj 1st to the buffalo 1st?

There more to consider then straight up value . RNH is a home grown talent whom coaches rave about . The offer is fair value but It does not improve the Oilers today . I may consider it at the draft . Depends on the pick and also the Oilers pick .

 

[cgf]

He likely will be down the road but as of now he is only a second line center because he centers our 2nd line.

Can the Avs have him then?

Brayden Schenn for our first back.

Any chance y’all would trade Schenn within the division?

 

[Sabre the Win]

If LA is going to move Carter, I think they would be looking to get younger. Reinhart would probably be their target, or at least should be in a deal for Jeff Carter.

Guaranteed you will never get that from us nor would Carter ever be worth Reinhart 1 for 1.

Age wise it would make no sense, why would we want a 34 year old player 10 years older than Reinhart.

 

[Sabre the Win]

Says a guy who would argue with me if I said water was wet.

Water isnt wet tho, water is water, you get wet from water being on you.

 

[Holymakinaw]

It has been a void since the departure of O'Reilly. Secondary scoring is also struggling, and if Eichel/Skinner go cold, they are in trouble (or if Eichel gets hurt, which is a valid concern, given his previous seasons, we will have either Mittlestadt or Sobotka as our #1 center). The thought of either of those centering the top line for an extended time should frighten any Sabre fan.

We have potentially 3 first round picks next year and some good prospects that I'd be willing to offer up for the right player. Ollofsson, Nylander and Nelson. Heck, I would even consider Pilut or Mittlestadt but the latter will cost you big time.

We may have dump Berglund to make salary work.

You'll definitely have to dump SOMEONE to make something work.

 

[TkachukNorris79]

I would think Tierney has more value to Ottawa than Pageau?

He was a big piece of the Karlsson deal, I think they’d like to re-sign him to a bit of a longer term deal (4-5yrs?).

I wonder about Dzingel as a UFA. I know he’s been used on the wing most of this year. But, Can he play center effectively? If so, I’d go after him as a UFA and try not to spend assets if not necessary.

It's really tough to say. I think they're both very similar players, but I doubt the sens keep both. Tierney has the Karlsson trade thing going for him, but if he lands a 2nd and decent prospect, that can basically be added to the Karlsson return in place of Tierney.

As for Pageau, he's a tad older and a little more expensive, but he's also a fan favourite, and a local guy. The injury also affects things. Tough to see where they go with that.

In terms of Dzingel, I've never actually seen him play center. He's always the backup option on faceoffs and actually seems to be pretty decent at it, but I really can't see him being a center in the NHL. His defensive game leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Shootertooter]

At best Hayes is a 2nd liner and he's an impending UFA. I wouldn't be the team that gives a 1st round pick for that. You were lucky you got a 1st + for a completely shot Rick Nash last year. You can't count on fleecing GM's every year.
As for the premise of the thread, yes we could definitely use a 2nd line center. I have no interest in trading 1st round picks or good prospects for one.

So you don't want to pay for a 2nd line C but want one anyway. Good luck in your quest.

 

[cgf]

forget Hayes
he will be rental w/decent chance to return to Gotham
he' somebody's rental, not for you.

package deal:
Zib + Andersson + NYR 2019 + 2020 2nds + TB 2019 2nd can morph into 1st
for
Sabes 2019 1st [unconditional] + Ollofsson + StL + SJ 2019 1sts [both conditional]

5 assets for 4
Sabes get 2 guys for right now and only surrender 1 from the names above
Zib is a good deal and decent bet to extend at doable #
Lias is cost controlled just beginning elc
2 2nds min this yr [one is a possible 1st] defray later 2 conditional 1sts, which may get rolled over

Rangers get picks they need
good RD prospect

gamble on Chytil, Howden, returning Hayes and Nieves et al = minimum pivot presence as they scale down to a basic core

If Sabres fans pass, wanna send Zibby to Colorado for Timmins + our 2019 1st + a conditional 2020 1st*? Just cutting out one of the 1sts you’re receiving while keeping Andersson & those 2nds.

*or Kerfoot / Bowers

 

[HuGo Sham]

Does Kotkaniemi for Scandella + Sobotka seem fair?

just say no to drugs

 

[Djp]

Fair enough and won't parse this with you.
Either you want the certainty of 2 NHL ready guys now vs unknown of picks and projection on Olof, or you want, for better or worse, what is behind door #2, ie, the better picks getting to the NHL most likely coupla years away.

As to the offer sheet scenario, no argument there, other than de facto, offer sheets are typically matched, and doing one invites reciprocation.
You need both depth and high end talent to win, my suggestion is a talent add while retaining lots of depth [3 2nds, one a possible 1st]. If successful - big if vs likelihood of being matched - the offer sheet scenario would be certain high end talent but would certainly cost depth [no 2nds].
We expect Trouba to go to FL, so he may well be off that list.
The others are legit targets.

I would also not discount Zib.
Relative to "impact", sure he is not the upside of others, nor as obviously dominant as say Kreider, but he is clearly a solid positive on the ice.

peace out

Does peace out mean you will stop posted one side crazy ass threads for Sabre pkayers or 1st round picks
.

 

[Jame]

Does peace out mean you will stop posted one side crazy ass threads for Sabre pkayers or 1st round picks
.

The more I thought about his offer the less lopsided it appeared. The main problem is trading the stl 2020 1st for Andersson, while taking on another big cap number without dumping one. Squeezes the window to tight...

That St. Louis 2020 1st is untouchable it’s a potential Lafreniere ticket

 

[is the answer jesus]

So you don't want to pay for a 2nd line C but want one anyway. Good luck in your quest.

Correction I don't want to overpay for one just because we happen to need one at the moment. If a reasonably priced middle 6 center becomes available in free agency that's an option, or we could draft and develop our own. Mittlestadt is already with the big club, Asplund is developing down in Rochester and could be a perfect compliment to Eichel and Mittlestadt.

 

[Asymmetric Solution]

I’d say
Jeff Carter
For
SJS 1st
A. Nylander

No thanks.

 

[Claypool]

We'll give you Nielsen

 

[lawrence]

isn't Sam Reinhart their 2nd line centreman? He's a fine one too, what's wrong with him?

 

[Asymmetric Solution]

If LA is going to move Carter, I think they would be looking to get younger. Reinhart would probably be their target, or at least should be in a deal for Jeff Carter.

And Buffalo would say hell no. 22/23 year old 60 point winger (potential is much higher) for a declining 33 year old 60 point winger. It would be a swap of a similar player 10 years younger