Buffalo Duo vs. Aves Duo

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I'd probably rather have Dahlin than Makar going forward. Mack has a slight edge over Eichel.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Dahlin appears to have plateaued as a player. Same thing happened to Ekblad. Good player at a young age, but reached his ceiling early.

This will be one of the worst takes on the site, most likely by the next season.

 

[sparxx87]

Nope, he’s still treated as the next best defenseman. See literally any poll or discussion on it in the past years

Media coverage =/= hype

ffs, you literally stated your opinion was “he comes as advertised”. You know it’s there, you’re just being disingenuous

You don’t know what you’re talking about because you literally don’t have an opinion outside of “hype is real”

By who? HF? HF polls and discussions are the hype?

I think media that cover and present the league are largely responsible for hype or lack there of.

Yes, he comes as advertised. Much of what I heard prior to him joining the league turned out to be the same things I see when I watch him... I’m not sure why that’s so difficult for you to comprehend? Did you expect new and unique ideas about a player that’s been under the spotlight since he was 16?

 

[Emell]

By who? HF? HF polls and discussions are the hype?

I think media that cover and present the league are largely responsible for hype or lack there of.

Yes, he comes as advertised. Much of what I heard prior to him joining the league turned out to be the same things I see when I watch him... I’m not sure why that’s so difficult for you to comprehend? Did you expect new and unique ideas about a player that’s been under the spotlight since he was 16?

Again. Every discussion on it. You saying that he’s not the current hot story means very little to how people see and treat what they expect of him

The rest of your post is just confirming what I was saying. You’re just parroting vague scouting reports

 

[Fatass]

This will be one of the worst takes on the site, most likely by the next season.

Could be, but I’m seeing a lot of cherry ice time for Dahlin. As more defensive responsibility is placed upon him I see the plateau creeping in to his play. I believe we saw some of that plateau this past season. That’s why I picked Makar over Dahlin. Makar, if he plateaus like Dahlin is, will be at a higher level. He’s higher now, so the plateau (when it comes) will be higher. All players plateau; it’s at what height of play the plateau occurs that separates the great from the good players.

 

[67Leafs67]

Even though they were drafted two years apart, MacKinnon is only one year older than Eichel. Cale Makar is about one and a half years older than Dahlin.

Nathan MacKinnon vs Jack Eichel
I'd personally take Nathan MacKinnon on this one. They're actually quite similar players, in terms of driving play, and isolated contributions to GF, xGA, etc. While both are pretty much dead average in terms of xGA driving (RAPM), MacKinnon's impacts on GF are quite a bit higher (a full standard deviation), and this is reflected in 5v5 production. MacKinnon had 2.39 P1/60 this season, and Eichel had 1.34 P1/60, and before you go screaming about MacKinnon's superior teammate support, his IPP was 75.4% compared to Eichel's 63.6%, indicating the MacKinnon was far more relied upon to be contributing to the offense that his unit created while he was on the ice. MacKinnon also had better GF driving impacts on the power-play, and this was also reflected in production, where he had a higher goal and primary assist rate than Eichel, however, both had nearly identical IPP (83.8% vs 84.4%). The production isn't all just empty calories either. Nathan MacKinnon creates more ixG/60 in all situations, and had a slightly lower oiSh% (12.36% vs 12.41%), meaning Eichel & his teammates had better shooting than MacKinnon & his teammates (only ever so slightly), so it isn't like MacKinnon's stats were being padded by Landeskog, Rantanen, Makar, etc, being particularly better finishers than Olofsson, Reinhart, Skinner, etc. Random sidenote that his little bearing on the discussion at all, but I found it interesting. Eichel had 6 empty net points this season, compared to MacKinnon's 1. Both fantastic players, in the same realm of conversation, I'm giving the slight edge to MacKinnon. That one year difference in age though could change that.

Cale Makar vs Rasmus Dahlin
This is a harder one to discern, with the difference in age gap being more pronounced, with both guys further out from their peaks as well. I think if you are talking in the present moment, it is Cale Makar. He had a much better season by all accounts. Twice as productive at 5v5 primary points. Much better RAPM contributions, especially on offense, but also slightly better defensively. However, that difference between being born in 1998 and 2000 is not insignificant. Makar spent most of the year a 21 year old, and Dahlin an 19 year old. While Makar is a fantastic player, I would lean towards giving Dahlin the edge. I think he has a higher potential overall, and has jumped into the NHL much, much earlier than most players do. He's also already shown more GF driving ability on the PP at a younger age. I think his 2018-19 season especially showed more potential as to what he could become, even if this year was slightly more disappointing, and despite lower production and worse oiSh%, had a slightly higher IPP than Makar.

So overall, this is a really tight match. Two offensively inclined, elite franchise centers, and two budding number one, PP quarterbacking defensemen. The Avs duo has more to offer concrete, in the here and now, already shown and proven...but Sabres duo offers a bit more potential for growth, and might end up outgrowing the Avs duo in time.

I think anybody saying "____ AINEC" or "____ easily" is being pretty hyperbolic. This a good poll, good question, with no easy, obvious answer in my opinion. You can make a good argument for either side.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Even though they were drafted two years apart, MacKinnon is only one year older than Eichel. Cale Makar is about one and a half years older than Dahlin.

Nathan MacKinnon vs Jack Eichel
I'd personally take Nathan MacKinnon on this one. They're actually quite similar players, in terms of driving play, and isolated contributions to GF, xGA, etc. While both are pretty much dead average in terms of xGA driving (RAPM), MacKinnon's impacts on GF are quite a bit higher (a full standard deviation), and this is reflected in 5v5 production. MacKinnon had 2.39 P1/60 this season, and Eichel had 1.34 P1/60, and before you go screaming about MacKinnon's superior teammate support, his IPP was 75.4% compared to Eichel's 63.6%, indicating the MacKinnon was far more relied upon to be contributing to the offense that his unit created while he was on the ice. MacKinnon also had better GF driving impacts on the power-play, and this was also reflected in production, where he had a higher goal and primary assist rate than Eichel, however, both had nearly identical IPP (83.8% vs 84.4%). The production isn't all just empty calories either. Nathan MacKinnon creates more ixG/60 in all situations, and had a slightly lower oiSh% (12.36% vs 12.41%), meaning Eichel & his teammates had better shooting than MacKinnon & his teammates (only ever so slightly), so it isn't like MacKinnon's stats were being padded by Landeskog, Rantanen, Makar, etc, being particularly better finishers than Olofsson, Reinhart, Skinner, etc. Random sidenote that his little bearing on the discussion at all, but I found it interesting. Eichel had 6 empty net points this season, compared to MacKinnon's 1. Both fantastic players, in the same realm of conversation, I'm giving the slight edge to MacKinnon. That one year difference in age though could change that.

Cale Makar vs Rasmus Dahlin
This is a harder one to discern, with the difference in age gap being more pronounced, with both guys further out from their peaks as well. I think if you are talking in the present moment, it is Cale Makar. He had a much better season by all accounts. Twice as productive at 5v5 primary points. Much better RAPM contributions, especially on offense, but also slightly better defensively. However, that difference between being born in 1998 and 2000 is not insignificant. Makar spent most of the year a 21 year old, and Dahlin an 19 year old. While Makar is a fantastic player, I would lean towards giving Dahlin the edge. I think he has a higher potential overall, and has jumped into the NHL much, much earlier than most players do. He's also already shown more GF driving ability on the PP at a younger age. I think his 2018-19 season especially showed more potential as to what he could become, even if this year was slightly more disappointing, and despite lower production and worse oiSh%, had a slightly higher IPP than Makar.

So overall, this is a really tight match. Two offensively inclined, elite franchise centers, and two budding number one, PP quarterbacking defensemen. The Avs duo has more to offer concrete, in the here and now, already shown and proven...but Sabres duo offers a bit more potential for growth, and might end up outgrowing the Avs duo in time.

I think anybody saying "____ AINEC" or "____ easily" is being pretty hyperbolic. This a good poll, good question, with no easy, obvious answer in my opinion. You can make a good argument for either side.

Thank you for providing a reasonable explanation for taking Dahlin over Makar long term. It was more well thought out then some others just automatically picking Dahlin and not recognizing that Makar was the superior player this year.

 

[sparxx87]

Again. Every discussion on it. You saying that he’s not the current hot story means very little to how people see and treat what they expect of him

The rest of your post is just confirming what I was saying. You’re just parroting vague scouting reports

In your opinion, you mean.

So if you come to the same or similar conclusion about a player as someone else, does that mean you’re parroting their opinion, or just that you have the same one?

 

[Emell]

In your opinion, you mean.

So if you come to the same or similar conclusion about a player as someone else, does that mean you’re parroting their opinion, or just that you have the same one?

Still not my opinion

I love how you’re literally trying to defend not having an original thought and parroting what you were told he was at draft

Seriously, if you manage a coherent thought that does sound like you’re dancing around something you’re too scared to give a real opinion on, or sounds like you’re reading it off a pre-written script... then let me know

For now you’re clearly the epitome of uninformed fans doing a half hour of research years ago getting upset that you can’t just use that still. You don’t even have any logic backing up your original claim. You’re literally just parroting hype.

Seriously, let me know if you want an actual conversation

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Could be, but I’m seeing a lot of cherry ice time for Dahlin. As more defensive responsibility is placed upon him I see the plateau creeping in to his play. I believe we saw some of that plateau this past season. That’s why I picked Makar over Dahlin. Makar, if he plateaus like Dahlin is, will be at a higher level. He’s higher now, so the plateau (when it comes) will be higher. All players plateau; it’s at what height of play the plateau occurs that separates the great from the good players.

You know he was 19 for the entire season right?

There were reasons that he might not have been as productive as he could have been, either coaching or confidence or both, but he was again only 19 and didn't even really plateau so...


Due to the reasons I stated combined with the seasons the rookies had I can see why some might think he has fallen a bit behind, but he really hasn't and should pull ahead fairly soon. There is zero chance that he has plateaued at 19, and even if he has (he hasn't) this was him at 18/19.





Fan vids and not the best but still.

There aren't that many defensemen I'd take over Dahlin right now (especially this current point in time, where he is now 20 and has been working on his shot), and none going forward.

 

[Killer Orcas]

Dahlin has the potential to be the best of the four really but right now this is the Avs duo. Makar is special in his own right and shown more then Dahlin currently. Mack is arguably the 2nd best player in the league until Dahlin starts showing some of that potential this is Avs duo clearly.

 

[sparxx87]

Still not my opinion

I love how you’re literally trying to defend not having an original thought and parroting what you were told he was at draft

Seriously, if you manage a coherent thought that does sound like you’re dancing around something you’re too scared to give a real opinion on, or sounds like you’re reading it off a pre-written script... then let me know

For now you’re clearly the epitome of uninformed fans doing a half hour of research years ago getting upset that you can’t just use that still. You don’t even have any logic backing up your original claim. You’re literally just parroting hype.

Seriously, let me know if you want an actual conversation

So there’s a scientific measure of a players hype? Or is it all a matter of perspective and opinion?

I provided my thoughts. The finer details in his game, especially at his age, are what really make him special. I’m sorry if you don’t see it... And because my opinion aligns with something you’ve apparently heard before you’ve accused me of parroting. That’s your own ignorance, not mine.

Interesting you bring up being uninformed while telling a stranger on the internet what they think. I hope you see the irony in that. Nobody is upset, it’s just a poor use of my time to continue to engage with someone whose ignoring what’s been said because they’re more interested in ‘proving’ the player from their favourite team is better rather than considering why someone might prefer the other guy.

 

[Emell]

So there’s a scientific measure of a players hype? Or is it all a matter of perspective and opinion?

I provided my thoughts. The finer details in his game, especially at his age, are what really make him special. I’m sorry if you don’t see it... And because my opinion aligns with something you’ve apparently heard before you’ve accused me of parroting. That’s your own ignorance, not mine.

Interesting you bring up being uninformed while telling a stranger on the internet what they think. I hope you see the irony in that. Nobody is upset, it’s just a poor use of my time to continue to engage with someone whose ignoring what’s been said because they’re more interested in ‘proving’ the player from their favourite team is better rather than considering why someone might prefer the other guy.

Lol, honestly I find it hilarious that you’re trying to label facts as “just my opinion” since you have literally nothing to back your stance on it

And lol at you providing “your thoughts”. You mean you parroted what people told you in the past and then went full victim mode as soon as you were pressed to provide something with depth and coherency to your claims

You’re literally like a child who gets upset that their favorite player isn’t considered the best by another. You have no depth to your opinion. You have no critical thoughts that you can apply to the conversation in question. You literally just parrot vague, generalized claims you heard from other people. You’ve provided literally no original or complex thought on the matter

You’re even now going to go the cliche route of claiming actually presenting a respectable argument is “not worth your time” on your what... 10th post on the topic?

The funny part is you clearly know you’re doing this. If not then have my pity

 

[Connor McConnor]

Homer-voted the Avs duo, but it’s very close in my mind and can’t really blame people for going with the Buffalo guys.

Dahlin - Makar:

I give the edge long term to Dahlin. Mostly because I think he’ll live up to his draft hype as being the top defender in the game. His combination of size, skating, and IQ should make him excellent defensively. Makar’s defence as a rookie impressed me, but it’s going to be hard for him to defend as well as Dahlin, given the size/reach advantage of Rasmus.

On the offensive side, Dahlin is so nimble and creative I think he’ll put up big numbers as well. He does some things better than Makar on that side of the puck imo. He’s a little niftier with his hands and has a better slap shot. I personally still think Makar will continue to produce more 5V5 because of his superior explosion and top end speed.

MacKinnon - Eichel

I prefer MacKinnon by a bit moving forward. Eichel is an amazing talent who is still improving, but I don’t think he’ll be better than what MacKinnon is now. Maybe as good at his top-end, but I’m not certain. I don’t know if Eichel will have quite the take over game ability that MacKinnon does. I also value what MacK has brought to the post season. Though, in Eichel’s defence, he hasn’t had a chance to prove himself yet. MacKinnon’s led a poorly constructed roster to the playoffs in the past. Eichel hasn’t done that yet. I’m sure Buffalo will turn it around soon, I just haven’t seen it to this point.

Overall the two pairs are quite close. I can understand the argument from both sides.

An unbiased, informed response? This can't be HF Boards.

Well written - I agree with almost everything you said.

 

[missionAvs]

Could be, but I’m seeing a lot of cherry ice time for Dahlin. As more defensive responsibility is placed upon him I see the plateau creeping in to his play. I believe we saw some of that plateau this past season. That’s why I picked Makar over Dahlin. Makar, if he plateaus like Dahlin is, will be at a higher level. He’s higher now, so the plateau (when it comes) will be higher. All players plateau; it’s at what height of play the plateau occurs that separates the great from the good players.

I think your use of the word plateau is what needs to plateau right about now.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I just think it’s a real disservice to what Makar did this year, to look at a guy who played worse in Dahlin and say, “throw him on Colorado and he does the same thing.”

The Avs weren’t that special before Makar showed up btw.

You can't compare the most dysfunctional team in the league with a team that made the playoffs before Makar even showed up.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I find it incredible how so many people write off how poorly Dahlin was used this season. He's probably the most misused player in the league. Here's an in-depth post I wrote about it that explains how badly he's been misused in Buffalo.

Dahlin’s Usage

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

You can't compare the most dysfunctional team in the league with a team that made the playoffs before Makar even showed up.

Makar is good, but Dahlin is just next level right now.

 

[Mez]

wow so many people selling Dhalin short....kid is already great on a terrible team and hes still so young.

 

[Lemonlimey]

wow so many people selling Dhalin short....kid is already great on a terrible team and hes still so young.

Maybe a few but Dahlin getting lots of love. Just poor optics for him that Makar popped off when Buffalo was stuck in the mud

 

[TheRarestDangles]

this is one of the best polls in HF history. dont even know who id choose tbh

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

You could go either way on Makar / Dahlin.

Mackinnon's clearly > Eichel. That's what tips it for me.

McDavid might be the only player in the league I'd take over MacKinnon at this point.

 

[Lemonlimey]

McDavid might be the only player in the league I'd take over MacKinnon at this point.

Edmonton/Colorado would be so fun for this