Buffalo Bills Buffalo Bills 2016-17: Part VII (7-9) – The Tyrod Decision & Free Agency

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Jim Bob

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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...niels-will-have-three-interviews-on-saturday/

As explained by Ben Volin of the Boston Globe, McDaniels will interview with three teams on Saturday for their vacant head-coaching positions.

The Rams, Jaguars, and 49ers will interview McDaniels in separate suites at a hotel near Gillette Stadium. Those three teams (and only those three teams) would then be able to interview McDaniels a second time in the week after the AFC title game, if the Patriots qualify for Super Bowl LI.

Patriots defensive coordinator Matt Patricia also will be interviewing for a pair of jobs, with the Rams and Chargers. Likewise, director of player personnel Nick Caserio will interview for the vacant G.M. position in San Francisco.

Given the track record of the Belichick tree, I don't see it as a bad thing that the Bills aren't in on NE coordinators.
 

Lindy Puff

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Not when you consider the assets he has available to himself.

He sold some assets for $2B cash to buy the Bills.

If his net worth went from $30k to $40k in the same timeframe, you would blink.

The same thing applies if it was $3M to $4M.

So, I don't think it's a lot for a smart businessperson to see a 25% increase in net worth over that timeframe. And honestly, I don't think that much of an increase can be attributed to ripping off NHL and NFL fans. We don't buy that many tickets and jerseys.

Don't we sell out almost every game? Both bills and Sabres... also assets are included in net worth. So the 2 billion he sold to buy the bills really doesn't matter it was still included with his net worth even before he sold it.
 
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Icicle

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Pegula is infinitely better than penny pinching, felonious crap we dealt with for decades. Patty, like Kelly, has a notoriously huge ego that was going to find his way out of a job working for any owner in the league. Patty wanted to win now and not tank. If you fault Pegula for anything, it's for believing Patty and delaying the Sabres rebuild. Same with the Bills- they spent literally a billion of their own dollars saving this team from the yearly Toronto talks. He took what they saw as the safest, most experienced in their division, option. With what we had, I'm pretty sure that's what all Bills fans were proud of doing. The mistake was letting him change our top-class defensive scheme and utterly destroying it in the process.

The guy isn't getting richer off of losing team's merch sales. His investments are long-term and they're losers right now. His net worth goes up because owning sports teams is an ever inflating prospect. That's not cash on hand. Paying out tens of millions to eat mistakes of coaches/players contracts is not making him wealthy. I find it surreal people are making him out to be evil.
 

Jim Bob

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Don't we sell out almost every game? Both bills and Sabres... also assets are included in net worth. So the 2 billion he sold to buy the bills really doesn't matter it was still included with his net worth even before he sold it.

NFL and NHL teams aren't profitable enough to generate $1B in positive cashflow in such a short time frame.
 

Lindy Puff

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Pegula is infinitely better than penny pinching, felonious crap we dealt with for decades. Patty, like Kelly, has a notoriously huge ego that was going to find his way out of a job working for any owner in the league. Patty wanted to win now and not tank. If you fault Pegula for anything, it's for believing Patty and delaying the Sabres rebuild. Same with the Bills- they spent literally a billion of their own dollars saving this team from the yearly Toronto talks. He took what they saw as the safest, most experienced in their division, option. With what we had, I'm pretty sure that's what all Bills fans were proud of doing. The mistake was letting him change our top-class defensive scheme and utterly destroying it in the process.

The guy isn't getting richer off of losing team's merch sales. His investments are long-term and they're losers right now. His net worth goes up because owning sports teams is an ever inflating prospect. That's not cash on hand. Paying out tens of millions to eat mistakes of coaches/players contracts is not making him wealthy. I find it surreal people are making him out to be evil.

What about pegula trying to be Jerry Jones?
 

Jim Bob

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Feb 27, 2002
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Rochester, NY
is it wrong to want a college head coach over an nfl coordinator? I'd just rather see a guy who has spent the last few years doing the job you want him to do here

There is no real blueprint for successful coaching hires.

Some coordinators get their first shot and work out well. Others don't.

Some former NFL head coaches get a shot and work out well. Others don't.

Some college coaches get a shot and work out well. Others don't.

The best NFL head coaching prospects in college (Nick Saban, Jim Harbaugh, and David Shaw) don't look like they have any reason to leave college for any job and most certainly won't leave to join the Bills as they are currently run.

If you want to look at a college coach that you might be able to get to Buffalo, the most interesting option for me would be Coastal Carolina head coach Joe Moglia.

An NFL head coach is more of a CEO than an Xs and Os guy. One thing is for sure with Moglia: you know he can be the CEO type.
 

Lindy Puff

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NFL and NHL teams aren't profitable enough to generate $1B in positive cashflow in such a short time frame.

one buffalo and 716 he makes money just from being associated with the bills/Sabres you don't think he had that idea before buying the teams? He's a genius when it comes to making money. Point is he lied when he said he wasn't here to make money because he IS. He knew he was gunna set it up to make a lot of money from areas that technically aren't from the teams themselves (716, one buffalo clothing and beer and parking etc). I'm not saying that he's a bad person for making money all I'm saying is he hasn't been very truthful from the start and after he handled the last 2 weeks of the bills season the way he did makes me question everything about the pegulas.
 

Jim Bob

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Feb 27, 2002
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one buffalo and 716 he makes money just from being associated with the bills/Sabres you don't think he had that idea before buying the teams? He's a genius when it comes to making money. Point is he lied when he said he wasn't here to make money because he IS. He knew he was gunna set it up to make a lot of money from areas that technically aren't from the teams themselves (716, one buffalo clothing and beer and parking etc). I'm not saying that he's a bad person for making money all I'm saying is he hasn't been very truthful from the start and after he handled the last 2 weeks of the bills season the way he did makes me question everything about the pegulas.

He didn't lie.

He said that winning would come before profits. Show me an example where he didn't spend money to try and win and said it was a budgetary call.

It happened all the time under previous ownership, including Golisano. It hasn't happened once under Pegula.
 

Lindy Puff

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He didn't lie.

He said that winning would come before profits. Show me an example where he didn't spend money to try and win and said it was a budgetary call.

It happened all the time under previous ownership, including Golisano. It hasn't happened once under Pegula.

He's doing it behind closed doors. Like I said him and Kim are the bills Co general managers so I'm sure he's/she effected us from winning when he's/she's not letting the real GM do the job himself. Not saying about spending but he/ she could be forcing whaley not to trade or trade for someone because they don't see eye to eye. Whaley is just a puppet to do what the pegulas and Russ Brandon wants.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,200
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Rochester, NY
He's doing it behind closed doors. Like I said him and Kim are the bills Co general managers so I'm sure he's/she effected us from winning when he's/she's not letting the real GM do the job himself. Not saying about spending but he/ she could be forcing whaley not to trade or trade for someone because they don't see eye to eye. Whaley is just a puppet to do what the pegulas and Russ Brandon wants.

That has absolutely nothing to do with your prior take that they lied and are basically stealing money from fans.

It absolutely appears to be the case that Terry & Kim are way too involved in at least the football ops of the Bills and perhaps the hockey ops of the Sabres.

But, that can happen when you get highly engaged fans that buy the team.

If you want to critique the Pegulas with regards to the on the field/ice results and at least the appearance that they meddle too much in stuff that is outside their area of expertise, that is fair game to me.

But, to say that Terry lied when he said winning would come before profits isn't correct, IMO.

If you think people shouldn't support the teams until they win more, that's your prerogative.

Personally, the only team that I have stopped spending any money on is with the Washington Racial Slurs because Dan Snyder won't rename the team.

Once the team has a new name, then I will start buying merch again. But, that is a very special circumstance.
 

Lindy Puff

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That has absolutely nothing to do with your prior take that they lied and are basically stealing money from fans.

It absolutely appears to be the case that Terry & Kim are way too involved in at least the football ops of the Bills and perhaps the hockey ops of the Sabres.

But, that can happen when you get highly engaged fans that buy the team.

If you want to critique the Pegulas with regards to the on the field/ice results and at least the appearance that they meddle too much in stuff that is outside their area of expertise, that is fair game to me.

But, to say that Terry lied when he said winning would come before profits isn't correct, IMO.

If you think people shouldn't support the teams until they win more, that's your prerogative.

Personally, the only team that I have stopped spending any money on is with the Washington Racial Slurs because Dan Snyder won't rename the team.

Once the team has a new name, then I will start buying merch again. But, that is a very special circumstance.

It's obviously just my opinion ( just like I have no problem with them being the redskins). But my point was the direction of our franchises are not in the right direction at all and it starts with the owners. We're still trying to win games and it's been 5 years.
 

Jim Bob

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Feb 27, 2002
56,200
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Rochester, NY
It's obviously just my opinion ( just like I have no problem with them being the redskins). But my point was the direction of our franchises are not in the right direction at all and it starts with the owners.

The on field/ice results haven't been there.

But, it isn't because the Pegulas are prioritizing profits over winning. And in fact, there are plenty of examples of them spending money to try and win, but spending it poorly and it backfiring.

The Ville Leino/Christian Ehrhoff UFA spending spree is exhibit A of the winning > profits approach not really working as planned.

The Pegulas need to improve when it comes to the sport side of being pro sports owners.

But, I do believe that WNY is better off in general with the Pegulas owning both teams. First and foremost, there is no more talk of either team leaving Buffalo. That is huge. Second, all the money they've spent to build up canalside is awesome.

Every owner wants to win and make money. Not every owner would choose winning over making money. I do believe that the Pegulas do have those priorities in the right order.

Now they need to learn to just hire really good people to run the football and hockey ops and then back away and let them do their jobs without undo influence from people who aren't SMEs when it comes to putting together a winning pro sports team.
 

Lindy Puff

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The on field/ice results haven't been there.

But, it isn't because the Pegulas are prioritizing profits over winning. And in fact, there are plenty of examples of them spending money to try and win, but spending it poorly and it backfiring.

The Ville Leino/Christian Ehrhoff UFA spending spree is exhibit A of the winning > profits approach not really working as planned.

The Pegulas need to improve when it comes to the sport side of being pro sports owners.

But, I do believe that WNY is better off in general with the Pegulas owning both teams. First and foremost, there is no more talk of either team leaving Buffalo. That is huge. Second, all the money they've spent to build up canalside is awesome.

Every owner wants to win and make money. Not every owner would choose winning over making money. I do believe that the Pegulas do have those priorities in the right order.

Now they need to learn to just hire really good people to run the football and hockey ops and then back away and let them do their jobs without undo influence from people who aren't SMEs when it comes to putting together a winning pro sports team.


I agree they can be great owners and are great assets to the community how ever your example of them spending money on leino and erhroff is a prime example. It was pegulas idea to go after erhroff... that contract if we didn't have the option to buy him out he would be messing up our cap for another 5 years.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,200
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Rochester, NY
I agree they can be great owners and are great assets to the community how ever your example of them spending money on leino and erhroff is a prime example. It was pegulas idea to go after erhroff... that contract if we didn't have the option to buy him out he would be messing up our cap for another 5 years.

Yeah, that was the point I was making.

You tried to make the point that they were ripping fans off and were using the increase in net worth as the data to prove your point.

I completely disagree with that premise.

Now if you are just saying that they haven't won anything as owners and it would be nice if they figured out how to fix that, I think everyone, including myself, would agree with you.

Everyone wants the teams to win. Including the Pegulas, themselves.

Now we just have to sit back and hope that they can figure it out.
 

brian_griffin

"Eric Cartman?"
May 10, 2007
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proof from the net worth. Google terry pegula net worth. After that google terry pegulas net worth 2012. That proves the money situation. I don't have proof with lafantaine but now with a number of coaches or people from management stepping away randomly wanting nothing to do with the bills or Sabres it makes sense(lafantaine, Anthony Lynn, and possibly Doug marone). No good head coach is gunna join a manegment team that consits of 4 people (Whaley or Murray, Russ brandon, Kim and terry pegula) out of the 4 only one knows football and it's the guy that has no say that was left roasting at the press conference (Whaley). Russ Brandon has been running the team from behind closed doors for two decades. He makes decisions for the bills team including hiring Rex Ryan and other football personel yet never gets on the hot seat while everyone calls for the GMS head. Pegula and Russ Brandon are money hungry! They have the same mindset that's why he's the president now of the Sabres and the Rochester Americans. Just watch the 40 min video on buffalobills.com of whaleys press conference. That press conference told me a lot about what's going on not only with the bills but a lot of it mirrored what's going on with the Sabres also.

Perhaps tinfoil hat is interfering with grammar, spelling, and sentence construction.
 

Lindy Puff

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Yeah, that was the point I was making.

You tried to make the point that they were ripping fans off and were using the increase in net worth as the data to prove your point.

I completely disagree with that premise.

Now if you are just saying that they haven't won anything as owners and it would be nice if they figured out how to fix that, I think everyone, including myself, would agree with you.

Everyone wants the teams to win. Including the Pegulas, themselves.

Now we just have to sit back and hope that they can figure it out.

im not trying to get anyone to agree with me I was just stating how I felt and the feeling started during the whaley press conference I started thinking about everything that's went on the past 5 years with pegula dropping the ball and meddlling in when he shouldn't. Then I looked up his net worth at seen that. It wasn't my main argument if anything I should have said that last but I was just stating that he's making a lot of money still contradicting what he previously said. The jerseys and ticket ban is more of if no ones going to the games then pegula will have no choice but to change things because he would potentially lose money. I truly think it's Russ brandon and with pegula making him the president of everything because he has a track record of making money scares the **** outta me and the more this goes on with no results the more people will talk like this about pegula. So it's up to pegula to do the right things and get us back on track. Manegment is everything definitely in the NFL.
 

vcv

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im not trying to get anyone to agree with me I was just stating how I felt and the feeling started during the whaley press conference I started thinking about everything that's went on the past 5 years with pegula dropping the ball and meddlling in when he shouldn't. Then I looked up his net worth at seen that. It wasn't my main argument if anything I should have said that last but I was just stating that he's making a lot of money still contradicting what he previously said. The jerseys and ticket ban is more of if no ones going to the games then pegula will have no choice but to change things because he would potentially lose money. I truly think it's Russ brandon and with pegula making him the president of everything because he has a track record of making money scares the **** outta me and the more this goes on with no results the more people will talk like this about pegula. So it's up to pegula to do the right things and get us back on track. Manegment is everything definitely in the NFL.
please stop. You are putting no thought into your posts and are making completely illogical and incorrect assertions.
 
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Pegula may not be the dream owner many thought he'd be, but there's no question he isn't afraid to spend his own money to win. At least what he thinks would win.
 

brian_griffin

"Eric Cartman?"
May 10, 2007
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@LindyPuff

I apologize for the ad hominen. Your prickish (look it up in webster's) PM has earned a longer response.

You are entitled to your opinion, regardless of where your basis lies in the continuum between entirely logic/reasoning-based or entirely emotion/sentiment-based. However, I feel your views fail to consider the following:

Regarding Pegulas owning for the primary motive of profit vs. winning:

1. Google searches for net worth valuations may not be accurate. Personally, I put little credence in them. But I will, for discussion's sake, grant both: (a) Pegulas have had a net worth increase, and (b) that it's on the order of $1B.

2. I seem to recall, when Pegula was originally revealed to be in negotations to buy the Sabres, his gas and oil net worth was $4.7B before divesting most of those businesses, in which case one might argue his alleged recent increase in net worth is a mere recoup of the capital he invested in the sports teams, etc., but we will ignore that possibility as it's not an argument you've made.

3. As noted by Jim Bob and makeitburn, it is not logical the alleged net worth increase is attributable solely to Buffalo fan spending. During his tenure, the combined ticket seats sold for both franchises home games is more than 5 million but less than 6 million. Not all those ticket sales were to Buffalo fans, but we will assume they were, as it helps your argument. We will also assume that the increase in net worth is due to an increase in cash flow (you're implying that). One way to value businesses (for purpose of sale), in particular businesses with limited capital manufacturing assets like plant, property, and equipment, is via a multiplier of cash flow. I will use 7x as an arbitray multiplier. In other words, for every $1 in cash flow your business generates, I will pay you $7 for it, because I am effectively leveraging a 14-15% "return" on my investment (not truly return, because it's cash flow, not profit). Attributing either all or majority of that $1B net worth change to increase in cash flow (i.e., fan spending), and dividing by 7 yields ~$145M increase in cash flow. Dividing that by 5-6 million total tickets yields a per-ticket spend increase of $25 for each and every ticket sold for each and every game since Pegula became owner. We will ignore >50% of tickets during that timeframe were season tickets, theoretically requring each Sabres STH to spend $1000 per seat for a full season in tickets, Pegula's share of concessions, parking, team merchandise, etc. For the Bills that's $200 per seat for a full season. I did that math in my head in 1 minute, took me several minutes to type it clearly.

4. As Jim Bob and makeitburn similarly noted, you apparently ignore the possibility Pegula's net worth increase is from activities less directly related to the on-ice / on-field performance management of the two teams.

one buffalo and 716 he makes money just from being associated with the bills/Sabres you don't think he had that idea before buying the teams? He's a genius when it comes to making money. Point is he lied when he said he wasn't here to make money because he IS. He knew he was gunna set it up to make a lot of money from areas that technically aren't from the teams themselves (716, one buffalo clothing and beer and parking etc). I'm not saying that he's a bad person for making money all I'm saying is he hasn't been very truthful from the start and after he handled the last 2 weeks of the bills season the way he did makes me question everything about the pegulas.

5. You create a logical inconsistency, inferring the only way for him to be a succesful owner (either by your personal definition, or via having winning teams, or whatever overlap is between those criteria) is to not make money. That's a non sequitir. Winning and profit are neither mutually exclusive, nor diametrically opposed.

6. I work where I work because I enjoy the work content, the people, the conditions, the company, the challenge. It was my lowest paying job offer. Over the years, I have received, and continue to receive, anectdotal information I am underpaid relative to my potential employment at a different company. So in that regard I am not working for the money, but I assure you I am well-compensated relative to the majority of Americans. OTOH, I am not well off enough to retire, so in that regard I am working for the money. Am I lying? Is it a paradox??? I assure you my head is not exploding.

7. Moreover, you apparently miss the obvious context that, if purely motivated by profit, Pegula would have chosen alternative investments.

8. Additionally, Pegula overpaid when he bought the Bills. It's generally acknowledge he overpaid by a couple hundred million / couple tens of percent to ensure he'd have the winning bid.

Regarding Pegulas influence on day-to-day operations / usurping authority:

He's doing it behind closed doors. Like I said him and Kim are the bills Co general managers so I'm sure he's/she effected us from winning when he's/she's not letting the real GM do the job himself. Not saying about spending but he/ she could be forcing whaley not to trade or trade for someone because they don't see eye to eye. Whaley is just a puppet to do what the pegulas and Russ Brandon wants.

9. No business, even not-for-profits, are run wholy transparently to the public, in particular for personnel decisions.

10. Your trade reference is weak. There are very few NFL trades, period.

11. Your blame on Pegulas (with or without a belief they are neutering Whaley) ignores the possibility Whaley is ineffective.

You beliefs may have merit, but I do not believe for the reasons you cite.
We'll agree to disagree.
 
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