Bryan Murray deserve so much more credit

[Stylizer1]

A friend egg sandwich with cheese is better and different than a grilled cheese or a fried egg sandwich.

You're wrong. I win.

 

[bert]

Murray also inherited an elite team as Mukler did - Muckler managed to win with his and take it further, Murray had his explode in his face 40 games into his GM job.

When we made the first finals the majority of pundits picked us to win the Cup and the year Murray took over a ton of pundits predicted we’d be elite again, Murray didn’t manage his elite team well or build a winner. His record was underachievement at first and then Ottawa was just a gong show from that point on.

Murray did not inherit an elite team. Period.

 

[coladin]

I liked Murray, but his level of credit is , in my view , sufficient. Good guy, average GM.

 

[MatchesMalone]

the fact that you are saying "these people" discredits their argument and makes you out to be right regardless of what the argument is. I take issue with people who use emotions to validate any discussion because merely disagreeing with them evokes a perceived attack.

Too many people nowadays are confrontational without merit because they think they are being challenged when in reality its the beginning of a conversation where there are different opinions.

I honestly don't take sports discussions seriously. Grilled cheese isn't better or worse than a fried egg sandwich. They are just different.

Ok. What I'm saying is if someone is trying to have a respectful conversation/debate, fine, but if someone is trolling and making personal attacks, why engage?

 

[Stylizer1]

Ok. What I'm saying is if someone is trying to have a respectful conversation/debate, fine, but if someone is trolling and making personal attacks, why engage?

Understood. It just seems like the most "intelligent" posters here tend to be the ones who start with the insults and run to a mod to get people infracted when they can't handle people not withering to their perfect answer.

 

[MatchesMalone]

The thing is, Murray's draft record was just so damn impressive for his first four drafts with Ottawa (2008, '09, '10, '11) that I was willing to deal with some of the questionable trades. But then it was suddenly so bad for his last three ('12, '13, '14). 2015 doesn't count because Dorion was already fully in charge of the draft for that one.

Anyone have a reasonable theory on this? I'm stumped. The scouting staff was basically the same throughout. No way one guy (Anders Forsberg) could have made that much of a difference...

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The thing is, Murray's draft record was just so damn impressive for his first four drafts with Ottawa (2008, '09, '10, '11) that I was willing to deal with some of the questionable trades. But then it was suddenly so bad for his last three ('12, '13, '14). 2015 doesn't count because Dorion was already fully in charge of the draft for that one.

Anyone have a reasonable theory on this? I'm stumped. The scouting staff was basically the same throughout. No way one guy (Anders Forsberg) could have made that much of a difference...

2012 was a weak draft. I would have like Hertl but after Ceci other than him its pretty meh. No 2nd round pick. 2 3rds Took a goalie (voodoo) and Jerrod Maidens (concussion) leaving Gostisbehere and Parayko, probably could have hit on Wikstrand in the 7th which would have made a difference .. On Driedger ; According to Senators director of player personnel Pierre Dorion, the Senators are "confident that this goalie will turn out to be a good goalie down the road.". Maidens projected to be a first, suffered a concussion that ended his career early. Definitely missed on Brassard (G), Boyle, and Baillargeron.

2013 the Lazar draft... Lots of people wanted Mantha; but Lazar looked like we was going to be a player ... and a high character guy. Lots of people were wrong on him. Again no 2nd round pick but there are not too many players taken in that round that did much. Took Hogberg in the 3rd. He's still here and current #1 in Belleville.
Tobias Lindberg in the 3rd a big part in the Phaneuf trade ended up back in Belleville last year. Nick Paul and Ben Harpur in the 4th , which is certainly not terrible for 4th round picks.

2014 No first ( Bobby Ryan) .. Very much a dud draft. Take your pick between Andreas Englund (2nd) or Francis Perron (7th) as the top Senator player coming out of that draft. Would have been nice to have the 20/20 to pick Brayden Point over Miles Gendron in the 3rd. Pierre Dorion on Englund “For us, we feel like we left this draft with a first round pick. I’ve been scouting for 20 years, I don’t think we could bring in a higher character person into our organization.” Sens assistant general manager Pierre Dorion felt he was ranked much lower than his value.

PD definitely had some influence in all these drafts as well.

You can see a pattern of tending towards the higher floor (safer) pick over the higher ceiling (more perceived risk) pick. Maidens definitely sticks out as an exception. No 2nd round picks in 2012 and 2013 and no 1st in 2014 and so that hurts the overall success.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Better than anything I was able to come up with, but I still don't feel satisfied.

You're definitely right, more picks overall and more first and second rounders in those early drafts... but in 2010 they had no picks until the third round and still came up with Stone and Marcus Sorensen (I still find it hilarious that he's suddenly a full-time NHL player now apparently).

In 2011 they found Pageau in the fourth and Dzingel in the seventh. Hoffman fifth round in 2009. Zach Smith third in 2009. And then some fringe players beyond that.

But from 2012-2014 only one full-time NHL player, and essentially nothing for even fringe/call-up types.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Gary Friggin’ Roberts; the man we needed.

Tyler Arnason; the man we got.

Muckler was soul crushing year after year with is inability to go and get the players we needed at the TDL to put us over the hump.

While there may have been some debate over what player we needed to get each time, there wasn’t much debate on the idea that Muckler was guaranteed not only to not get a guy we needed, but would give up assets to bring in a guy we absolutely did not need, or who flat out sucked.

Just one of those years going all in, like getting Roberts when he was available to us, would have been nice, and so worth it.

Murray wasn’t great or anything, and his coaching carousel was terrible, but no one was quite as outright disappointing as Muckler was.

I agree with Coladin, I think GMBM is getting the respect he deserves from Sens fans. He has done better work with other franchises as a GM, but was a fantastic coach for us. I figure that dealing with EM is part of the GMs job in Ottawa, and PD right now is having to do the same with far less NHL stature and experience, and so will the next GM until the crazy owner has moved on.

No one was stopping EMs off-the-cuff outdoor game rant, which is the moment the fan base turned on him for good.

In my opinion of course.

 

[Stylizer1]

Gary Friggin’ Roberts; the man we needed.

Tyler Arnason; the man we got.

Muckler was soul crushing year after year with is inability to go and get the players we needed at the TDL to put us over the hump.

While there may have been some debate over what player we needed to get each time, there wasn’t much debate on the idea that Muckler was guaranteed not only to not get a guy we needed, but would give up assets to bring in a guy we absolutely did not need, or who flat out sucked.

Just one of those years going all in, like getting Roberts when he was available to us, would have been nice, and so worth it.

Murray wasn’t great or anything, and his coaching carousel was terrible, but no one was quite as outright disappointing as Muckler was.

I agree with Coladin, I think GMBM is getting the respect he deserves from Sens fans. He has done better work with other franchises as a GM, but was a fantastic coach for us. I figure that dealing with EM is part of the GMs job in Ottawa, and PD right now is having to do the same with far less NHL stature and experience, and so will the next GM until the crazy owner has moved on.

No one was stopping EMs off-the-cuff outdoor game rant, which is the moment the fan base turned on him for good.

In my opinion of course.

In all of Mucklers drafts who should he have picked instead?

 

[MatchesMalone]

In all of Mucklers drafts who should he have picked instead?

Can't you just look for yourself?

 

[Stylizer1]

Can't you just look for yourself?

No. I would like to entertain other opinions on the matter.

 

[Tuna99]

Better than anything I was able to come up with, but I still don't feel satisfied.

You're definitely right, more picks overall and more first and second rounders in those early drafts... but in 2010 they had no picks until the third round and still came up with Stone and Marcus Sorensen (I still find it hilarious that he's suddenly a full-time NHL player now apparently).

In 2011 they found Pageau in the fourth and Dzingel in the seventh. Hoffman fifth round in 2009. Zach Smith third in 2009. And then some fringe players beyond that.

But from 2012-2014 only one full-time NHL player, and essentially nothing for even fringe/call-up types.

Funny thing about this is Murray’s 1st big deadline acquisition was Cory stillman and Mike Commodore - Commodore back talked Murray on his way out the door but there was also tension with Murray durin g the season. Stillman was just unhappy in a horrid situation - the big trade gets made and one player on the way out says the GM is an idiot, didn’t really work out well for Murray’s imagine anyways

 

[Micklebot]

Nick Paul and Ben Harpur in the 4th , which is certainly not terrible for 4th round picks

Might want to take a look at that draft again, Paul was a stars pick who we aqired in the spezza trade, Lindberg was the other pick in the 4th.

Otherwise i agree with your assesment on those draft years.

 

[Tuna99]

Mucklet vs Murray would be defined as:

Muckler had stability and a steady franchise

Murray had almost immediate upheaval and chaos and it seemed to never stop.

When Bob Gainey went to Montreal as GM it was the lowest time in modern franchise history, he changed almost all of that overnight. The team settled down; the fans settled down and even though they weren’t winning every year like they wanted he brought stability and leadership.

I don’t think this is taken into consideration when evaluating these two GMs. Muckler brought confidence, Murray brought chaos

 

[Stylizer1]

The title of the thread is controversial.

 

[Stylizer1]

Mucklet vs Murray would be defined as:

Muckler had stability and a steady franchise

Murray had almost immediate upheaval and chaos and it seemed to never stop.

When Bob Gainey went to Montreal as GM it was the lowest time in modern franchise history, he changed almost all of that overnight. The team settled down; the fans settled down and even though they weren’t winning every year like they wanted he brought stability and leadership.

I don’t think this is taken into consideration when evaluating these two GMs. Muckler brought confidence, Murray brought chaos

Murray brought confidence behind the bench. If find it odd that every team he was apart of he left when the were on the cusp.
Muckler bringing in Hasek was the move that had the most effect on the team. That team looked to destroy everyone.

 

[Ice-Tray]

the team was good, but the lockout, and Hasek himself prevented what could have been a great chance at success.

Muckler was a dud. He didn’t really exude confidence or swagger in my opinion. He failed deadline after deadline to bring in the piece that the team needed, and in the end I had zero confidence in any moves he made. He would kick us in the nuts at the deadline, and then the leafs would kick us in the nuts again in the playoffs. The worst bit was that everyone from fans to pundits to opposing teams knew exactly what we needed to add year after year...

That doesn’t even get into the drafting. We now expect to pick up good players, and at the very least a bunch of NHL players all through the rounds, before that we were lucky to get any players that could crack an NHL line up.

Haha, look at me all ranty!

 

[stempniaksen]

Muckler was brought in to be the "finisher" and get the team over the hump and his deadlines moves included getting (a way past his prime) Peter Bondra, Tyler Arnason, Lawrence Nycholat and Oleg Saprykin. He unequivocally failed as a GM in his time here, given the expectations and the team he inherited from Marshall Johnston.

 

[Stylizer1]

Muckler was brought in to be the "finisher" and get the team over the hump and his deadlines moves included getting (a way past his prime) Peter Bondra, Tyler Arnason, Lawrence Nycholat and Oleg Saprykin. He unequivocally failed as a GM in his time here, given the expectations and the team he inherited from Marshall Johnston.

He also had to deal with rising salaries and a salary cap. He would have had to give up more assets to bring in better player at the deadline. It was a new time for the league and it took time to get used to it. Murray should have remained the coach and Hasek should have been brought back regardless of what anyone thought.