Bryan Murray deserve so much more credit

[Stylizer1]

To be fair, I thought Burke was a great GM too. Murray played a role in building the eventual Red Wing dynasty, led Florida to a Final, and built most of that Ducks Cup team, but he could never quite finish one himself.

As much as that Ducks team was mostly Murray's, Burke super-charged the defense, adding their two best players in Niedermayer and Pronger, as well as Beauchemin, and Selanne up front. Granted, he had a ton of cap space and good assets to work with, but those moves were difference-makers and pretty genius stuff.

But yeah, as you said, Murray was a great person and great hockey mind, and I gotta imagine he'll be in the HHOF someday.

Like you said he could never quite finish one himself. If someone is a hater for pointing that out or his success as the GM of Ottawa then we can't have a realistic conversation.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Uh oh. He's got my scent now, and he's creepin'.

 

[Tuna99]

One thing that I didn’t like about Murray’s tenure is the media seemed to adore him and really plastered over a lot of bad hockey or PR moves to defend him and it seemed to cause resentment between the fans and the media / management.

Murray seemed to be a good guy, but if he made bad moves the media has to critique him and not lay all the blame on the other character. This started with the firing of Muckler who was demonized for some stupid reason and it carried through to the end, Murray seemed to be Teflon when everything around him was crumbling - the coaches, the star players all wanted out, fan interest dwindling, the summers of Heatley, Alfie and Spezza, Emery, The extremely poor signings, even worse trades of elite talent, the rebuild that completely fell flat.

The media has found a better balance maybe because Dorion isn’t endearing and fan outraged peaked, but Murray was at the center of it all and the blame was always put at the feet of other people. To even critique Murray during his tenure was tantamount to betrayal of the Sens brand

 

[BonkTastic]

This started with the firing of Muckler who was demonized for some stupid reason and it carried through to the end

IMO, Muckler was bad enough at his job that he can be criticized on his own merit without having to bring anything Murray did into the mix.

 

[Tuna99]

IMO, Muckler was bad enough at his job that he can be criticized on his own merit without having to bring anything Murray did into the mix.

I’ll never understand this reasoning as to why Muckler was bad. Ottawa has its best years under him, best teams, best coach, best contracts and best crowds.

And his draft record for a top team isn’t even that bad which is his main criticism. And we stood up to poo-Jeans and we see what has happened when a GM does not and a lot of Murray’s moves were blamed on Poo-jeans (ie Kovalev, the panic Ryan trade, Alfie) so Murray always has an out (it was the coach, it was the selfish player, it was the owner) whereas Muckler took full responsibility for everything and the team was the best it’s ever been.

Muckler leaves and everything that was built left with him (solid coaching, full stadium, loyal players, loyal alumni, excellent team)

But to each his own, you just look at the full picture and I can’t even believe anyone thinks Murray did a better job in any season then Muckler did in his worst season

 

[bert]

Like you said he could never quite finish one himself. If someone is a hater for pointing that out or his success as the GM of Ottawa then we can't have a realistic conversation.

Too bad he still wasnt in Anaheim when Scott Niedermayer decided he would only play with his brother who was aquired by Bryan Murray... Twice.

 

[bert]

I’ll never understand this reasoning as to why Muckler was bad. Ottawa has its best years under him, best teams, best coach, best contracts and best crowds.

And his draft record for a top team isn’t even that bad which is his main criticism. And we stood up to poo-Jeans and we see what has happened when a GM does not and a lot of Murray’s moves were blamed on Poo-jeans (ie Kovalev, the panic Ryan trade, Alfie) so Murray always has an out (it was the coach, it was the selfish player, it was the owner) whereas Muckler took full responsibility for everything and the team was the best it’s ever been.

Muckler leaves and everything that was built left with him (solid coaching, full stadium, loyal players, loyal alumni, excellent team)

But to each his own, you just look at the full picture and I can’t even believe anyone thinks Murray did a better job in any season then Muckler did in his worst season

Muckler acquired 0 elite talent, he did absolutely nothing to build those teams. That was previous management. He handled the cap crunch horribly. He destroyed the depth alienated the slovaks and was the demise of the entire organization. Its funny the only good coach he hired was murray. If you actually dont understand why people dont like muckler maybe just go do some research on when players were aquired and when they were traded. Wont take long, hockey db has a history of all draft picks, trades and signings.

His drafting was hands down the worst it has ever been under any GM in sens history and its not close.

 

[bert]

This started with the firing of Muckler who was demonized for some stupid reason

Under Muckler

Out: Hossa, Chara, Havlat, Rachunek, 1st round pick.

In: Heatley, Pothier, Devries, Varada

Goes off the board and Drafts Brian Lee 9th overall directly before Bourdon, Kopitar and Staal were picked.

If you think that is a stupid reason to not agree with his work then we arent on the same page.

 

[Sens]

I’ll never understand this reasoning as to why Muckler was bad. Ottawa has its best years under him, best teams, best coach, best contracts and best crowds.

And his draft record for a top team isn’t even that bad which is his main criticism. And we stood up to poo-Jeans and we see what has happened when a GM does not and a lot of Murray’s moves were blamed on Poo-jeans (ie Kovalev, the panic Ryan trade, Alfie) so Murray always has an out (it was the coach, it was the selfish player, it was the owner) whereas Muckler took full responsibility for everything and the team was the best it’s ever been.

Muckler leaves and everything that was built left with him (solid coaching, full stadium, loyal players, loyal alumni, excellent team)

But to each his own, you just look at the full picture and I can’t even believe anyone thinks Murray did a better job in any season then Muckler did in his worst season

I agree with this 100%
I’m a Mucklee fan... he was awesome

 

[Sens]

Muckler acquired 0 elite talent

How many 50G scorers did the Sens have

Also

Hasek (it’s not mucks fault there was a lockout and then Olympics the next year)

Also

I’d probably call Bryan Murray an elite coach

 

[Stylizer1]

Muckler was brought on to win the cup. That is it. He got us to the finals and was fired. Murray obviously convinced Melnyk to let him take over and each season our team was dismantled bit by bit. We got back to being average before complete tearing down the franchise to nothing. Runs aside, this has been a terribly run organisation for the last 8 years.

The way teams were built pre cap era was different than after.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Muckler acquired 0 elite talent, he did absolutely nothing to build those teams. That was previous management. He handled the cap crunch horribly. He destroyed the depth alienated the slovaks and was the demise of the entire organization. Its funny the only good coach he hired was murray. If you actually dont understand why people dont like muckler maybe just go do some research on when players were aquired and when they were traded. Wont take long, hockey db has a history of all draft picks, trades and signings.

His drafting was hands down the worst it has ever been under any GM in sens history and its not close.

Check out prosportstransactions too. Muckler was GM from June 2002 - June 2007. The thing is Muckler just didn't really do... anything. The previous GMs had built an excellent team and he just kinda sat on it. The draft record really was pretty bad. I've seen worse, but Muckler's wasn't pretty. His best moves were probably the Hasek signing and hiring Bryan Murray as coach.

Hockey Transactions Search Results

 

[Tuna99]

Check out prosportstransactions too. Muckler was GM from June 2002 - June 2007. The thing is Muckler just didn't really do... anything. The previous GMs had built an excellent team and he just kinda sat on it. The draft record really was pretty bad. I've seen worse, but Muckler's wasn't pretty. His best moves were probably the Hasek signing and hiring Bryan Murray as coach.

Hockey Transactions Search Results

Muckler had the best line in hockey, the best skating team in hockey, the best goalie, the best defence, an elite coach and a full stadium.

Murray’s drafting of Cowen is often overlooked, he basically had the same stats as Brian Lee and both drafted #9. Murray’s misses in the 2011 rebuild draft were horrible. His 2012-2014 drafts were very bad essentially only producing Ceci who is a bad NHL player - like I said all glossed over because he was good with the media.

I’m not anti Murray, I don’t think he was a good GM and the record shows that. But to say he was better then Muckler is stupid.

Drafting EK was Murray’s saving grace. He lived off of that for his entire GM run - without EK Murray would have been sunk in Ottawa. Credit where credit is due, but that was by far his best move, after that I can’t really think of anything great he did to deserve the praise he gets

Check out prosportstransactions too. Muckler was GM from June 2002 - June 2007. The thing is Muckler just didn't really do... anything. The previous GMs had built an excellent team and he just kinda sat on it. The draft record really was pretty bad. I've seen worse, but Muckler's wasn't pretty. His best moves were probably the Hasek signing and hiring Bryan Murray as coach.

Hockey Transactions Search Results

Muckler had the best line in hockey, the best skating team in hockeyC the best goalie, the best defence, an elite coach and a full stadium.

Murray’s drafting of Cowen is often overlooked, he basically had the Ceci same stats as Brian Lee and both drafted #9. Murray’s misses in the 2011 rebuild draft were horrible. His 2012-2014 drafts were very bad essentially only producing Ceci who is a bad NHL player - like I said all glossed over because he was good with the media.

I’m not anti Murray, I don’t think he was a good GM and the record shows that. But to say he was better then Muckler is stupid.

Drafting EK was Murray’s saving grace. He lived off of that for his entire GM run - without EK Murray would have been sunk in Ottawa. Credit where credit is due, but that was by far his best move, after that I can’t really think of anything great he did to deserve the praise he gets

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

I’m not anti Murray, I don’t think he was a good GM and the record shows that. But to say he was better then Muckler is stupid.

Actually, the opposite. Youve done nothing to refute any of the theses put forth by people youre arguing with. You have your opinion but all your proof that you offer is already refuted by the posts you respond to.

To say that Muckler was anything more than a disastrous GM for Ottawa... well, thats stupid.

 

[bert]

Muckler had the best line in hockey, the best skating team in hockey, the best goalie, the best defence, an elite coach and a full stadium.

Murray’s drafting of Cowen is often overlooked, he basically had the same stats as Brian Lee and both drafted #9. Murray’s misses in the 2011 rebuild draft were horrible. His 2012-2014 drafts were very bad essentially only producing Ceci who is a bad NHL player - like I said all glossed over because he was good with the media.

I’m not anti Murray, I don’t think he was a good GM and the record shows that. But to say he was better then Muckler is stupid.

Drafting EK was Murray’s saving grace. He lived off of that for his entire GM run - without EK Murray would have been sunk in Ottawa. Credit where credit is due, but that was by far his best move, after that I can’t really think of anything great he did to deserve the praise he gets



Muckler had the best line in hockey, the best skating team in hockeyC the best goalie, the best defence, an elite coach and a full stadium.

Murray’s drafting of Cowen is often overlooked, he basically had the Ceci same stats as Brian Lee and both drafted #9. Murray’s misses in the 2011 rebuild draft were horrible. His 2012-2014 drafts were very bad essentially only producing Ceci who is a bad NHL player - like I said all glossed over because he was good with the media.

I’m not anti Murray, I don’t think he was a good GM and the record shows that. But to say he was better then Muckler is stupid.

Drafting EK was Murray’s saving grace. He lived off of that for his entire GM run - without EK Murray would have been sunk in Ottawa. Credit where credit is due, but that was by far his best move, after that I can’t really think of anything great he did to deserve the praise he gets

I guess you are just going to flat out ignore everything people are posting? Muckler didnt aquire any of the elite players on those teams he didnt have anything to do with it....

No the Cowen and Lee draft picks arent the same at all if you look at their draft pedigree. Cowen was seen as a top 5 pick until his injury Lee was rated to go in the late first early second round. There were no Kopitars or Staals available when Cowen was picked. Neither were good selections but they arent similar at all outside of the fact they were poor picks.

Murray drafted.

Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman, Dzingel, Ceci, Pageau, Zibanejad, Claesson, Lehner, Silfverberg, Smith, Wideman, Prince, Wiercioch, Sorenson, Grant, Mccormick, Borowiecki, Noesen.

All guys that played NHL games.

He traded for

Anderson, Turris and Methot

But you cant remember any of these aquisitions outside of Karlsson?...

Yeah he had some misses too on trades but he did a WAY better job than Muckler. He had to build the team up from scratch after Muckler did absolutely nothing to stock the cupboards with an elite team that was handed to him.

Muckler Drafted these guys that played NHL games.

Lee, Bass, Greening, Gryba, Condra, Obrien, Daugevins and Foligno.

 

[bert]

How many 50G scorers did the Sens have

Also

Hasek (it’s not mucks fault there was a lockout and then Olympics the next year)

Also

I’d probably call Bryan Murray an elite coach

Do you think Heatley is better than Hossa? Hossa scored 44 goals on a line with Radek Bonk and Magnus Arvidson... You dont think he is getting there in a more wide open NHL with Alfie and Spezza on his line?

 

[Sens]

The best thing Muckler did was give this team swagger... before the Muckler hiring this club had no confidence

He convinced Daniel Alfredsson to give up some of his pay checkup so he could trade for Brian Smolinski at the trade deadline while this team was going through bankruptcy

Not before his tenure nor after it has this team oozed swagger like the team’s Muckler was in charge of

It starts at the top and works is way down.

 

[MatchesMalone]

For the record, I don't deny that Murray's tenure as GM in Ottawa leaves something to be desired. His draft record was impressive, but he made some bad trades. He also made some good moves - adding Gonchar, Anderson, Turris, MacArthur. Michalek continued to be a useful player for Ottawa a few years after Heatley's career took a nosedive.

I always felt that he inherited a bad situation after Muckler's poor drafting, as well as the cap situation, which can't entirely be blamed on Muckler - although Muckler managed the first couple years of the cap very poorly.

As I've said before, Murray had some ups and downs in Ottawa, but overall the good outweighs the bad... having Ben Bishop in net wouldn't have hurt though.

 

[Sens]

Do you think Heatley is better than Hossa? Hossa scored 44 goals on a line with Radek Bonk and Magnus Arvidson... You dont think he is getting there in a more wide open NHL with Alfie and Spezza on his line?

When the cap was 39 million
Hartley was making 4.0 cap (3.5+4.5)
When Hossa got his 6.0 deal

Heatley had substantially more value then Hossa out of the lockout

 

[bert]

When the cap was 39 million
Hartley was making 4.0 cap (3.5+4.5)
When Hossa got his 6.0 deal

Heatley had substantially more value then Hossa out of the lockout

Heatley made 4.5 million on the cap and I dont agree about having more value he was coming off major knee surgery and Hossa was the sens best player by far after losing game 7 in the ECF in 2003. Hossa was considered the better player hence the higher cap hit, he was coming off back to back 80+ point seasons while playing selke level two way hockey. 1.5 million for a downgrade in a player isnt a good thing Hossa could carry his own line and play elite hockey in any situation. If the sens keep Hossa, they keep Chara and likely have a cup right now. The domino effect from the Hossa deal after signing him to a contract then dealing him back door was the single worst move Muckler made.

 

[MatchesMalone]

The best thing Muckler did was give this team swagger... before the Muckler hiring this club had no confidence

He convinced Daniel Alfredsson to give up some of his pay checkup so he could trade for Brian Smolinski at the trade deadline while this team was going through bankruptcy

Not before his tenure nor after it has this team oozed swagger like the team’s Muckler was in charge of

It starts at the top and works is way down.

This is actually an interesting take.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Heatley made 4.5 million on the cap and I dont agree about having more value he was coming off major knee surgery and Hossa was the sens best player by far after losing game 7 in the ECF in 2003. Hossa was considered teh better player hence the higher cap hit. 1.5 million for a huge downgrade in a player isnt a good thing. If the sens keep Hossa, they keep Chara and likely have a cup right now. The domino effect from the Hossa deal after signing him to a contract then dealing him back door was the single worst move Muckler made.

All true, but do you figure they could hold onto Chara and Hossa under the cap? I mean even if they could have just kept them through 2007, that Sens team with Chara and Hossa rather than Heatley and Redden would have almost certainly beat Anaheim, in my estimation.

 

[bert]

All true, but do you figure they could hold onto Chara and Hossa under the cap? I mean even if they could have just kept them through 2007, that Sens team with Chara and Hossa rather than Heatley and Redden would have almost certainly beat Anaheim, in my estimation.

Exactly. Chara left because of two things A. Hossa getting back doored and him wanting slightly more money than Redden while being the far superior payer. Muckler chose Redden. Hossa signed a deal for less than Heatley was making, the money would have balanced out.

 

[Sens]

Chara also wanted the C
So to keep Chara meant stripping Alfredsson of captaincy

 

[BatherSeason]

One thing that I didn’t like about Murray’s tenure is the media seemed to adore him and really plastered over a lot of bad hockey or PR moves to defend him and it seemed to cause resentment between the fans and the media / management.

Murray seemed to be a good guy, but if he made bad moves the media has to critique him and not lay all the blame on the other character. This started with the firing of Muckler who was demonized for some stupid reason and it carried through to the end, Murray seemed to be Teflon when everything around him was crumbling - the coaches, the star players all wanted out, fan interest dwindling, the summers of Heatley, Alfie and Spezza, Emery, The extremely poor signings, even worse trades of elite talent, the rebuild that completely fell flat.

The media has found a better balance maybe because Dorion isn’t endearing and fan outraged peaked, but Murray was at the center of it all and the blame was always put at the feet of other people. To even critique Murray during his tenure was tantamount to betrayal of the Sens brand

The media is basically exactly the same as it always was. The only reason they have suddenly begun to criticize ownership and management ever so slightly is because they have had no choice, the team has put themselves in a position where basically everyone who covers hockey is on to the poopshow in Ottawa. If the hockey media ignored the issues, Ottawa media would follow suit.