TSN: Brown will no longer be Captain

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Omni Owl

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He wouldn't have if he wasn't outplaying the other guys.



Every game but game 5 was close.

Scuderi was pure trash down the stretch and in the playoffs. Gravel was the better option but they didn't want to mess him up developmentally.

Our defense was pitiful against the Sharks, and no, that series wasn't even close. Every time I turned the game on the Sharks had just scored. We were absolutely dominated in every way.
 

YP44

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Scuderi was pure trash down the stretch and in the playoffs. Gravel was the better option but they didn't want to mess him up developmentally.

Our defense was pitiful against the Sharks, and no, that series wasn't even close. Every time I turned the game on the Sharks had just scored. We were absolutely dominated in every way.

If it weren't for the reign being in the playoffs I think there owuld have been a switch after game 3 to bring Gravel in..probably dressing 7 defenders
 

Raccoon Jesus

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That season, myself plus others, thought the 2012 team was trash, and cannon fodder for playoff teams. That was about late March that year too. I remember trashing that roster, till the Kings flipped that switch come round one.

So I don't get how anyone can say the 2016 team was smoke and mirrors. It was a good team that got beat, by a better team, that wanted it more. With some tweaks, the 2016/17 Kings will be a good team again. Hopefully they are healthy for the playoffs, and the top dogs perform better.

honestly speaking it's been that way since we started making the playoffs again. This team hasn't been flat out 'bad' in a long time:

2010: Lost in 6 to the Canucks, despite having an opportunity to win, just didn't have the step-on-the-throat mentality. Canucks lost to the cup champion Hawks.
2011: Kopitar-less and one-armed-Williams Kings took the Sharks to 6. Sharks lost in the WCF to the Canucks.
2012: Cup
2013: Lost in WCF to a flat-out dominant Hawks team
2014: Cup
2015: lol
2016: lost to Sharks, who are in Cup Final

We rag on the Sharks a lot, but we've had to beat them to go deep or win, and hen we didn't, they went deep.

Not a bad team, even before the Cup, honestly. Expectations just got out of whack, which is fine and expected, but some of us need to take a step back for some perspective.

Edit: oh, and those windows we thought we slammed shut? Sharks and Blues in the WCF. so for those who think we are dead, keep that in mind.
 

KingsFan7824

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Edit: oh, and those windows we thought we slammed shut? Sharks and Blues in the WCF. so for those who think we are dead, keep that in mind.

Every situation is different. St.Louis didn't lose a top 4 defensemen for nothing. Thornton and Marleau might be older and have larger cap hits than Brown, but the Sharks are still getting something from those guys.

If the Kings can figure out the defense, and get a couple young guys producing well above their cap hit, the window isn't slammed shut. When you have questions in your top 6 forwards, and your top 4 defensemen, and you have cap issues, having everything fall into place becomes a bit more uncertain.

It's not that the Kings can't win, it's that they'll need to reverse the trend of nothing they've done or tired to do really working out since June 2014.
 

Raccoon Jesus

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Every situation is different. St.Louis didn't lose a top 4 defensemen for nothing. Thornton and Marleau might be older and have larger cap hits than Brown, but the Sharks are still getting something from those guys.

If the Kings can figure out the defense, and get a couple young guys producing well above their cap hit, the window isn't slammed shut. When you have questions in your top 6 forwards, and your top 4 defensemen, and you have cap issues, having everything fall into place becomes a bit more uncertain.

It's not that the Kings can't win, it's that they'll need to reverse the trend of nothing they've done or tired to do really working out since June 2014.

No, but STL had scoring, defense, AND goalie questions--cue development of Tarasenko, Fabbri, et. al., and on D Parayko, Edmundson, and in G Allen.

Sharks had holes on D and picked up Martin, depth forwards in Ward and Donskoi, shuffled around their C and their best players played like their best players, and boom.

Edit: hell, look at the Pens, who have hung onto a core for years, and suddenly re-emerged with the Kings 2012 plan (youth blowing up, coaching change).

Does anyone think we struggle so much in that series if Doughty doesn't outright suck? Are the Sharks d-men suddenly better than him? Is Kopitar suddenly not an elite 1C? Our problems are with depth, and those two teams showed us different ways to fix a 'flawed' team and jump right back into the thick of things.

I agree that every single situation is very different and we lost assets trying to fix lost asset in Voynov, I know it's not that relatively easy. I'm just saying our situation isn't so different that we're suddenly a garbage team and the sky isn't falling. We're still competitive, but I also don't know why it's so shocking that we've come off a two-Cup peak and are fading.
 

Trolfoli

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Sure... fix the D, get a 3C that isn't Stoll/Shore/Lewis bad for offense, and re-sign Lucic or find a suitable replacement and the window is right back open. Until one of the older guys loses a step that is. Do this with the cap space to fill one of those spots.

There's also Brown/Expansion draft to complicate things.
 

tsanuri

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Sure... fix the D, get a 3C that isn't Stoll/Shore/Lewis bad for offense, and re-sign Lucic or find a suitable replacement and the window is right back open. Until one of the older guys loses a step that is. Do this with the cap space to fill one of those spots.

There's also Brown/Expansion draft to complicate things.

By what has been said re-signing Lucic is a dream at this point.
DL is trying to do the best thing for the team and give him around $6M it sounds like. But only at a 4 year term. And it sounds like he wants the 6-8 year term. I'm hopeful it could get done but just don't see it. But if he doesn't get anything better on the open market I guess he could come back.
 

KingsFan7824

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No, but STL had scoring, defense, AND goalie questions--cue development of Tarasenko, Fabbri, et. al., and on D Parayko, Edmundson, and in G Allen.

Sharks had holes on D and picked up Martin, depth forwards in Ward and Donskoi, shuffled around their C and their best players played like their best players, and boom.

Edit: hell, look at the Pens, who have hung onto a core for years, and suddenly re-emerged with the Kings 2012 plan (youth blowing up, coaching change).

Does anyone think we struggle so much in that series if Doughty doesn't outright suck? Are the Sharks d-men suddenly better than him? Is Kopitar suddenly not an elite 1C? Our problems are with depth, and those two teams showed us different ways to fix a 'flawed' team and jump right back into the thick of things.

I agree that every single situation is very different and we lost assets trying to fix lost asset in Voynov, I know it's not that relatively easy. I'm just saying our situation isn't so different that we're suddenly a garbage team and the sky isn't falling. We're still competitive, but I also don't know why it's so shocking that we've come off a two-Cup peak and are fading.

Agreed.

Shore, Dowd, Mersch, Kempe, Forbort, Gravel, a couple have to not only get the chance, but also force Sutter to keep them in the lineup. LoVerde can be the guy, it doesn't matter, just someone.

They need the next Martinez, Voynov, King, Nolan, because Mitchell, Scuderi 1.0, Regehr, they can't add those guys. That money for the veterans is now being taken up by Martinez, Muzzin, Toffoli, etc. They can keep Lucic, or get Yandle, or do whatever, they still need some young guys to outproduce their contract. They need that much more from someone else when a guy like Brown can't live up to the cap space he takes up. If that doesn't happen, there's not enough money to have the depth, unless they can find the next Stempniak type guy.
 

YP44

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By what has been said re-signing Lucic is a dream at this point.
DL is trying to do the best thing for the team and give him around $6M it sounds like. But only at a 4 year term. And it sounds like he wants the 6-8 year term. I'm hopeful it could get done but just don't see it. But if he doesn't get anything better on the open market I guess he could come back.

I think he will easily get more. I would be ok with a 6x6 but am completely fine with DL digging his heals in at 4.

Sucks we lost another 1st for a rental (at least it was a full year rental), but I still think Lucic was worth it
 

Trolfoli

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By what has been said re-signing Lucic is a dream at this point.
DL is trying to do the best thing for the team and give him around $6M it sounds like. But only at a 4 year term. And it sounds like he wants the 6-8 year term. I'm hopeful it could get done but just don't see it. But if he doesn't get anything better on the open market I guess he could come back.

Cool.. then a replacement for Lucic will be needed as well. 20G, 35A finishing 4th behind Kopitar/Carter/Toffoli, Kings will need to replace his impact on offense if he's not resigned.
 

Raccoon Jesus

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Agreed.

Shore, Dowd, Mersch, Kempe, Forbort, Gravel, a couple have to not only get the chance, but also force Sutter to keep them in the lineup. LoVerde can be the guy, it doesn't matter, just someone.

They need the next Martinez, Voynov, King, Nolan, because Mitchell, Scuderi 1.0, Regehr, they can't add those guys. That money for the veterans is now being taken up by Martinez, Muzzin, Toffoli, etc. They can keep Lucic, or get Yandle, or do whatever, they still need some young guys to outproduce their contract. They need that much more from someone else when a guy like Brown can't live up to the cap space he takes up. If that doesn't happen, there's not enough money to have the depth, unless they can find the next Stempniak type guy.

And therein lies the 'problem' as well as a normal and fair concern of the cap era. Martinez, Muzzin, Doughty ARE the vets; they need the NEXT Muzzin, Toffoli, etc. Because the teams that are going deep are typically on that structure for the last 8-10 years--elite core, cheap and/or young auxillary parts that blow up.

The GOOD news with that is look where those guys came from. Muzzin was a UFA. Martinez was a 4th rounder. King. Nolan 7th. Toffoli 2nd. And so on.

The BAD news is there are no guarantees. Dowd, Mersch, Forbort, Gravel could be the next wave of cup champions or they could be the anchors that sink the ship and everything in between.

But the uncertainty is part of what makes it so fun (and maddening, lol, but you know). I guess I'm just saying I don't see it as the sky is falling, window slammed shut, whatever. I know it's wholly unlikely that we win ANOTHER cup, but it was ALSO wholly unlikely to win one period, never mind two in three years. Temper expectations and try to enjoy hockey for what it is again.
 

BigKing

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I think he will easily get more. I would be ok with a 6x6 but am completely fine with DL digging his heals in at 4.

Sucks we lost another 1st for a rental (at least it was a full year rental), but I still think Lucic was worth it

Have to disagree with it being worth it as the Kings have now given up two 1st round picks for a total of one playoff victory the last two years on top of other assets for something like ~100 games combined from two players in Sekera and Lucic.

Both times Lombardi thought he could sign them long-term to some sort of discount but that is contingent upon the team actually doing well in the playoffs or--in Sekera's case--actually making the playoffs.

Very interesting to hear that Lucic and the Kings aren't really close after everything said during the season. Haven't listened to the Mayor's interview or whatever that I believe is the source of the Lucic discussion so I'm not sure if this is a Lucic or Lombardi decision: assuming it is the latter due to contract length being an issue since Lombardi has had no problem handing those out in the past.

If Lombardi learned some sort of lesson about long-term contracts with older, physical players then he is guilty of believing this team was better than it actually was in June of 2015 or else he doesn't make the trade for Lucic. If he is digging in at a four year contract at this point, it is an admission that his plan was wrong prior to the start of this season, IMO.

He's certainly admitted somewhat that things are not what he thought they were per that long interview at the close of the season; if they were, then you'd see DL hand Lucic the six years or whatever with no hesitation. For that reason, it is a mistake as Lombardi would certainly prefer to have kept the pick at this point along with the other assets.

I know there are many who have thrown Williams under the bus as some garbage player after Washington failed to advance, but this team still makes the playoffs this past season with Williams instead of Lucic while keeping all of the assets used for Lucic (or using them differently) and Williams leadership and intangibles. Only downside would be having his $3.5MM (could DL have brought him back for a little less?) for this upcoming season but, in lieu of not having Lucic next year, that's not actually a bad thing.

You let Williams (culture changer guy) walk for a two-year contract and basically replace him with Lucic. This was not a one-year plan but now it appears to have wound up that way. It's a huge waste. I love Lucic (although I'm not happy we got contract-year-don't-want-to-get-hurt Lucic instead of the wild animal) but the trade was questionable at the time. Exciting but questionable. I do the Sekera trade again and have no problem with that "all-in" move: even in hindsight. Lucic, however, was a questionable move and looks horrific in hindsight if he is not brought back. Hell, it could look horrific if he is brought back for too long.

Hubris was not only a detriment to this roster in 2015 but it poisoned management since June of '14. Took two bad seasons--in comparison to 2012-'14--for Lombardi to realize everything isn't okay. It is just unfortunate that so many assets have been squandered and/or questionable contract moves have been made during that time.

Still don't think this is a bad team because, c'mon now, it is sprinkled with elite-to-very good players. It's just that Lombardi has put himself in a position where he needs to make some moves but the cap is essentially tying an arm behind his back.
 

YP44

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Have to disagree with it being worth it as the Kings have now given up two 1st round picks for a total of one playoff victory the last two years on top of other assets for something like ~100 games combined from two players in Sekera and Lucic.

Both times Lombardi thought he could sign them long-term to some sort of discount but that is contingent upon the team actually doing well in the playoffs or--in Sekera's case--actually making the playoffs.

Very interesting to hear that Lucic and the Kings aren't really close after everything said during the season. Haven't listened to the Mayor's interview or whatever that I believe is the source of the Lucic discussion so I'm not sure if this is a Lucic or Lombardi decision: assuming it is the latter due to contract length being an issue since Lombardi has had no problem handing those out in the past.

If Lombardi learned some sort of lesson about long-term contracts with older, physical players then he is guilty of believing this team was better than it actually was in June of 2015 or else he doesn't make the trade for Lucic. If he is digging in at a four year contract at this point, it is an admission that his plan was wrong prior to the start of this season, IMO.

He's certainly admitted somewhat that things are not what he thought they were per that long interview at the close of the season; if they were, then you'd see DL hand Lucic the six years or whatever with no hesitation. For that reason, it is a mistake as Lombardi would certainly prefer to have kept the pick at this point along with the other assets.

I know there are many who have thrown Williams under the bus as some garbage player after Washington failed to advance, but this team still makes the playoffs this past season with Williams instead of Lucic while keeping all of the assets used for Lucic (or using them differently) and Williams leadership and intangibles. Only downside would be having his $3.5MM (could DL have brought him back for a little less?) for this upcoming season but, in lieu of not having Lucic next year, that's not actually a bad thing.

You let Williams (culture changer guy) walk for a two-year contract and basically replace him with Lucic. This was not a one-year plan but now it appears to have wound up that way. It's a huge waste. I love Lucic (although I'm not happy we got contract-year-don't-want-to-get-hurt Lucic instead of the wild animal) but the trade was questionable at the time. Exciting but questionable. I do the Sekera trade again and have no problem with that "all-in" move: even in hindsight. Lucic, however, was a questionable move and looks horrific in hindsight if he is not brought back. Hell, it could look horrific if he is brought back for too long.

Hubris was not only a detriment to this roster in 2015 but it poisoned management since June of '14. Took two bad seasons--in comparison to 2012-'14--for Lombardi to realize everything isn't okay. It is just unfortunate that so many assets have been squandered and/or questionable contract moves have been made during that time.

Still don't think this is a bad team because, c'mon now, it is sprinkled with elite-to-very good players. It's just that Lombardi has put himself in a position where he needs to make some moves but the cap is essentially tying an arm behind his back.

I think DL thought that Lucic would put LA over the top and Lucic-Kopitar-Gaborik would be a line with star power not seen in LA since Deadmarsh-Alisson-Palffy. Followed with Pearson-Carter-Toffoli when was the last time LA had that solid of a top 6 on paper? LA wasn't going to be able to keep Jones so Lucic for a 1st is a pretty fair deal. Especially as it was a full season not just a trade deadline rental.

Sekera really is unfortunate. If he does not get injured does LA make the playoffs? If Richards is not arrested is he then traded at the draft allowing cap room to re-sign Sekera? It sure sounded like LA and Sekera were close in term and $$ on a new deal but the Richards and Voynov saga's didn't allow the deal to be finalized. Cannot blame Sekera for not wanted to wait it out (Bird in the hand..).

I think we will see a little LA re-tool while still being competitive. I do not want to see prime Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Toffoli and Muzzin years wasted.

edit: lets say LA does not trade for Lucic and loses in the 1st round. Would we all be saying how if we had a Lucic type player it would have put us over the top?
 

KingsFan7824

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What's done is done. Can't get the picks for Sekera or Lucic back. Going slowly for a few years, then from 0 to 60 in 3 seconds after getting Richards, cruising at 80 for a few years, then after Game 3 in 2014 it goes to 120mph, and then they tried to keep the high going, but as usual with things like that, everything came crashing down.

I wouldn't mind seeing a little detox time. Let Lucic go, let the other guys go. Keep the picks. Let the young guys play. Any free agents, go with more of a 2007 summer. Kopitar, Brown, Quick, Carter, Gaborik, Muzzin, Martinez, they're all making money. Toffoli and Pearson coming up, and each will probably at least double what they're getting if they're as productive as we hope they are.

The last 2 years have already happened, so if they're sort of on the fence as a team next year, is it that big of a deal? We've seen them miss the playoffs. We've seen them go out in 5 relatively quiet games. Less might be more for Lombardi this summer.
 

tsanuri

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I think he will easily get more. I would be ok with a 6x6 but am completely fine with DL digging his heals in at 4.

Sucks we lost another 1st for a rental (at least it was a full year rental), but I still think Lucic was worth it

I think he'll get what he wants as well. But can hope.
I just see DL being much more cautious now with these longer deals.
Yes he made the one with Kopi, our number 1 C. He'll make the deal with Doughty the number 1 D. And I can see him doing it for Toffoli our number 1 winger on either side.
 

BigKing

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I think DL thought that Lucic would put LA over the top and Lucic-Kopitar-Gaborik would be a line with star power not seen in LA since Deadmarsh-Alisson-Palffy. Followed with Pearson-Carter-Toffoli when was the last time LA had that solid of a top 6 on paper? LA wasn't going to be able to keep Jones so Lucic for a 1st is a pretty fair deal. Especially as it was a full season not just a trade deadline rental.

Sekera really is unfortunate. If he does not get injured does LA make the playoffs? If Richards is not arrested is he then traded at the draft allowing cap room to re-sign Sekera? It sure sounded like LA and Sekera were close in term and $$ on a new deal but the Richards and Voynov saga's didn't allow the deal to be finalized. Cannot blame Sekera for not wanted to wait it out (Bird in the hand..).

I think we will see a little LA re-tool while still being competitive. I do not want to see prime Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Toffoli and Muzzin years wasted.

edit: lets say LA does not trade for Lucic and loses in the 1st round. Would we all be saying how if we had a Lucic type player it would have put us over the top?

Doubt it. I don't think many--if any at all--were looking at the aftermath of 2015 thinking "This team needs a Lucic to put them over the top". An upgrade on the numbers Williams brought in 2015 was discussed, although 18 goals wasn't too shabby. Think the primary concern was replacing JW's points, 3C and the defense.

They replaced--and improved upon--JW's points but 3C wasn't addressed until Vinny which, while fun to watch, was still not ideal for a contender. We all know that Regher was not replaced, never mind Voynov.

Now we are here wondering:
--Who replaces Lucic's points which replaced/improve upon JW's?
--3C???
--Defense???

So we are pretty much back where we started except we are now even more worried about the pipeline and Brown--once again--did not bounce back.

Still a very good team. Said it before but it is such a fine line between 1st round loser and winning the whole thing in a cap world and the parity that follows. Money is scarce though so, once again, the team's stars have to not **** the bed like against SJ this year and the youth from Ontario needs to contribute. They don't have to be world beaters but just provide decent minutes.
 

YP44

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Doubt it. I don't think many--if any at all--were looking at the aftermath of 2015 thinking "This team needs a Lucic to put them over the top". An upgrade on the numbers Williams brought in 2015 was discussed, although 18 goals wasn't too shabby. Think the primary concern was replacing JW's points, 3C and the defense.

They replaced--and improved upon--JW's points but 3C wasn't addressed until Vinny which, while fun to watch, was still not ideal for a contender. We all know that Regher was not replaced, never mind Voynov.

Now we are here wondering:
--Who replaces Lucic's points which replaced/improve upon JW's?
--3C???
--Defense???

So we are pretty much back where we started except we are now even more worried about the pipeline and Brown--once again--did not bounce back.

Still a very good team. Said it before but it is such a fine line between 1st round loser and winning the whole thing in a cap world and the parity that follows. Money is scarce though so, once again, the team's stars have to not **** the bed like against SJ this year and the youth from Ontario needs to contribute. They don't have to be world beaters but just provide decent minutes.

so if Lucic walks how much cap space will LA have after Vinny retires? Like 10M.

Columbus is up against the cap and I would welcome JMFJ back to LA. He was made expendable because of Voynov..now that Voynov is gone could he come back?
 

tsanuri

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so if Lucic walks how much cap space will LA have after Vinny retires? Like 10M.

Columbus is up against the cap and I would welcome JMFJ back to LA. He was made expendable because of Voynov..now that Voynov is gone could he come back?

If the cap is 74M around that with 11/6/1 signed from the current team.
 

KingsFan7824

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so if Lucic walks how much cap space will LA have after Vinny retires? Like 10M.

Columbus is up against the cap and I would welcome JMFJ back to LA. He was made expendable because of Voynov..now that Voynov is gone could he come back?

By my count, it could be anywhere from about $9m to about $11.5m, with a backup goalie, 2 defensemen, and at least 2 forwards needed.

They could get a bunch of guys for $2m, but you usually get what you pay for. They could go crazy with one guy for one year, like Hossa with Detroit or something, but, who fits that criteria? It's not that the Kings can't do anything, but yeah, too much beyond next season and things get that much more complicated with contracts for Toffoli and Pearson that need to be signed.
 

tsanuri

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There is the possibility of a flat cap and have to be mindful of Toffoli's extension.
This is a post I made elsewhere on the site.
I think it's important to note the word relatively was used.

What does relatively mean?
They were saying around 74M which would be an increase of 2.6M at the 74 number. But that is only a 3.6% increase. When for years the league was going at 8%. So could a 3.6% increase be seen as relatively flat?

Think of it like in government here in the USA. If a program doesn't get the projected increase it was going to it is called a cut. Even if spending went up.
Think that is the type of thing we are seeing here. The growth rate has slowed and isn't going up as fast as they had projected. So it's flat.
 

deeshamrock

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This is a post I made elsewhere on the site.
I think it's important to note the word relatively was used.

What does relatively mean?
They were saying around 74M which would be an increase of 2.6M at the 74 number. But that is only a 3.6% increase. When for years the league was going at 8%. So could a 3.6% increase be seen as relatively flat?

Think of it like in government here in the USA. If a program doesn't get the projected increase it was going to it is called a cut. Even if spending went up.
Think that is the type of thing we are seeing here. The growth rate has slowed and isn't going up as fast as they had projected. So it's flat.

I'm guessing it means what Daly said, relatively flat , would be at or just above or below the current CAP.

http://www.todaysslapshot.com/from-the-ice/bettman-daly-expect-nhl-salary-cap-remain-flat/

The flat salary cap means that teams will have likely somewhere in the ballpark of $71 million to spend next season

And that shouldn't be a surprise, the CAnadian dollar was nosediving most of the year; they were hoping (FEb/Mar) that it would rebound, it didn't.

And it will have a huge effect on the Free Agents and the trades , teams trying to dump salary.

Article cites the Coyotes with 34 M in CAP space and Canes and Devils with 30.
 
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so if Lucic walks how much cap space will LA have after Vinny retires? Like 10M.

Columbus is up against the cap and I would welcome JMFJ back to LA. He was made expendable because of Voynov..now that Voynov is gone could he come back?

Jack Minus 100 Johnson? Dreadful defender, you're insane if you want him back on the Kings. Do you miss Joe Corvo too?
 

SettlementRichie10

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I don't think JJ would want to come back here, anyway. He wasn't thrilled about getting traded in the first place.
 
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