Brett Hull: Mike Modano is a top 5 (American?) player of all time

[unknown33]

Is Brett Hull a Top 5 American player? Or a Top 100 Canadian?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Modano was just so quiet for such a successful franchise center. No awards 'n stuff (even robbed (not performance wise) on the Calder by an over aged Soviet). One 2nd team all-star selection in 99–00. And despite having all the right attributes (skating, shot, hair) for a flashy game, he wasn't that flashy. And not a lot of dramatic headlines (except high prices on dog food). Kopitar's almost a carbon copy, except for the looks.

The reason Modano was better than Sundin in the NHL was because Sundin became slower when he bulked up, and it also always felt he was 10% winger (Sundin) with perhaps not optimal instincts for a fluid 200-foot game.

Modano also had a much better coach, or at least one much more appropriate to the era. The outstanding two-way game that Modano developed under Hitchock is what sets up apart from Sundin, who never developed such a game.

 

[sr edler]

Modano also had a much better coach, or at least one much more appropriate to the era. The outstanding two-way game that Modano developed under Hitchock is what sets up apart from Sundin, who never developed such a game.

That's kinda what I meant. But even with Hitchcock as a coach it's not a given Sundin would replicate Modano because he wasn't as swift on his skates anymore.

 

[sr edler]

Mats Sundin > Fats Sundin

 

[tony d]

Top 5 American player all time for sure. Behind Chelios, Leetch, Brimsek and Hull.

 

[VanIslander]

I always thought Modano was greater than Hull.

Indirectly, that is what Brett is admitting.

 

[MXD]

Not amongst the five best American players as far as I'm concerned. Ranging between 6th and 8th, depending on how I feel about Brian Leetch and Tom Barrasso on that given day.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Modano also had a much better coach, or at least one much more appropriate to the era. The outstanding two-way game that Modano developed under Hitchock is what sets up apart from Sundin, who never developed such a game.

i think you can also consider culture and veteran leadership. without even going into all of the grizzled vets the stars brought in after the move to dallas, young modano was guided by bob gainey in his short tenure as coach of the north stars, curt giles was the captain, gaetan duchesne and stew gavin, brian propp, bobby smith, even by osmosis that's quite a head start that the young, uncooperate modano had over sundin's leadership core of lafleur, michel petit, tony hrkac, and young sakic.

who's a better example to look up to? neal broten, or mike hough and steven finn?

 

[bobbyking]

Any reason you didn't include, "Brett Hull:" in the title?

Then we could all have a fun laugh at Brett's expense, without getting so riled up first .

You didn't like that approach?

 

[Big Phil]

I can't add Hull as an American. He is in that weird position of not really being an American or a Canadian. In a way, he's like an Italian who has lived in Canada for 25 years but he is a foreigner if he goes back to visit Italy and he is a foreigner in Canada. I guess if anything you'd pick Hull as a Canadian, so I am going to do this without him.

Top 5:
Chelios
Brimsek
Leetch
Modano
Barrasso

Man...........is that it? Is Modano the clearly best American forward of all-time? Lafontaine didn't play long enough to crack this list I don't think. Roenick is definitely below Modano among forwards and it will be a long time before either of Matthews or Eichel or Jack Hughes can cement their status. Chelios is among the top 10 defensemen on many lists and I personally think Brimsek is criminally underrated. Not sure why people would put him below Durnan personally. But that forward position...........man there should be higher peaks there.

Enter Patrick Kane. When does he crack this top 5 list?

 

[Dr Pepper]

I don't even know if Mike is a top 3 player from his draft year (personal opinion), so I don't consider him a top 5 player of all time. But he is hands down one of the greatest Americans to ever play the game. And over 2 decades with the Stars organization is just so impressive.

You've piqued my curiosity.......who do you have ahead of him? Selanne for sure.......Roenick and Brind'Amour? Blake, maybe?

Looking back at that draft......goddamn, what a bad year for goalies. Slim pickings.

Also, when did the league cut the number of draft rounds? Why drop from 12 to 7? So many players get passed over each year, can they just draft more players? You'd think now that there's more teams they'd have more rounds, not less.

I can't add Hull as an American. He is in that weird position of not really being an American or a Canadian. In a way, he's like an Italian who has lived in Canada for 25 years but he is a foreigner if he goes back to visit Italy and he is a foreigner in Canada. I guess if anything you'd pick Hull as a Canadian, so I am going to do this without him.

Top 5:
Chelios
Brimsek
Leetch
Modano
Barrasso

Man...........is that it? Is Modano the clearly best American forward of all-time? Lafontaine didn't play long enough to crack this list I don't think. Roenick is definitely below Modano among forwards and it will be a long time before either of Matthews or Eichel or Jack Hughes can cement their status. Chelios is among the top 10 defensemen on many lists and I personally think Brimsek is criminally underrated. Not sure why people would put him below Durnan personally. But that forward position...........man there should be higher peaks there.

Enter Patrick Kane. When does he crack this top 5 list?

It could definitely be argued that Roenick had a better peak....definitely offensively, since Modano never broke 100 pts. Same draft year, too.

 

[sr edler]

Kane could quit today and is still easily better than Barrasso.

 

[sr edler]

It could definitely be argued that Roenick had a better peak....definitely offensively, since Modano never broke 100 pts. Same draft year, too.

Roenick and Modano played on the same line at the 1989 WJC, with LeClair acting third wheel. No idea which one of them played wing though.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Roenick and Modano played on the same line at the 1989 WJC, with LeClair acting third wheel. No idea which one of them played wing though.

Best lines in WJC history

Mike Modano-Jeremy Roenick-John LeClair (USA, 1989)
In November, the U.S. Hockey Hall of Fame inducted the 1996 World Cup of Hockey team. Both LeClair and Modano were cornerstones of the most glorious generation in American hockey history, and Roenick only missed the ‘96 tournament due to a contract dispute. In 1989, this trio ran wild on home ice, actually outscoring Bure, Fyodorov and Mogilny. Roenick led the World Juniors with 16 points, and Modano was close behind with 15. Even though losses to the Soviets, Swedes and Canadians doomed their medal hopes, USA Hockey took pride in the young talent it was breeding.

Looks like Modano was shifted to the wing. They finished 1-2 in scoring, respectively.....but finished out of the medals.

Bure got the "best forward" nod for the gold-medal Soviets.

EDIT: Looking at the rest of that list, 31 points for Forsberg at the 93 WJC's? That's bananas.

Pretty sure a third of em came in one game, though. 20-1 win over Japan might have helped.

 

[Neutrinos]

Mike Modano is underrated because he played under the suffocating Hitchcock system, peaking at the heart of the dead puck era, both of which severely diminished his numbers.

But he was a great two-way franchise center, and if you look at the playoffs ice-time among forwards in the last 30 years (for deep runs), I'm pretty sure his back-to-back runs are #1.He played defensemen minutes.He should have won the Smythe in 1999.

He was also playing on both special units.

When you have a player like that it certainly makes things easier.

Modano came into the league scoring .94 points per game over 80 games as a 19 year old

Over the following 5 seasons he posted a PPG average of .81, 1.01, 1.13, 1.22, .97

So during the high scoring era of the early 90's - before Hitchcock arrived - he topped out as a 93 point scorer, and only once finished in the top 20 in scoring during that period

Many players peak in their early 20's, so I think it's pure speculation to assume Modano's offense was significantly diminished playing in Hitchcock's system

 

[GreatGonzo]

Maybe he meant “talent” or skilled wise.....

He was a very special and unique player for what he was able to do on both ends of the ice. He drove the offense while playing the heavy defensive minutes and excelling at both. Not saying I agree but Modano was savy, he had “Datsyuk-like” skills with the puck while being a grinder and playing a “dirtier” game. He was able to be one of the best players in the league for a good chunk of time.

Top 5 is extremely generous to the point that it’s embarrassing, but skill wise I do wonder how others view him.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Modano came into the league scoring .94 points per game over 80 games as a 19 year old

Over the following 5 seasons he posted a PPG average of .81, 1.01, 1.13, 1.22, .97

So during the high scoring era of the early 90's - before Hitchcock arrived - he topped out as a 93 point scorer, and only once finished in the top 20 in scoring during that period

Many players peak in their early 20's, so I think it's pure speculation to assume Modano's offense was significantly diminished playing in Hitchcock's system

He didn’t peak during that time though. His 84 and 85 point seasons are arguably much impressive than both is 93 point seasons. He spent a majority of his peak in the DPE and was one of the most productive while being a selke caliber center.

Hitchcock’s system was entirely defensive based and Modano was used a lot at both ends

 

[Nick Hansen]

Don't forget Mark Howe, he was a really good player. Lost Norris trophies to Langway, Coffey and Bourque.

 

[Neutrinos]

He didn’t peak during that time though. His 84 and 85 point seasons are arguably much impressive than both is 93 point seasons. He spent a majority of his peak in the DPE and was one of the most productive while being a selke caliber center.

Hitchcock’s system was entirely defensive based and Modano was used a lot at both ends

Fair enough

 

[Big Phil]

Many players peak in their early 20's, so I think it's pure speculation to assume Modano's offense was significantly diminished playing in Hitchcock's system

I remember a question asked to him during an interview scrum that went along the lines of: "Has Ken Hitchcock made you a better player?"

His response was something along the lines of wanting to pass on the question because he didn't want to get his teammates mad, jokingly of course

 

[Neutrinos]

I remember a question asked to him during an interview scrum that went along the lines of: "Has Ken Hitchcock made you a better player?"

His response was something along the lines of wanting to pass on the question because he didn't want to get his teammates mad, jokingly of course

I don't get it

 

[KevinRedkey]

I have Hull, Kane, LaFontaine, and Leetch ahead of him. IDK much about Langway so maybe he's deserving as well?

Either way top 5 is reasonable

 

[Neutrinos]

I have Hull, Kane, LaFontaine, and Leetch ahead of him. IDK much about Langway so maybe he's deserving as well?

Either way top 5 is reasonable

Chelios too

 

[The Panther]

If we exclude Hull and go with the American born and raised only, then I would rate Pat Lafontaine and Patrick Kane as the two most talented and "highest peaked" American forwards. Modano isn't in their class in pure skill, I don't think.

I sometimes think Lafontaine doesn't get fair ranking in these discussions. He had insane skill level in skating, stickhandling, passing, shooting. Check out his Junior stats: In 1982-83 he outscored Mario Lemieux.

Patrick Kane is truly elite now, and has multiple Cups and a scoring title.

Now, if you want to argue that Modano had a better career or was a stronger overall player, there's a case for sure. But in terms of peak and skill level, he is definitely behind those two guys.
(But he's ahead of Roenick.)

 

[BenchBrawl]

I can't add Hull as an American. He is in that weird position of not really being an American or a Canadian. In a way, he's like an Italian who has lived in Canada for 25 years but he is a foreigner if he goes back to visit Italy and he is a foreigner in Canada. I guess if anything you'd pick Hull as a Canadian, so I am going to do this without him.

Top 5:
Chelios
Brimsek
Leetch
Modano
Barrasso

Man...........is that it? Is Modano the clearly best American forward of all-time? Lafontaine didn't play long enough to crack this list I don't think. Roenick is definitely below Modano among forwards and it will be a long time before either of Matthews or Eichel or Jack Hughes can cement their status. Chelios is among the top 10 defensemen on many lists and I personally think Brimsek is criminally underrated. Not sure why people would put him below Durnan personally. But that forward position...........man there should be higher peaks there.

Enter Patrick Kane. When does he crack this top 5 list?

Isn't Kane already past Leetch? If not he must be damn close.He's been at the very upper echelon of the NHL since 2013, and he too has the playoffs heroics.