Player Discussion Braden Holtby Appreciation Thread

[g00n]

Once again, this coaching staff is overthinking something simple. Goaltending has always been "square up, set your angle and depth to the shooter." That's the way to stop the puck carrier from just shooting it directly into the net.

Basically, what I read of these adjustments, is that they're designed to open holes for the shooter in order to take away the pass.

IMO, it's not that he's having trouble incorporating the adjustments. The adjustments are just bad and make him a worse goalie.

Exactly. But that's only part of it. Add the bad adjustments to the interference with "flow state" and you have a double-whammy potential for crap positioning and crap reaction. Which is precisely what we've been seeing.

 

[Mothra]

It's basically exactly what you said, yes.

There's plenty of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, that indicates the downturn in play was due to the coaches ****ing with his style. His performances and numbers to a nose dive right around when the article in question came out.

When there's smoke, there's fire.

Its all circumstantial...what is the "otherwise" evidence?

The team is a mess....from top to bottom. Feel free to blame everyone but Holtby for Holbys poor play...im not going to do that. The guy on the ice has some responsibility for how he plays. To me it seems like most here are like "how could you expect him to play well when he is asked to adjust his game"...im sorry, I expect him to play well. Im not discounting the clown show the Caps are now....but im not excusing him fully either. He is a pro and he isnt getting it done

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

More blame on the coaches and little accountability for the player I see....typical.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Would you expect Ovechkin to score 60 under Hunter for a year?

Hunter's team system (and reduced icetime) that would hinder Ovechkin from doing that, not some coaching tweaks.

 

[Hersh]

This is a typical overreaction to a player not having a good season. Do some of you Holtby haters have any idea how up and down some of the great goalies have been during a career. I'm not saying Holtby should be considered a great goalie, but he is still a really young goalie that has played great in some of the pressure situations he has faced.

I think a lot of the blame lies on the coaching staff and lack of defense. One of the most important parts of coaching is the psychological aspect in dealing with young players. That's why rotating three goalies at once was ridiculous. The young players need to know they have the backing of their coaches and can't be afraid to make mistakes.

As far as the defense goes, the Caps goalies are being asked way too often to bail out bad defense all the way around. How many odd man rushes do the Caps give up game after game?

Seriously, what goalie in the league would be successful behind the Caps blueliners?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Its all circumstantial...what is the "otherwise" evidence?

The team is a mess....from top to bottom. Feel free to blame everyone but Holtby for Holbys poor play...im not going to do that. The guy on the ice has some responsibility for how he plays. To me it seems like most here are like "how could you expect him to play well when he is asked to adjust his game"...im sorry, I expect him to play well. Im not discounting the clown show the Caps are now....but im not excusing him fully either. He is a pro and he isnt getting it done

This is what I don't get. I think we can admit that the coaching, goalie rotations, etc, have effected his mental game/confidence some and that the team D sucks and the team overall is a mess, but those blindly defending Holtby can't even admit that he should shoulder some of the blame as well. He just hasn't played well and the area he's gotten HORRIBLE at is making a save through screens. It feels like you could wave a feather boa in front of him and Jeff Schultz could find a way to score from the point.

 

[SDBondra]

I think part of the problem is somebody told Kolzig he was a great goalie and now he's decided to forcefully impart his wisdom on Holtby. Kolzig was consistently a good goalie but outside his Vezina year he was never top 5 in the league. He was never in the top echelon of Hasek, Brodeur, Roy or even Belfour and it's debatable whether he belongs in the same group as Richter, Giguere and CuJo. I know I'm kind of pulling names from my butt - my point is that he's not goaltending royalty. I like him but I'm not sure where he gets off trying to make so many changes in these young goalies' games. He can be a great mentor but his strengths were his size and his mental strength/maturity. His technique was never world class.

Am I totally talking out of my butt? I don't really know exactly how much influence he's had on Holtby but I do recognize that BH has taken a pretty substantial step backwards from where he was in the playoffs the last couple of years.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

This is a typical overreaction to a player not having a good season. Do some of you Holtby haters have any idea how up and down some of the great goalies have been during a career. I'm not saying Holtby should be considered a great goalie, but he is still a really young goalie that has played great in some of the pressure situations he has faced.

I think a lot of the blame lies on the coaching staff and lack of defense. One of the most important parts of coaching is the psychological aspect in dealing with young players. That's why rotating three goalies at once was ridiculous. The young players need to know they have the backing of their coaches and can't be afraid to make mistakes.

As far as the defense goes, the Caps goalies are being asked way too often to bail out bad defense all the way around. How many odd man rushes do the Caps give up game after game?

Seriously, what goalie in the league would be successful behind the Caps blueliners?

So again, not a single ounce of responsibility for the player? It's ALL everyone else's fault?

Everyone gets that players are up and down. The goalie is a position that can sink a hockey team quicker than any and in the salary cap world from here on out, it will ALWAYS be "what have you done for me lately" for any player. Look at any player struggling and their fanbase is all over them. Better get used to that. I haven't seen anyone saying this is ALL on 70, but the criticism is fair.

I think he's a good young goalie who's proven very little other than he's talented. I'm pulling for him to turn it around, but I see him going the wrong way right now.

 

[Mothra]

Let's say you're a right handed shot, and the coach gives you a left handed stick. Are you going to play the same? You could probably learn to play the other way but it would take time and you would not be automatic or even competent at first. You would have to think your way through almost every movement and would be little better than a beginner playing his correct side.

Thats a very poor analogy. How about something more realistic...like maybe backchecking differently or taking different lines to the net...hold the puck a little longer, you klnow...adjustments...not playing with the other hand.

That's an extreme example but that's what happens when you make adjustments that require conscious thought be applied to previously automatic movements. Any professional athlete, sports psychologist or neuroscientist studying conscious/unconscious activity in the brain will tell you this is his how it works.

Its not an extreme example...its not an example at all for what happened
what is it goalie coached do then? Just stand there saying "keep doing that"?

It appears bold and practical to say "if he can't take coaching he isn't very good" but that's an oversimplification and not at all accurate. Not all adjustments are the same. And as I said before, the conflicts internally and externally have Holtby tied in knots when before all he had to do was show up and play.

I didnt say he wasnt very good if he cant take some coaching...im saying if some coaching crumbled his confidence to the point where he lost his game for the better part of a season, its not a good sign. He plays a position where confidence is everything and you have to have a very short memory.

This is the first real bump we have seen in his short career....I'd like to see him be able to put this behind him, others want to look for every other excuse to explain why its not on him

Instead of recognize this poisoning of the well the Caps management moved out one guy and brought in another, which in Holtby's compromised state is probably ****ing with his head pretty hard.

He DOES need to recognize what's going on and either work harder at incorporating Kolzig's changes (which I think are wrong) so they become more automatic, or he needs to get control of his mental state and begin positive rehearsal and reinforcement in addition to recapturing his previous style and swagger. In practice first, then games.

Again....if he is sooo rattled by coaching adjustments and competition, its not a good sign. People are acting like he has had a Ken Dryden like start to his career....he has looked to be good up to this year but IMO he hasnt established himself as some rock solid NHL starting goalie, yet.

 

[Hersh]

So again, not a single ounce of responsibility for the player? It's ALL everyone else's fault?

Everyone gets that players are up and down. The goalie is a position that can sink a hockey team quicker than any and in the salary cap world from here on out, it will ALWAYS be "what have you done for me lately" for any player. Look at any player struggling and their fanbase is all over them. Better get used to that. I haven't seen anyone saying this is ALL on 70, but the criticism is fair.

I think he's a good young goalie who's proven very little other than he's talented. I'm pulling for him to turn it around, but I see him going the wrong way right now.

I think Holtby definitely has to accept partial responsibility for his play. In fact, I don't see anyone here saying Holtby has no responsibility. I think we are simply pointing out the obvious deficiencies the Caps have on defense and thus we give the goaltending a bit of a pass. Now if you fix the defense and Holtby is still letting in soft goals and making no big saves, then I will concede he has lost it. Thinking about the last two games against the Flyers, would you consider any of those soft goals? Maybe the overtime one to me.

 

[Mothra]

This is what I don't get. I think we can admit that the coaching, goalie rotations, etc, have effected his mental game/confidence some and that the team D sucks and the team overall is a mess, but those blindly defending Holtby can't even admit that he should shoulder some of the blame as well. He just hasn't played well and the area he's gotten HORRIBLE at is making a save through screens. It feels like you could wave a feather boa in front of him and Jeff Schultz could find a way to score from the point.

And that is pretty much it.. I like Holtby and still think he will be fine. The coaching staff and front office should be wearing clown shoes, no question.....but seriously, how is Holtby himself not shouldering some of the blame for his poor play. I cant imagine, even with truth serum, Holtby not saying he needs to play better

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I think Holtby definitely has to accept partial responsibility for his play. In fact, I don't see anyone here saying Holtby has no responsibility. I think we are simply pointing out the obvious deficiencies the Caps have on defense and thus we give the goaltending a bit of a pass. Now if you fix the defense and Holtby is still letting in soft goals and making no big saves, then I will concede he has lost it. Thinking about the last two games against the Flyers, would you consider any of those soft goals? Maybe the overtime one to me.

There are less than 40 posts in this thread, more than half from his defenders and there's barely a mention of him taking any responsibility. It's all about the coaching and the D or what a **** show the franchise is.

Fixing the D isn't going to prevent soft goals. That's mental weakness IMO. Honestly I don't feel like picking apart specific games/goals, but I thought he should have had at least one last night and on another he shot the puck up the boards right to a Flyer and it led directly to a goal.

And honestly, I don't fault him on most goals, but somehow, someway good goalies find the way to make the save. He just has to get the job done somehow.

 

[Liberati0n*]

Regardless of the Kolzig/Oates stuff, whose impact I think is actually being overestimated, Holtby's tendency to get rattled and let himself feel undermined by certain things has always been his biggest problem. The flip side of that is that his play is particularly outstanding when his confidence is high, and I think he's smart and poised enough overall to learn to overcome the mental issues over time. Coaching that legitimately hinders his play by asking him to physically do the wrong things is obviously a problem that has to be addressed, but in terms of its impact on his confidence he needs to deal with it. Maybe the organization has jerked him around a little bit, as someone said yesterday, but too bad. All he can control is how he reacts to that, and to this point he usually hasn't reacted well. The talent is there and I think he'll get past this kind of stuff in time.

Separately, the overreactions here tend to verge on absurd, even putting aside some obvious posters who have personal agendas against him. Writing him off as Jim Carey is beyond premature and just crazy.

Another related thing that's interesting to think about is how the team's psychological weakness overall may relate to him. In a few instances we've seen downward spirals where it seems like the team and the goalies are simultaneously blowing games, mainly during the longer losing streaks. It's easier for a goalie to get rattled when the team around him is disorganized and mentally fragile. Obviously that goes the other way too, but it's worth considering how having a real coach and a team with the slightest hint of mental toughness might help Holtby deal with his issues better, or at the very least provide stability.

 

[Hersh]

There are less than 40 posts in this thread, more than half from his defenders and there's barely a mention of him taking any responsibility. It's all about the coaching and the D or what a **** show the franchise is.

Fixing the D isn't going to prevent soft goals. That's mental weakness IMO. Honestly I don't feel like picking apart specific games/goals, but I thought he should have had at least one last night and on another he shot the puck up the boards right to a Flyer and it led directly to a goal.

And honestly, I don't fault him on most goals, but somehow, someway good goalies find the way to make the save. He just has to get the job done somehow.

No question he has rightfully been blasted by all for soft goals, but saying he just has to get the job done somehow can't be taken seriously. He's made plenty of outstanding saves to keep the Caps in games. If you want a goalie to do that all the time, you are in for a long season. Oh, I do think Holtby is too confident with his stick handling and it's cost him more than a couple goals against.

 

[SDBondra]

Oh, I do think Holtby is too confident with his stick handling and it's cost him more than a couple goals against.

You could say the same thing about Mike Green.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

No question he has rightfully been blasted by all for soft goals, but saying he just has to get the job done somehow can't be taken seriously. He's made plenty of outstanding saves to keep the Caps in games. If you want a goalie to do that all the time, you are in for a long season. Oh, I do think Holtby is too confident with his stick handling and it's cost him more than a couple goals against.

It can be said and IS said repeatedly around the NHL. "(insert goalie name here) has to find a way to make that save". It's coach/GM speak that's used ALL the time after games in interviews. Boudreau used to say it, Oates has said it, McPhee says it, watch post game interviews, it's said all the time.

And nobody suggested a goalie has to make outstanding saves ALL of the time. Great goalies let in goals...everyone gets that. Soft goals however KILL teams.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Its all circumstantial...what is the "otherwise" evidence?

The team is a mess....from top to bottom. Feel free to blame everyone but Holtby for Holbys poor play...im not going to do that. The guy on the ice has some responsibility for how he plays. To me it seems like most here are like "how could you expect him to play well when he is asked to adjust his game"...im sorry, I expect him to play well. Im not discounting the clown show the Caps are now....but im not excusing him fully either. He is a pro and he isnt getting it done

Well Holtby's flat-out said he was having trouble adjusting to sitting deeper and that his confidence was rattled. I wouldn't call a first-person admission circumstantial.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

No question he has rightfully been blasted by all for soft goals, but saying he just has to get the job done somehow can't be taken seriously. He's made plenty of outstanding saves to keep the Caps in games. If you want a goalie to do that all the time, you are in for a long season. Oh, I do think Holtby is too confident with his stick handling and it's cost him more than a couple goals against.

It's easier to blame the goalie all the time than lay a finger of blame on the coaching.

Holtby hasn't been playing well, there's no question about it. But anyone who absolves this cluster**** of a 'coaching' staff is out to lunch.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Yeah I see tons of absolution for the coaching....tons. Please...

 

[RandyHolt]

Adding to Holtby's full plate, we just got Halak.

Sure he is likely just a rental, and thus it's nothing for Holtby to concern himself with long term.

But it seems like Holtby starting again tonight after getting yanked on a B2B says management is concerned about how he is taking it. They are nurturing him, and he knows it. Its worse than just sitting him tonight. He is a man, he understands sitting after a loss or in B2B's. He is probably stunned he is starting. Handing him the starting job.

Nature over Nurture. Nature always wins.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Well, you've done it repeatedly. Selective reading, I guess.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Adding to Holtby's full plate, we just got Halak.

Sure he is likely just a rental, and thus it's nothing for Holtby to concern himself with long term.

But it seems like Holtby starting again tonight after getting yanked on a B2B says management is concerned about how he is taking it. They are nurturing him, and he knows it. Its worse than just sitting him tonight. He is a man, he understands sitting after a loss or in B2B's. He is probably stunned he is starting. Handing him the starting job.

Nature over Nurture. Nature always wins.

I hope they're treating him with kid gloves honestly. He appears so mentally fragile. A sports psychologist is probably in order right about now. He's a talented guy I would hate to see ruined so early.

I expect it's more about Halak not being ready. Hope I'm wrong and they're really trying to help him.

 

[ChibiPooky]

That's the only thing I'm holding onto, is maybe Halak is tired from moving twice in a week or something.

 

[g00n]

That's the only thing I'm holding onto, is maybe Halak is tired from moving twice in a week or something.

Yup.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-but-braden-holtby-will-start-against-bruins/

 

[RandyHolt]

I don't buy it. A 28 year old can move furniture all day and then play hockey that night. And twice to Sunday.

I highly doubt Halak asked to not play / called out too tired; as a tear comes to Neuvy's eye. I don't know anything about him but am willing to wager he wants to play. Tonight. Anxiety and everything else, he is ready to roll. I have never heard of a guy not ready or able to play, the day after the deadline.