Confirmed with Link: Borowiecki signs three-year extension

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
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I hope the added muscle does not slow him down.

There was a picture of Karlsson floating around this summer (I think from his twitter feed) and the kid's thighs were massive. Not sure where the pic is, but holy crap, no way he's slowing down with that kind of power in his legs.
 

Real Smart Sens Fan

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Jun 14, 2014
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Here's the best quote in the whole piece, which sums up my feelings about the extension pretty thoroughly, I think:

"If there's a question of whether or not a player is good enough to compete in the National Hockey League, the answer should never be 'let's find out by first giving him a three-year extension'."

Maybe its that they think he IS an NHL player, but that they currently have 8 other NHL players... Next year they wont have that problem. Signing him to 4 years pretty much guarantees that if they waive him, he wont be grabbed - simply because no team will commit 4 years to a guy they know nothing about.
 

BloodRedArmy

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Nov 29, 2013
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Bryan Murray has been in the NHL for like 100 years. Travis Yost writes blogs on the internet and claims that NHL owners are "after" him.

I'll take Murray's take on this one.
 

blahblah3

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Jan 8, 2010
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Here's the best quote in the whole piece, which sums up my feelings about the extension pretty thoroughly, I think:

"If there's a question of whether or not a player is good enough to compete in the National Hockey League, the answer should never be 'let's find out by first giving him a three-year extension'."

That question doesn't even exist. The only reason he wasn't already playing in the NHL last year was due to BM's hard on for a washed up, out of shape D-man who was taking Boro's spot.
 

BonkTastic

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That question doesn't even exist. The only reason he wasn't already playing in the NHL last year was due to BM's hard on for a washed up, out of shape D-man who was taking Boro's spot.

Are you referring to Corvo? Because I wouldn't call what he was doing "playing in the NHL". More like "eating NHL-caliber nachos in the press box".

I mean, Wiercioch only played ~64% of the Sens games last year and was a fairly regular healthy scratch at times, and he's about a Brazilian times better than Boro.

There were a lot more roadblocks to Boro being a regular in the NHL last season than you think.
 

Real Smart Sens Fan

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Jun 14, 2014
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Are you referring to Corvo? Because I wouldn't call what he was doing "playing in the NHL". More like "eating NHL-caliber nachos in the press box".

I mean, Wiercioch only played ~64% of the Sens games last year and was a fairly regular healthy scratch at times, and he's about a Brazilian times better than Boro.

There were a lot more roadblocks to Boro being a regular in the NHL last season than you think.

Wiercioch is hardly more proven as an NHLer than Borowiecki is. At this point Wiercioch has a little more value and staying power than Michael Del Zotto. I have faith in him to have a good season but if he doesn't, next year will be make or break for him.
 

BonkTastic

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Wiercioch is hardly more proven as an NHLer than Borowiecki is.

Man, I'm usually one of the posters who is least-likely to pump Wier's tires, and even I can't be with you on this one.

PLAYER A:
103gp, 9g - 35a - 44pts, 0.42ppg

PLAYER B:
21gp, 1g - 0a - 1pt, 0.04ppg


You tell me which one is more proven in the NHL.
 

blahblah3

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Jan 8, 2010
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Are you referring to Corvo? Because I wouldn't call what he was doing "playing in the NHL". More like "eating NHL-caliber nachos in the press box".

I mean, Wiercioch only played ~64% of the Sens games last year and was a fairly regular healthy scratch at times, and he's about a Brazilian times better than Boro.

There were a lot more roadblocks to Boro being a regular in the NHL last season than you think.

I was referring to Mr. Phillips. I'd rather have Weir and Boro over Phillips at this point.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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Let's call it as it was: Cowen was bad last year. Average at his best, atrocious at his worst. And while you can debate him being worth $1.5 million, I would still say he belonged in the AHL, where he would have faced lesser competition and possibly built his game and confidence back up.

But back to the topic of the thread, namely Borowiecki and the unwarranted extension he got. Travis Yost had a good piece on it.

And despite this, so many people are sure he's a legitimate NHLer? Including management, who seem smitten with his character and hitting alone. Intangibles that frankly count for diddly-squat if you can't play well. And that he's a local kid. Yeeeesh.

I usually like Yost's work, and I do agree that there is some risk to this extension, however there are some obvious flaws with his evaluation here;

First, the team offered him this extension based on 2 things; his performance in the AHL this year, and his performance in the NHL this year. While I generally like using as big of a sample as possible, when looking at where a young player who has gone through some substantial development is, old year data is less relevant.

Looking at this year only, his numbers are in line with other NHL defensive D, though I'm not sure why shot attempts and pts/60 is a great evaluative tool for defensive D; he has stronger pts per 60 than Smid, Brodin, Pysyk, Carkner, Martin, Blum, Stoner, Hainsey, Salvador, Gleason ect and has better shot attempts per 60 than Hainsey, Campbell, Enstrom, Orpik, Fowler, Smid, Kronwall, Gunnarson, Gorges, Brodin, ect. Granted, it's a small sample, and many of those guys face tougher competition, but it was a small sample even including his previous 2 years, and he has clearly developed as a player.

The other consideration is that while the competition he faced wasn't top lines, he also wasn't in offensive deployments; he started far more often in the defensive end or NZ than the OZ. Yet another reason shot attempts and points are not a great measuring stick.

A better method (and probably the one the team used when opting to extend him)would have been to evaluate his performance against his peers in the AHL. Unfortunately the data is not as readily available and I doubt very much Yost or many hear have watched enough to make an informed evaluation.

Maybe its that they think he IS an NHL player, but that they currently have 8 other NHL players... Next year they wont have that problem. Signing him to 4 years pretty much guarantees that if they waive him, he wont be grabbed - simply because no team will commit 4 years to a guy they know nothing about.

That's a very expensive way for a budget team to protect a guy from waivers. More likely they believe he'll contribute at the NHL level immediately.
 

Real Smart Sens Fan

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Jun 14, 2014
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Man, I'm usually one of the posters who is least-likely to pump Wier's tires, and even I can't be with you on this one.

PLAYER A:
103gp, 9g - 35a - 44pts, 0.42ppg

PLAYER B:
21gp, 1g - 0a - 1pt, 0.04ppg


You tell me which one is more proven in the NHL.

He's more proven, not much though. There's also the matter of what he's done in those games... he often made a mistake and was right back out. I expect a similar amount of leeway for both this upcoming season.
 

BloodRedArmy

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Nov 29, 2013
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Man, I'm usually one of the posters who is least-likely to pump Wier's tires, and even I can't be with you on this one.

PLAYER A:
103gp, 9g - 35a - 44pts, 0.42ppg

PLAYER B:
21gp, 1g - 0a - 1pt, 0.04ppg


You tell me which one is more proven in the NHL.

When evaluating a SHUTDOWN, tough as nails defenceman, what do points have to do with it? To quote The Boss -- "absolutely nothing".
 

Micklebot

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When evaluating a SHUTDOWN, tough as nails defenceman, what do points have to do with it? To quote The Boss -- "absolutely nothing".

You could probably just focus on the 5 times as many games played. Wier is far more proven, no question about it.
 

BonkTastic

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When evaluating a SHUTDOWN, tough as nails defenceman, what do points have to do with it? To quote The Boss -- "absolutely nothing".

I haven't seen him shutting anyone down in the NHL yet. Some nice hits, but very unreliable defensive play.

That's not to say he can't do it, though... but that's the point I've been saying all along: he hasn't proven a damned thing yet at this level. The people here who are defending the contract are saying that there is more left that Boro hasn't shown us yet. I think there might be a BIT more, but he's basically at WYSIWYG territory for me, and should be, until he actually proves it in the NHL. I'm not going to sit here and play the "prospect projection" game with a 25 year old the same way that I would an 18 year old that we just drafted. I think there's a bit of room for improvement due to increasing familiarity with the speed of the NHL game and getting more accustomed to the kind of stuff you can't get away with at the NHL level that you can at the AHL level, but skill wise... that's it. There's not much left that he hasn't shown us, IMO. A bit, but not enough for me to say he's a sure-thing.

My argument isn't that he CAN'T be an NHL regular, but that he HASN'T YET SHOWN he can be. Is it wrong to want a guy to prove he belongs in the NHL before he gets a 3-year pass? If he's SO good that it's a foregone conclusion, then it shouldn't be a big deal that the team waits until January to make that call. I mean, 3 months of NHL time would TRIPLE his current GP.

For me at least, this has always been about the precedent set by giving an unproven 25 year old player a 3-year, 1-way deal. HOPEFULLY Murray is right about him, HOPEFULLY Boro projects as well as BMurr thinks he will... but I'm just saying that Boro was still going to be an RFA after this season. There was no reason whatsoever to give him 3 years now. There is almost no advantage at all. Why? Does anyone think he'll outplay enough guys ahead of him on the depth chart this year and cement his spot as a legit 2nd pairing guy? I doubt it. So you let him play out this year - a realistic best-case scenario is he proves himself to be a dependable 5/6th defenceman, and you offer him that 3-year deal once he's proven himself. By giving it to him now, it's all risk. The chances of ending up "ahead" on this deal, compared to the deal he would have signed NEXT offseason, is minuscule compared to the risk you take in giving it to him now.

Whatever, though. It's a silly argument to be having, because absolutely nobody is going to know one way or the other until like November, at the earliest. I think it was completely unnecessary risk. Others disagree. That's the argument in a nutshell - not much we can do now except wait.
 
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HavlatMach9

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Mar 17, 2011
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I don't think it sets a precedent after I listened to Randy Lee's explanation of the contract. They saw a hard working player (to the extent that other players can't match) and captain of the Bingo team who is close to the NHL who can push the players on the Sens.

I agree that a contract for him after this season would not have been much, if any better than the one we gave him before we needed to, but I found it interesting that the Sens brass feels there's zero red flags, so I will trust them.
 

FlyingJ

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Feb 25, 2014
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First, the team offered him this extension based on 2 things; his performance in the AHL this year, and his performance in the NHL this year. While I generally like using as big of a sample as possible, when looking at where a young player who has gone through some substantial development is, old year data is less relevant.

The AHL is so different from the NHL. Down there, guys can make a solid career having only 1 or 2 things they do well. Like hitting and fighting. As for his performance in the NHL this year, the 13 games he played? Yes, that is a damn small sample size to warrant giving a guy a 3 year one-way extension. He also played very sheltered minutes despite starting more in the defensive zone. He threw a lot of hits, but he was not some shutdown force.

Fact is, he has yet to show he's an everyday NHLer. Yet now some people here are saying Wiercioch is hardly more proven than Borowiecki? Sigh, only on HF Boards would people be so enamoured with a 25 year old prospect for his hits, fighting, and that he's a local kid. Meanwhile, much of the blogging community, the only group worth following for Sens news and analysis given the quality of the Sun and much of the Citizen, are largely scratching their heads over this move. And for good reason: it makes little to no sense.
 

Qward

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Jul 23, 2010
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Why are people so upset about this?

His extension doesn't kick in until next year. Even then it is only 1.1M.

So what if he will be in the press box have the time.
Boro>>Corvo>>>Gilroy>>Campoli

The guy busts his ass every game. He will be nipping at Cowen letting him know that if he screws up, Boro will take his spot. Maybe it forces Cowen to improve. Sometimes it seems like Cowen has a self entitlement attitude. Boro will help change that.
 

FlyingJ

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Feb 25, 2014
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I don't think it sets a precedent after I listened to Randy Lee's explanation of the contract. They saw a hard working player (to the extent that other players can't match) and captain of the Bingo team who is close to the NHL who can push the players on the Sens.

I agree that a contract for him after this season would not have been much, if any better than the one we gave him before we needed to, but I found it interesting that the Sens brass feels there's zero red flags, so I will trust them.

Again, hard work is great, but pointless if you can't play the game at a high enough level. Otherwise, all the hard work basically becomes aimlessly flailing around.

As for the Sens brass, they also saw fit to give Phillips, a player close to washing out if he hasn't already, a 2 year extension worth $2.5 million per season. They also gave Greening an extension of $2.65 million per season based on an inflated rookie year where he road on Jason Spezza's coattails. So forgive me for not thinking Sens management is lacking in player evaluation at times. They sometimes seem to get enamoured with intangibles and personality to the point they ignore other things.

Meanwhile, I suppose some here will just happily drink the kool aid and justify questionable at best moves. :shakehead
 

Qward

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Jul 23, 2010
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Again, hard work is great, but pointless if you can't play the game at a high enough level. Otherwise, all the hard work basically becomes aimlessly flailing around.

I suppose you missed the game when he crushed Malkin in the corner and stripped him of the puck?

As for the Sens brass, they also saw fit to give Phillips, a player close to washing out if he hasn't already, a 2 year extension worth $2.5 million per season. They also gave Greening an extension of $2.65 million per season based on an inflated rookie year where he road on Jason Spezza's coattails. So forgive me for not thinking Sens management is lacking in player evaluation at times. They sometimes seem to get enamoured with intangibles and personality to the point they ignore other things.
You will be hard pressed to find people here that agree with those signings.

Meanwhile, I suppose some here will just happily drink the kool aid and justify questionable at best moves. :shakehead
Just because people do not agree with you or your high and mighty "blogging community" doesn't mean we are drinking the "kool aid."

You are bordering on insulting people. Continue down that road and you will have to stick to the blogging community because you will not be welcomed here.
 

FlyingJ

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
841
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Why are people so upset about this?

His extension doesn't kick in until next year. Even then it is only 1.1M.

So what if he will be in the press box have the time.
Boro>>Corvo>>>Gilroy>>Campoli

The guy busts his ass every game. He will be nipping at Cowen letting him know that if he screws up, Boro will take his spot. Maybe it forces Cowen to improve. Sometimes it seems like Cowen has a self entitlement attitude. Boro will help change that.

Because this is a low budget team, and it's another baffling contract. I would rather money from Borowiecki (next year), Phillips, Greening, Michalek, and now Neil was being spent on good players. It also sets a precedent for guys who have proven jack $@&% at the NHL level getting extensions if they have a hard-nosed style, regardless of how well they play in the NHL, or if they've even proven they can play there on and everyday basis. Borowiecki and that kind of player are a dime-a-dozen, not somebody to focus on locking up before their existing contract expires. Especially when he was going to be RFA next year. No risk of walking. And even if he proved he can play in the NHL this year, was his next contract really going to be worth much more than $1.1 million annually? I seriously doubt it.
 

FlyingJ

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
841
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I suppose you missed the game when he crushed Malkin in the corner and stripped him of the puck?

I also saw the games where his hitting did little beneficial. And the game where he scored on his own goal. One good play here or there does not mean he's a good player.

You will be hard pressed to find people here that agree with those signings.

That's kind of the point. Management has a history of questionable signings of players they like the intangibles of. IMO, Borowiecki falls more into that category based on what's available now.


Just because people do not agree with you or your high and mighty "blogging community" doesn't mean we are drinking the "kool aid."

You are bordering on insulting people. Continue down that road and you will have to stick to the blogging community because you will not be welcomed here.

You're right, that was crass of me. But I do tend to stick more to reading the blogging community, as, like I said, they're the best source for analysis and news on the Sens. Just my opinion though.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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Again, hard work is great, but pointless if you can't play the game at a high enough level. Otherwise, all the hard work basically becomes aimlessly flailing around.

As for the Sens brass, they also saw fit to give Phillips, a player close to washing out if he hasn't already, a 2 year extension worth $2.5 million per season. They also gave Greening an extension of $2.65 million per season based on an inflated rookie year where he road on Jason Spezza's coattails. So forgive me for not thinking Sens management is lacking in player evaluation at times. They sometimes seem to get enamoured with intangibles and personality to the point they ignore other things.

Meanwhile, I suppose some here will just happily drink the kool aid and justify questionable at best moves. :shakehead

The bold is factually inaccurate.

Greening signed his extension after the lockout shortened season in which Spezza only played 5 games. He was actually pretty close to the same production he had playing with Spezza on the top line which is great considering he did it from the third line.

This past season was tough for Greening, and hopefully he turns it around, but his contract wasn't based solely on his performance with Spezza.
 

FlyingJ

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Feb 25, 2014
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The bold is factually inaccurate.

Greening signed his extension after the lockout shortened season in which Spezza only played 5 games. He was actually pretty close to the same production he had playing with Spezza on the top line which is great considering he did it from the third line.

This past season was tough for Greening, and hopefully he turns it around, but his contract wasn't based solely on his performance with Spezza.

The rookie year undoubtedly played the biggest part in the negotiation, since it made him look like potentially more than a bottom 6 player. Despite similar production, his lockout shortened season was nothing to write home about either (though he did still look like a decent 3rd liner), with the exception of his OT goal against the Pens in the playoffs. Didn't he get scratched one game because MacLean was frustrated with his inconsistent production?
 

Cosmix

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The AHL is so different from the NHL. Down there, guys can make a solid career having only 1 or 2 things they do well. Like hitting and fighting. As for his performance in the NHL this year, the 13 games he played? Yes, that is a damn small sample size to warrant giving a guy a 3 year one-way extension. He also played very sheltered minutes despite starting more in the defensive zone. He threw a lot of hits, but he was not some shutdown force.

Fact is, he has yet to show he's an everyday NHLer. Yet now some people here are saying Wiercioch is hardly more proven than Borowiecki? Sigh, only on HF Boards would people be so enamoured with a 25 year old prospect for his hits, fighting, and that he's a local kid. Meanwhile, much of the blogging community, the only group worth following for Sens news and analysis given the quality of the Sun and much of the Citizen, are largely scratching their heads over this move. And for good reason: it makes little to no sense.

I agree that signing this deal now was not necessary. The single benefit I see is a player who competes physically and is not reticent about the rough stuff. Kassian could not play the game and is now gone, as he should be. Boro can play the game at a 6 to 7 level. Some of our defensemen need to step up their physical game now that Boro is here and willing to do the physical work required, or they will be replaced by him. Good competition for the 6-7 spot. But trade clouds appear to be forming. :)
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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The rookie year undoubtedly played the biggest part in the negotiation, since it made him look like potentially more than a bottom 6 player. Despite similar production, his lockout shortened season was nothing to write home about either (though he did still look like a decent 3rd liner), with the exception of his OT goal against the Pens in the playoffs. Didn't he get scratched one game because MacLean was frustrated with his inconsistent production?

He signed a bottom six $ contract after providing bottom 6 numbers. I don't see the problem other than he failed to live up to that afterwards.
 

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