Bo "the hero Vancouver deserves" Horvat - Part IV

[me2]

Horvat is getting the "ruin the player" treatment that people like to complain about when it happens to other teams prospects.

 

[IntangiBo]

Horvat is getting the "ruin the player" treatment that people like to complain about when it happens to other teams prospects.

What? A feel for the NHL and see if he should stay.

 

[biturbo19]

I understand the thinking, I just don't agree with it. For 5 years this team made developing their own young talent a low priority while it attempted to maximize it's cup window. Fair enough and made sense at the time. But eventually this team needs to begin grooming its next generation of players and I think it makes more sense to do so in a competitive/winning environment (i.e. this season) than delaying it until we are desperate for our young kids to fill significant roles in the NHL. Other teams manage to groom young talent AND compete for the cup at the same time, I don't understand why with this team it always seems to be viewed as one or the other only. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Everyone as fans, wants to see Horvat given a big opportunity to "sink or swim". But from a team perspective, and the coaching staff's situation...Horvat looking "decent to good" most nights in his limited minutes is all well and good, but has he looked better than someone like Richardson at this point in time? I think you'd be pretty hard-pressed to make that argument.

I do hope/think that last game was a bit of an anomaly though. Willie D had his reasons for not playing that line in the 2nd half of the game, and there's some wisdom to it. But it doesn't benefit Horvat at all, nor does it really give us a great read on where he's at in his development. You don't want to throw him out there just to get him minutes either though, if he's been sitting on the bench too long and out of the feel of the game. We're talking about a player who is used to playing 20-30 minutes a night in Jrs...even just paring it down to ~10 minutes a night and staying "engaged" is going to be an adjustment for a guy like Bo. You're not necessarily going to get a great look from sporadic minutes with big spurts of sitting in between either.

It's a tough situation. Bo is looking ready to "play in the NHL", but it's still pretty up in the air how much he's really ready to "contribute". And the insistence on playing him exclusively as a Center makes it a lot more difficult to work around (though i think it's absolutely the right call).

Getting some reliable vet wingers back should allow Willie D to get Horvat's minutes back up to that ~10mins threshold where we can get a real look at him and you worry less about his season being "wasted". We'll see in the next few games.

 

[salo franchise]

Horvat is getting the "ruin the player" treatment that people like to complain about when it happens to other teams prospects.

Ridiculous.

 

[denkiteki]

I say wait to before saying if team is a cup contender or is not. If the second line keeps produceing the way it is then why get a nother top six? I didnt think Higgins could do it but he has so far this season. I think vey and kass will get going too plus all ready richy matthias and doorset are going good so i all most dont want to tutch the forwards. Goalies are set. The D could use help esp some more tough offense guys back there. I like Sbisa latley but not sure if will keep up all year

Well that'll be the argument at the deadline... rather or not we should get someone. Given its Vancouver, there will be pressure on the GM to add piece(s) as long as we are in a playoff position regardless of rather or not we need it.

We don't really need any help anywhere in our line-up. Sure it'll be great if we can upgrade or top 4 or top 6... but the cost would be quite high 'cause everyone wants to upgrade there. There isn't really a need and a new player might not even be an upgrade in the first place (better on paper does NOT mean better on the ice).

That said when it comes to Horvat's situation, i would rather we actually pick up a depth center than waste a year of Horvat's development being "injury insurance" because that's all he'll be unless:

a) He steps up his game (possible and you could argue likely given more time but you could also argue he'll cost us games while learning... question really is would WD let him play through his mistakes, WD did NOT vs. the Ducks).
b) Someone gets hurt long term before Horvat's trial (thus it really becomes trial via fire and he will get an extended look)

Again i'm not expecting him to score a PPG or even .5 PPG but even a 4th liner needs to chip in the odd point. Horvat has not scored in either the NHL or AHL yet and that needs to change if you want to argue he deserves a spot as a 19 year old.

For comparison sake, Draisaitl has 4 points in 16 games (.25 PPG). Nothing amazing but you would expect Horvat to at least contribute around that much to warrant us keeping him around (yes different type of player but we are also a deeper team). Basically if Horvat continues to play solid and says scores 2-3 points in the next 4 games, then i would be on board with him getting an extended look pass 9 games... otherwise, he should prep for WJC.

Horvat has had 0 points in 10 games now i believe (5 Utica and 5 with us). For comparison sake (within the team), even Sestito has had 1 point in 2 games. The next lowest total (for forwards) is ZK with 4 points. Of course they played more games than Horvat and like i said, i'm not expecting a ton but at least .25 PPG isn't asking for a lot.

Of course one thing going against Horvat is ice time and it'll continue to be the case until we get healthy. Its only neutral to play your 4th line less when the entire 4th line are more or less 1st year players/replacement players. Given the number of days off and Defazio being sent down, that should be remedied over the next few games. Its Horvat's last chance (at least in my books) to prove he deserves to stick this year. Funny thing is i thought Ottawa might have been Horvat's best game (minus in the circle). The line was very good when Vey was on it, wasn't as good after he and Jensen switched spots. Hopefully when we get healthy, we'll see Horvat and Vey play an entire game together and see what they can do together.

As far as those saying its just 1 mistake (ANA), that's the only big mistakes. Horvat has made many smaller mistakes such as passing the puck to the wrong place, failure to clear the zone, etc. They aren't big but if you pay attention to the details, you'll notice he makes his fair share of mistakes. Most of those mistakes are easy to correct however and should be corrected over time (basically rookie mistakes). Also most of the time it won't cost the team and its not like Vets don't make mistakes either.

 

[Pip]

Not entirely fair to combine the AHL + NHL games imo.

If he scored a goal with Utica does it impact anything at all?

 

[CanaFan]

Everyone as fans, wants to see Horvat given a big opportunity to "sink or swim". But from a team perspective, and the coaching staff's situation...Horvat looking "decent to good" most nights in his limited minutes is all well and good, but has he looked better than someone like Richardson at this point in time? I think you'd be pretty hard-pressed to make that argument.

I do hope/think that last game was a bit of an anomaly though. Willie D had his reasons for not playing that line in the 2nd half of the game, and there's some wisdom to it. But it doesn't benefit Horvat at all, nor does it really give us a great read on where he's at in his development. You don't want to throw him out there just to get him minutes either though, if he's been sitting on the bench too long and out of the feel of the game. We're talking about a player who is used to playing 20-30 minutes a night in Jrs...even just paring it down to ~10 minutes a night and staying "engaged" is going to be an adjustment for a guy like Bo. You're not necessarily going to get a great look from sporadic minutes with big spurts of sitting in between either.

It's a tough situation. Bo is looking ready to "play in the NHL", but it's still pretty up in the air how much he's really ready to "contribute". And the insistence on playing him exclusively as a Center makes it a lot more difficult to work around (though i think it's absolutely the right call).

Getting some reliable vet wingers back should allow Willie D to get Horvat's minutes back up to that ~10mins threshold where we can get a real look at him and you worry less about his season being "wasted". We'll see in the next few games.

Don't disagree with anything here, my complaint is more one of this team's "philosophy" regarding young players the last few years (and I realize it is two totally different management teams). I believe team's should give developing young talent higher priority than we've seen in Vancouver. Talent succession isn't something you should just do when you are forced to, otherwise you get Edmonton-like scenarios. Bo may not be an upgrade on Brad Richardson TODAY but he looks like he could be near-replacement level now and also offer a higher ceiling (as he develops) in the next 2-3 years. i believe we'd be in a similar position if WD played Bo 8-10 minutes instead of throttling him back to just 3-4 AND we'd be building our future as well. While being tops in the NHL for the moment is great and all, I've seen how much a PT means in June and it shouldn't suddenly take all of the focus away from the need to continue to develop and utilize our homegrown talent.

Obviously WD disagrees with me and I'm not saying I know better than an NHL coach, but I watched 5 years of AV do the same thing with kids like Grabner, Hodgson, and Kassian and lo and behold we spent the whole summer freaking out because our team had no meaningful talent under 28 years of age. I'd like us to not lose sight of that even as we push for playoffs this year.

 

[Wilch]

Bo Horvat isn't the only guy who's been handled improperly.

Kassian isn't getting the minutes and PP time he earned.

 

[Tinhorn1]

Don't disagree with anything here, my complaint is more one of this team's "philosophy" regarding young players the last few years (and I realize it is two totally different management teams). I believe team's should give developing young talent higher priority than we've seen in Vancouver. Talent succession isn't something you should just do when you are forced to, otherwise you get Edmonton-like scenarios. Bo may not be an upgrade on Brad Richardson TODAY but he looks like he could be near-replacement level now and also offer a higher ceiling (as he develops) in the next 2-3 years. i believe we'd be in a similar position if WD played Bo 8-10 minutes instead of throttling him back to just 3-4 AND we'd be building our future as well. While being tops in the NHL for the moment is great and all, I've seen how much a PT means in June and it shouldn't suddenly take all of the focus away from the need to continue to develop and utilize our homegrown talent.

Obviously WD disagrees with me and I'm not saying I know better than an NHL coach, but I watched 5 years of AV do the same thing with kids like Grabner, Hodgson, and Kassian and lo and behold we spent the whole summer freaking out because our team had no meaningful talent under 28 years of age. I'd like us to not lose sight of that even as we push for playoffs this year.

I think AV did a fine job of bringing along the youth. Grabner played meaningful games before being shipped off. How about Raymond, Hansen, Burrows, Edler, Tanev? I'm positive I'm forgetting more. The guy played frickin' Corrado in the playoffs. Remember his old saying, "Talent has no age"?

Kassian, no, but the Kassian of that year wasn't the Kassian of last year. Even Hodgson got good developmental minutes in the year he was shipped out-- just not the kind of minutes he was obviously looking for.

Also, for all his faults, Torts seemed willing to throw a kid into the thick of things, Kassian aside. Jensen was launched directly onto the top line.

Ironically (and it's still very early), of the three, Willie D seems to defer the most to the veterans on the team and to distrust the young players. I mean, what is going on with that second powerplay unit? Does it exist just to keep the veterans happy, or what? I hope that doesn't continue, as it's the opposite of what the franchise needs, imo.

 

[CanaFan]

I think AV did a fine job of bringing along the youth. Grabner played meaningful games before being shipped off. How about Raymond, Hansen, Burrows, Edler, Tanev? I'm positive I'm forgetting more. The guy played frickin' Corrado in the playoffs. Remember his old saying, "Talent has no age"?

Kassian, no, but the Kassian of that year wasn't the Kassian of last year. Even Hodgson got good developmental minutes in the year he was shipped out-- just not the kind of minutes he was obviously looking for.

Also, for all his faults, Torts seemed willing to throw a kid into the thick of things, Kassian aside. Jensen was launched directly onto the top line.

Ironically (and it's still very early), of the three, Willie D seems to defer the most to the veterans on the team and to distrust the young players. I mean, what is going on with that second powerplay unit? Does it exist just to keep the veterans happy, or what? I hope that doesn't continue, as it's the opposite of what the franchise needs, imo.

Somewhat fair, but the 2007-08 team where Raymond and Edler played their rookie seasons was a team in flux and with massive cap challenges, so I don't know how much was dictated from above by Nonis who seemed at least somewhat interested in rebuilding the team from the WCE days. Burrows was also 25 when he played his first full season in AV's first year so hardly a kid in the same vein as the others.

However whether it was AV or Gillis driving the bus on those personal decisions, post-2008 there didn't seem to be much of an emphasis on getting kids in the lineup, with Tanev the one notable exception. Grabner was deemed expendable, Kassian struggled to get minutes, and Hodgson only played significant minutes once Gillis concocted his plan to raise his stock for trade purposes. The trading of their 2010 first, second, and third as well as 2013 second also showed a low priority for acquiring young talent vs "winning now".

And like I said in my earlier post, that all made sense for a team that was a credible contender for the cup. I just don't think we should be setting our priorities similarly anymore, despite what our record may have people feeling/believing.

 

[Tinhorn1]

Somewhat fair, but the 2007-08 team where Raymond and Edler played their rookie seasons was a team in flux and with massive cap challenges, so I don't know how much was dictated from above by Nonis who seemed at least somewhat interested in rebuilding the team from the WCE days. Burrows was also 25 when he played his first full season in AV's first year so hardly a kid in the same vein as the others.

However whether it was AV or Gillis driving the bus on those personal decisions, post-2008 there didn't seem to be much of an emphasis on getting kids in the lineup, with Tanev the one notable exception. Grabner was deemed expendable, Kassian struggled to get minutes, and Hodgson only played significant minutes once Gillis concocted his plan to raise his stock for trade purposes. The trading of their 2010 first, second, and third as well as 2013 second also showed a low priority for acquiring young talent vs "winning now".

And like I said in my earlier post, that all made sense for a team that was a credible contender for the cup. I just don't think we should be setting our priorities similarly anymore, despite what our record may have people feeling/believing.

Fair enough, and I agree completely with this final point.

 

[Powder]

For those referring to his lack of point totals in 5 NHL games, one thing I would add is that Horvat has essentially played 3 games, not 5, based on his ice time (if an average night is to be considered 15 minutes per night). If he continues to receive 5-8 minutes a night, I don't expect much at all, if anything from him offensively. Not only is he given half/a third of the ice time than most of his other teammates, but it also doesn't allow him to get into a groove and get into the game.

What a waste of a 9-game tryout if this continues.

 

[denkiteki]

Not entirely fair to combine the AHL + NHL games imo.

If he scored a goal with Utica does it impact anything at all?

It does impact somewhat as Utica is part of his try-out period. When you have a limited time to determine rather or not someone is ready, you got to take in everything including the pre-season.

The point is Horvat has not scored in any professional league yet. I'm not saying he is a blackhole offensively but at the end of the day, results is what matters and Horvat has not provided that yet outside of Jr. and if he doesn't, its hard to argue he has "earned" a NHL spot this year. More so when we are relatively deep with 3rd and 4th liners that have chipped in every so often. Like i said, if he scores 2 or 3 points in the next 4 games, he would "pass" the try-out for me. I'm sure WD has his list of things required for Horvat to "make the team" and part of that probably includes a bit of scoring or at least create a lot more scoring chances than he has (against the Sens, Horvat played well but a lot of the scoring chances were really created by Vey).

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

The last two games Horvat's been a victim of his linemates as much as anything else. that line doesn't have a chance when its got Defazio and Jensen on it. With Kassian back in the lineup the 4th line will once again become respectable.

 

[Siludin]

If McDavid is still out for the World Jrs (which I doubt he will be), Horvat could see some significant ice time if he is sent back. Something to pay attention to.

 

[biturbo19]

If McDavid is still out for the World Jrs (which I doubt he will be), Horvat could see some significant ice time if he is sent back. Something to pay attention to.

If Horvat ends up with the WJC team, he'll see significant ice time regardless of whether McDavid is there or not. He'd be the horse they lean on defensively and on important faceoffs, without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[Uhmkay]

I think the Canucks are going to send Horvat to the World Jrs regardless of if he's past his 9 games or not. As the Canucks get healthy again, it's an easy fix to keep everyone playing, and give Horvat the minutes he needs against good competition. It's also a good experience. Many other top stars have played in the World Jr's and said afterwards how much the experience helped them later on.

I also don't think the Canucks are too worried about burning a year by going past 9 games, but are more concerned about burning a year towards his UFA which is the 39 game mark. By sending him to the World Jrs, the Canucks would have about 44 games left in their season. There are about 9 games left before the Canucks would need to release Horvat to Selection Camp. I think there is a very good chance that Horvat only plays in 4 of those games, where he's only then played in 9 games total. He then goes to the World Jr's. After World Jrs, the Canucks can still keep him or send him back. If they determine that going back is what's best for him, so be it. If they keep him, then they can make up their mind again closer to the 39 game mark, if he even plays that many in total. The Canucks could play him 30 of the remaining 39 games and not worry about losing a year towards his UFA status.

If we have everyone back and healthy by early December, look for Horvat to head to the World Jrs rather than sit out every second game or only play 8-10 minutes a night.

 

[iFan]

What? A feel for the NHL and see if he should stay.

Being benched for 2 periods when he's looked good.... Not much developing happening there.

 

[iFan]

The last two games Horvat's been a victim of his linemates as much as anything else. that line doesn't have a chance when its got Defazio and Jensen on it. With Kassian back in the lineup the 4th line will once again become respectable.

I just don't accept that excuse when Willie D benched Horvat for pretty much 2 periods, there's no need for that and this was against the Sens. Willie could've handle this much better but there's no good reason to have benched Horvat after the 1st, that line wasn't hurting the team. I'm kinda surprised to see you defending it.

 

[Reign Nateo]

I don't see how he stays up past 9 games at this rate. But people need to take a long-term approach. We don't need Horvat right now and Desjardins' job is to win hockey games. The mandate from the team is likely to get him a taste of the NHL life and send him back to London hungry (their still in good shape for a Memorial Cup run), then play in the WJC. Then he comes into camp full blast next year at 20. It's not a bad plan really.

 

[iFan]

I don't see how he stays up past 9 games at this rate. But people need to take a long-term approach. We don't need Horvat right now and Desjardins' job is to win hockey games. The mandate from the team is likely to get him a taste of the NHL life and send him back to London hungry (their still in good shape for a Memorial Cup run), then play in the WJC. Then he comes into camp full blast next year at 20. It's not a bad plan really.

Well Linden and Bennng said they wanted young players to make the team and they'd make room, Horvats made the case that he's ready soooo....

 

[denkiteki]

Well Linden and Bennng said they wanted young players to make the team and they'd make room, Horvats made the case that he's ready soooo....

How is he so ready? Defensively, he isn't a liability even if he makes mistakes but he has produced 0 offensively. That isn't someone "so ready". He needs to start producing offensively if you want to make a case for him making the team.

WD has not even used him as a face off specialist, which really is all he is right now. That shows how much faith WD has with Horvat right now. It'll take time for Horvat to earn WD's trust... time that he does not have.

As far as Benning/Linden... what they say and what they do have been popular opposite. Didn't they also say they wanted to carry 3 goalies this year then a few days later Markstrom was on waivers?

Also they did give a young player a spot... his name happens to be Linden Vey. Horvat is in a situation where if he isn't here, we get control of him for 1 more season than if he plays 39+ games this season. That's something that does NOT help his chance to be here. He doesn't need to be "similar" to other bottom 6 forwards but rather he needs to bring MORE to the table than they do. Right now, at best, Horvat is a possible sub for Richardson (not an upgrade). That makes a case for him replacing Richardson next year when Richardson is a UFA... not replacing Richardson this year.

For Horvat to earn a spot, like i said, he needs to start contributing a bit offensively and continue to improve his defensive play (which like i said before, he'll no doubt do because most of his mistakes are rookie mistakes that he'll learn from). One of the questions is in a hockey market like Vancouver, how much rope do you give a rookie to learn from their mistakes... more so when it appears like we are (surprisingly) contending. Vey seems to be given a decent amount of rope because of his offensive production. Horvat has not been given much rope because he has produced 0 offensively. Again a sign that Horvat needs to produce if he wants to stay (and i'm hoping he does... he's pretty much due considering the number of games he has gone without scoring... or even minutes wise, it must be a career high already).

 

[canuck4life16]

I do hope Willie increase his ice time to 14 mins so the other line get some rest. He should get Sean Courtier treatment

 

[denkiteki]

I do hope Willie increase his ice time to 14 mins so the other line get some rest. He should get Sean Courtier treatment

Problem is his wingers or lack of experience at his wings. For some reason he also isn't on the PK or even on the ice in defensive situation (where he's suppose to excel). He's getting the Hodgson treatment it seems.

 

[tantalum]

Horvat is getting the "ruin the player" treatment that people like to complain about when it happens to other teams prospects.

NOt at all. At least not in my view. What ruins a prospect is putting him into a situation he can't handle, shift in and shift out, game in and game out. It's what the Oilers did and continue to do. That isn't what is happening with Horvat. He's being protected as you should do. So for Horvat the question is what is better....7-9 minutes in the NHL or 20+ minutes in the OHL?

I think what they are doing is just fine. He's getting a taste of NHL action and while he might not be ready for full time duty this exposure will help him immeasurably. He now knows from first hand experience what he specifically needs to work on to make the NHL for good.

And honestly, I'm still not convinced he won't stick.