Bo "the hero Vancouver deserves" Horvat - Part IV

[Powder]

I agree with most posters saying that he should be sent down just because of the fact that he's not getting ice time. There is no reason, in my mind, why Horvat should have been limited in ice time tonight. It's Ottawa and that whole line had some good shifts when they played.

Lazar, a player in a very similar situation, got almost 14 minutes tonight. Ice-time-wise, he's more than a 4th liner, but Lazar's line is the 4th line and his wingers are Stone and someone else I do not remember, but essentially they're a bunch of rookies...

Willie says he likes to roll 4 lines, yet Horvat's ice time has been dropping regularly other than the LA game, which was a throwaway. I don't know why Willie doesn't trust Horvat to have some more ice time. Right up until Horvat played, it would be extremely rare for a 4th liner got less than 10 minutes. Other than the 15 minutes one game, his ice time has been well bellow 15 miuntes.

Just a shame... I think he should stay but for sake of development, he should probably be sent down since the ice time is not there.

 

[GAT0R]

Horvat hasn't deserved more ice time. He keeps making a lot of mistakes. I'm sure he'll learn from them, but he's clearly not ready for this level yet.

 

[Wilch]

Horvat hasn't deserved more ice time. He keeps making a lot of mistakes. I'm sure he'll learn from them, but he's clearly not ready for this level yet.

A lot of mistakes?

 

[Pip]

Horvat hasn't deserved more ice time. He keeps making a lot of mistakes. I'm sure he'll learn from them, but he's clearly not ready for this level yet.

I've only seen really the one mistake, the giveaway in the Anaheim game.

Regardless, this is the same coach that gives Sbisa and Vey endless opportunities after making mistakes. I feel that he's getting a fair shake from Willie right now. If he was a liability out there, then sure, limit his minutes and then send him down. I can imagine what's going on in his mind right now, "I'm only getting 5 or 6 shifts tonight so I better not make any mistakes!"

Which would lead him to be mostly a non-factor

 

[Get North]

The reason he isn't getting ice-time is because his linemates are DeFazio and Jensen who aren't playing good enough. Horvat is playing solid but they aren't and Horvat should be scratched, call-up Lain so you're not wasting games.

 

[TheWanderer]

The reason he isn't getting ice-time is because his linemates are DeFazio and Jensen who aren't playing good enough. Horvat is playing solid but they aren't and Horvat should be scratched, call-up Lain so you're not wasting games.

Or, Horvat could replace Vey for defensive zone starts... or something. Horvat not getting ice time can't really be blamed on DeFazio or Jensen... neither of them were bad either.

 

[Pip]

The reason he isn't getting ice-time is because his linemates are DeFazio and Jensen who aren't playing good enough. Horvat is playing solid but they aren't and Horvat should be scratched, call-up Lain so you're not wasting games.

What has Defazio done wrong?

 

[Wilch]

What has Defazio done wrong?

Didn't play enough minutes.

Poor Movember effort.

Is perceived to be an inferior player because he's a call up.

 

[MS]

The reason he isn't getting ice-time is because his linemates are DeFazio and Jensen who aren't playing good enough. Horvat is playing solid but they aren't and Horvat should be scratched, call-up Lain so you're not wasting games.

Defazio looks very reliable. Hard on the puck, positionally sound. I have even less problem giving him 10-12 minutes than Horvat.

 

[Get North]

Defazio looks very reliable. Hard on the puck, positionally sound. I have even less problem giving him 10-12 minutes than Horvat.

What has Defazio done wrong?

DeFazio is usually in his own end when he is on the ice, he looks pretty slow out there aswell. He'd get burned against Ottawa's 4th line.

Or, Horvat could replace Vey for defensive zone starts... or something. Horvat not getting ice time can't really be blamed on DeFazio or Jensen... neither of them were bad either.

Jensen and DeFazio weren't really generating alot, out of most of their shifts they were just trying to get out of their own zone. 1 shift they had some possession in their own zone, otherwise they were fighting to not get scored on.

 

[alternate]

I'm not too concerned about Horvat's ice time the past couple of games. We've had 4 rookie forwards in the lineup, and big Willie has shown to be conservative at best when it comes to line shuffling on the fly.

Some coaches might have tried to get the kids a few extra shifts by spotting them in here and there. Doesn't seem to be Desjardin's MO though, so things went as expected. Disappointed that Willie didn't roll four lines--or even attempt to put together four lines he'd be comfortable rolling--but not really surprising. After all, it's about winning THIS game, right.

I wouldn't send Horvat back basing on what we've seen so far. Seems like he belongs, and I expect he'll see more ice time when we have less regulars out of the line up.

 

[TheBleedingEdge]

Horvat at 19 is very impressive. I know many people here want fat dangles and top cheds but if you watch what he is doing in the face off dot and defensively at the NHL level you should be happy.

He also has size and is powerful on the boards, give him a few years and a good scoring winger or two. Personally I like what I see so far.

 

[denkiteki]

Positives so far:

28 - 24 in the circle (54% is respectable but of course the sample size is small)
Shows good hockey IQ/making smart plays most of the time
Not a liability defensively

Negatives

- Makes "Jr" mistakes, i.e. vs. the Ducks. Basically moves that would work in Jr. but won't in the NHL. Nothing he can do to fix this except play more in the NHL but its a liability for him regardless.
- No points... basically no results yet. Its not the most important part of his game but if he wants to play in the NHL, he needs to chip in every so often.
- Our regulars have all been good thing year and all injuries don't seem to be long term. Wasting a year on him just as injury insurance is NOT good asset management. Jensen can serve that role pretty well too. Don't forget if we add anyone else at the deadline it pushes Horvat farther down the depth chart.

Basically Horvat looks like a lock for his 9 games here. I doubt he'll get more than 9 unless he starts producing in his final 4. If he starts producing, then you can make a case of him playing 9 - 39 games (burn a year of ELC but NOT a year of RFA status).

 

[JuniorNelson]

Horvat is not making more mistakes than Kassian did.

 

[Lemmiwinks]

I think he's here to stay no matter hwat, we'll always have someone injured 9 games is irrelavant

Is that you, Hank Hill?

I agree though, he'll stick this year. I think we're always going to have at least one forward injured; it's the way most teams have it (unlike the freaking Kings who always manage to stay healthy all year and even through the playoffs).

 

[biturbo19]

I've only seen really the one mistake, the giveaway in the Anaheim game.

Regardless, this is the same coach that gives Sbisa and Vey endless opportunities after making mistakes. I feel that he's getting a fair shake from Willie right now. If he was a liability out there, then sure, limit his minutes and then send him down. I can imagine what's going on in his mind right now, "I'm only getting 5 or 6 shifts tonight so I better not make any mistakes!"

Which would lead him to be mostly a non-factor

If you have only seen one mistake by Horvat, you have not been watching closely enough.

Mistakes happen when players do not have the puck on their stick too. Some mistakes are worse than others, some end up in the back of the net, some do not. Sometimes the difference between the two is luck, or the performance of others around them.

Horvat has been far from flawless.

He's been very good defensively. Far and above what you would typically expect from a 19 year old rookie playing his very first games. But he's still a long ways from making only "1 mistake". That just happened to be the glaring error he made with the puck on his stick...and in the grand scheme of things, that's not even that big of a deal. That kind of thing happens, even to the most savvy of defensively responsible players. You can go back and find a near identical play on the tape of any Selke winner you wish.

I've been pretty impressed with what Horvat has done so far. I thought in the Anaheim game, it was probably the first time he looked genuinely behind the play and in tough to keep up with the pace. The Sens game, he hardly played enough to get a good read on really.

I understand why Willie D played him as little as he did, and it makes some sense. Once you've got a guy like Horvat out of rhythm, as a guy who is used to playing a ton of minutes every night in Jrs...it's unfair to just throw them out there for 1 or 2 shifts late in the game and expect him to succeed. If he's not going to play a regular shift through the whole game, you can't just send him out late in a close game for a few token shifts to get his minutes up a bit...it's not fair, and he's probably going to make mistakes.

The issue with that though...is why he's not playing a regular shift in the first place. Whether i think he's capable of doing so or not...if the coaching staff aren't going to be comfortable with Horvat playing a regular shift, and are worried that he's going to be a matchup liability and thusly staple him to the bench for half a game, resulting in less than 10 mins a night of icetime...you've gotta send him back to Juniors. You can't have a 19 year old player around playing ~6 mins a night in the NHL and spending the last half of the game effectively eating popcorn on the sidelines. Other coaches are going to go after that matchup and challenge Horvat...if Willie D isn't willing to concede those matches at times and let Bo pull his own weight, there's no reason to have him on this team right now.

 

[Pip]

I don't think he's been perfect, but people are pointing to that mistake for the reason he's not trusted and overall I think he's played well enough to be given more minutes. Who knows if he can handle those minutes, but that's what these 9 games are supposed to tell us. Mistakes happen with young players, a guy like Vey has made them all season. As you pointed out, the issue is that he's not getting regular shifts. I understand with the callups it can be difficult, but it's such a limited tryout and these games are essentially a waste since you don't get a read on him at all.

 

[biturbo19]

I don't think he's been perfect, but people are pointing to that mistake for the reason he's not trusted and overall I think he's played well enough to be given more minutes. Who knows if he can handle those minutes, but that's what these 9 games are supposed to tell us. Mistakes happen with young players, a guy like Vey has made them all season. As you pointed out, the issue is that he's not getting regular shifts. I understand with the callups it can be difficult, but it's such a limited tryout and these games are essentially a waste since you don't get a read on him at all.

Completely agree. With the 9 game countdown ticking away on Horvat, i'd much prefer to see if he can sink or swim (to a reasonable extent). But when it comes to close games, the ultimate mandate of "win games", and the call-ups complicating things...it's a tall order to get it all right at this point.

As much as i wish Willie D could keep Horvat above that 10 mins mark so we can really see what we've got and if he's a guy we're keeping or not...i do understand the complications in making that happen if you don't trust his wingers. And he still hasn't shown more than a guy like Brad Richardson to the extent of justifying him taking Richie's spot on the "3rd line" right now.

Difficult juggling act. I'd like to see more Bo though. Especially at home where you can control the matchups a bit more.

 

[Pip]

Agreed that Willie isn't in an easy spot. Essentially 3 new players on the roster, with two tight games.

Late in the game, when it's close, then totally play the players you know well and can trust, but Horvat's night was done after the first period essentially which is what bugs me so much. It will be incredibly difficult for Horvat earn his trust in such limited minutes.

Of course I'm biased to an extent because I want to see him succeed, but we aren't able to see if he can or not. Who knows when we'll be completely healthy again so we can run 4 lines again with no callups. Hopefully the break before Edmonton helps.

 

[turkulad]

Positives so far:

28 - 24 in the circle (54% is respectable but of course the sample size is small)
Shows good hockey IQ/making smart plays most of the time
Not a liability defensively

Negatives

- Makes "Jr" mistakes, i.e. vs. the Ducks. Basically moves that would work in Jr. but won't in the NHL. Nothing he can do to fix this except play more in the NHL but its a liability for him regardless.
- No points... basically no results yet. Its not the most important part of his game but if he wants to play in the NHL, he needs to chip in every so often.
- Our regulars have all been good thing year and all injuries don't seem to be long term. Wasting a year on him just as injury insurance is NOT good asset management. Jensen can serve that role pretty well too. Don't forget if we add anyone else at the deadline it pushes Horvat farther down the depth chart.

Basically Horvat looks like a lock for his 9 games here. I doubt he'll get more than 9 unless he starts producing in his final 4. If he starts producing, then you can make a case of him playing 9 - 39 games (burn a year of ELC but NOT a year of RFA status).

Excellent analysis, agree on all points made. This is why I'm on the "send him down after the 9" boat.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The issue with that though...is why he's not playing a regular shift in the first place. Whether i think he's capable of doing so or not...if the coaching staff aren't going to be comfortable with Horvat playing a regular shift, and are worried that he's going to be a matchup liability and thusly staple him to the bench for half a game, resulting in less than 10 mins a night of icetime...you've gotta send him back to Juniors. You can't have a 19 year old player around playing ~6 mins a night in the NHL and spending the last half of the game effectively eating popcorn on the sidelines. Other coaches are going to go after that matchup and challenge Horvat...if Willie D isn't willing to concede those matches at times and let Bo pull his own weight, there's no reason to have him on this team right now.

Yes, that's essentially the rationale. If he's going to be benched or not trusted with NHL match-ups, then he needs to be sent down. It's not fair to him and it puts the other 3 lines under more pressure. Tiring them out.

I would really hate it if they burned a year off his ELC given his current utility. Send him down.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I don't think the problem is so much lack of trust of Horvat's game but that the injuries have forced two other NHL rookies of inferior pedigree and expectations onto Horvat's line.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

I'm still not sure who should sit once everyone is healthy so that Horvat can stay in the lineup...

 

[PhilMick]

I'm still not sure who should sit once everyone is healthy so that Horvat can stay in the lineup...

Whoever has made the most recent mistake. That's the key to success, everyone walking on eggshells because they know their next mistake could be their last

 

[vanuck]

kid ain't ready. he made some nice offensive plays early but he's a liability overall. this is a stanley cup caiber team, can't have young plugs like horvat in the lineup in june. he's a year or so away.

Not sure if serious.