Blues Trade Proposals Part XXI

[Spektre]

Shatty + Malkin for me.

I've seen Star Wars 3 times. The OmniMax 3D is definitely worth it. It also just became available on my Android box today via Kodi.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

I was lucky, there isn't as many people in Hawaii, so it was pretty empty when I went.

Just got back from seeing it in IL (missed the game). It was great, and we should have a "Beware Spoilers" thread to discuss it.

We need to keep all of our defensemen and focus on a scoring winger instead. We'll be fine without that true 1C - at least until we get to next off season. I still think Gunnarsson+Pick+Prospects will get the job done for him if he gets traded.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

That made my day.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

Just got back from seeing it in IL (missed the game). It was great, and we should have a "Beware Spoilers" thread to discuss it.

We need to keep all of our defensemen and focus on a scoring winger instead. We'll be fine without that true 1C - at least until we get to next off season. I still think Gunnarsson+Pick+Prospects will get the job done for him if he gets traded.

...wut

 

[PerryTurnbullfan]

I guess I view our chances of post season success as a wash with Johansen/Shattenkirk. We have a better chance with Pietrangelo and Parayko picking up Shattenkirk's load, which both have shown to do. Pietrangelo did it last year and Parayko did it this year. .

When did this happen? Not this year. Not last year. Neither can bring the offense like Shatty or handle the PP. He was #2 in the NHL in offensive production. That isn't replaceable.

 

[Dbrownss]

When did this happen? Not this year. Not last year. Neither can bring the offense like Shatty or handle the PP. He was #2 in the NHL in offensive production. That isn't replaceable.

Last year when Shattenkirk went down, Pietrangelo did an adequate job in picking the offense from the back end. This year when Shattenkirk was out, Parayko stepped in and contributed at a good pace. No one can replace Shattenkirk completely, but those 2 can do the job well enough IF Shattenkirk was traded for a 1C. You can also assume the new 1C would contribute to that void also

 

[Celtic Note]

Last year when Shattenkirk went down, Pietrangelo did an adequate job in picking the offense from the back end. This year when Shattenkirk was out, Parayko stepped in and contributed at a good pace. No one can replace Shattenkirk completely, but those 2 can do the job well enough IF Shattenkirk was traded for a 1C. You can also assume the new 1C would contribute to that void also

But the question remains...will the center help us improve in the playoffs at the expense of Shattenkirk? That seems pretty lateral at best for the guys we are talking about.

 

[BluesTraveller]

I have 0 confidence in RyJo picking up any slack in the postseason. He is about as unproven as you can get with only 6 postseason NHL games.

 

[Dbrownss]

But the question remains...will the center help us improve in the playoffs at the expense of Shattenkirk? That seems pretty lateral at best for the guys we are talking about.

That's what I was getting at. It most likely will be a wash between the 2. Now though, we have Parayko who can step up as opposed to relying on Casper and 1 goal a series Backes.

I have 0 confidence in RyJo picking up any slack in the postseason. He is about as unproven as you can get with only 6 postseason NHL games.

6pts in 6 games? I mean....there's no guarentee it'll continue, but that's just silly

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

...wut

It's still not for sure that RyJo will be traded, so we need to focus on getting a scoring winger. I think we should keep all of our defensemen for the playoffs if possible, but of course if RyJo is available and the ask is Gunnar+picks+prospects, of course we do that. I think that will be close to his value even if we're not the ones to acquire him.

 

[BluesTraveller]

6pts in 6 games? I mean....there's no guarentee, but that's just silly

Too small of a sample size. I am admittedly biased, because I want nothing to do with RyJo.

 

[Dbrownss]

Too small of a sample size. I am admittedly biased, because I want nothing to do with RyJo.

Tarasenko has a 13 game sample size...yet we bank on it. There definent red flags with RyJo, but with our options of RNH, RyJo and....a prospect. I'll take RyJo. Now I'm not taking Shattenkirk for granted....but look where Nashvilles Uber defense is getting them. You need upfront scoring.

 

[BluesTraveller]

We do need more scoring up front, without a doubt

 

[Meatball]

Assuming we trade a Shattenkirk package for Johansen (and believe me, the thought hurts), your depth down the middle is unreal:

Steen-Johansen-Tarasenko
Schwartz-Stastny-Jaskin
Berglund-Backes-Fabbri
Paajarvi/Ott-Brodziak-Reaves/Upshall

The top line needs no explanation. Three REALLY good shots.
The second line is basically an upgraded version of the Fabbri-Lehtera-Jaskin line, same concept. The third line balances out pretty well with Fabbri's speed and skill, a (hopefully) improved Berglund scoring at the 20g pace and Backes can still do his thing as a shut down center, further bolstered by Berglund's defensive play.

As for the 4th line, I like the idea of a lot of speed to change the pace, so my preference is (can't believe I'm saying this) Paajarvi-Brodziak-Upshall. Of course, it depends on the opponent, but you can play the right combination depending.

Overall with the forwards, you can mix and match the wingers you want, but that center depth is legit and all three are right where they belong.

As for the defense...

Jbo-Petro
Gunnarson-Parayko
Edmundson/Lindbohm-Bortuzzo

Yes...we give up a ton of offense from the D, but is the drop off really THAT bad all things considered? You still have one of the best defensive corps in the league with a MUCH better, deeper and (dare I say elite?)forward group.

What it comes down to is having a top five defensive corps with a middling forward group vs. having a top five forward group with a still top ten quality defense. I'll take that trade-off.

Shattenkirk is a GREAT player, but we really are a better team, top to bottom, with a #1 center. Overall, I've warmed up to the idea of parting with him for a legit top center. We've done the same thing for years and it hasn't worked (elite offense from the defense, solid to mediocre forward groups), it's time to take a risk and find another way.

 

[medkit]

How do you not see the drop off from Shattenkirk to Bortuzzo as a big drop off? That's a huge drop in offense. Shattenkirk has been the most productive defender in the NHL on a P/60 basis. Bortuzzo is a plug from an offensive point of view. It doesn't get more stark than that.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

How do you not see the drop off from Shattenkirk to Bortuzzo as a big drop off? That's a huge drop in offense. Shattenkirk has been the most productive defender in the NHL on a P/60 basis. Bortuzzo is a plug from an offensive point of view. It doesn't get more stark than that.

There has to be a way to keep Shattenkirk and get an offensive upgrade. The easiest way is to acquire Eriksson.

I still think if Shattenkirk was our offer to CBJ, RyJo would already be a Blue. There's a reason we aren't offering him - and I think that's because he's worth a lot less league-wide right now.

 

[Vladdy the Impaler]

Do you take the greater offensive upside from the forward group or do you take the greater offensive upside from the defensive group. To me, that is what it all comes down to, and honestly I would take a more potent offense with a still solid defense.

 

[PerryTurnbullfan]

Last year when Shattenkirk went down, Pietrangelo did an adequate job in picking the offense from the back end. This year when Shattenkirk was out, Parayko stepped in and contributed at a good pace. No one can replace Shattenkirk completely, but those 2 can do the job well enough IF Shattenkirk was traded for a 1C. You can also assume the new 1C would contribute to that void also

Petro didn't do an adequate job and neither did Parayko replacing Shatty. We already cannot score goals. Get rid of a defensive piece to get an offensive piece since the whole team must be playing defense other than Shatty and Tank. You have 3 guys with more than 10 goals and Shatty blew past your other defenseman in points despite missing 10 games. Sorry...don't follow your logic or the logic to trade one of the few pieces that provide offense. Trade a defenseman that isn't the only one driving your offense.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

How do you not see the drop off from Shattenkirk to Bortuzzo as a big drop off? That's a huge drop in offense. Shattenkirk has been the most productive defender in the NHL on a P/60 basis. Bortuzzo is a plug from an offensive point of view. It doesn't get more stark than that.

I feel like people have this assumption that defensemen have to be offensively productive to be good defensemen, but that's simply not true. Chris Tanev doesn't produce offense, and he's an insanely good defenseman. There are things beyond scoring that are important to look at when you evaluate a defenseman. Bortuzzo still isn't as good of a defensive defenseman as Shattenkirk (Shatty's actually better than Pietrangelo, according to the numbers), but he can hold his own. Idk, it's an important distinction to make: not all defensemen are supposed to be generating offense.

This is my issue with having Gunnarsson on a team when a) he doesn't produce all that much offense, b) he's not a very good defenseman, and c) his strengths are skills that our other top 5 already do better so he's not adding anything and he ends up being duplicative.

 

[SirPaste]

I feel like people have this assumption that defensemen have to be offensively productive to be good defensemen, but that's simply not true. Chris Tanev doesn't produce offense, and he's an insanely good defenseman. There are things beyond scoring that are important to look at when you evaluate a defenseman. Bortuzzo still isn't as good of a defensive defenseman as Shattenkirk (Shatty's actually better than Pietrangelo, according to the numbers), but he can hold his own. Idk, it's an important distinction to make: not all defensemen are supposed to be generating offense.

This is my issue with having Gunnarsson on a team when a) he doesn't produce all that much offense, b) he's not a very good defenseman, and c) his strengths are skills that our other top 5 already do better so he's not adding anything and he ends up being duplicative.

Except that Gunnarson currently is a better defenseman than all but 3 of our other dmen

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

Except that Gunnarson currently is a better defenseman than all but 3 of our other dmen

Yeah I know you feel that way, but I haven't seen you explain why yet.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Except that Gunnarson currently is a better defenseman than all but 3 of our other dmen

I would argue he's number 5, but he's still a good defenseman that is often under-rated. I'm sure management has no problem giving him minutes in the playoffs as our #2/3 LD. He's ideal to trade though because of his increased play, contract, redundancy if Parayko can play LHD, and the market need for top 4 dmen that can move up.

 

[SirPaste]

Yeah I know you feel that way, but I haven't seen you explain why yet.

It's pretty obvious if you watch the games without hating him beforehand. He makes some boneheaded passes but not any more than the other guys, if Shattys pass that led directly to Phillys short handed goal the other night had been Gunnar, Blues fans heads would have exploded. He is solid defensively in his own end and for the most part he makes good decisions and is good at moving the puck. The young guys make way more mistakes than he does but everyone looks the other way because they are rookies

Edit: and I don't even necessarily like Gunnarson, I just think it's ridiculous how much undeserved flak he gets

 

[Dbrownss]

Petro didn't do an adequate job and neither did Parayko replacing Shatty. We already cannot score goals. Get rid of a defensive piece to get an offensive piece since the whole team must be playing defense other than Shatty and Tank. You have 3 guys with more than 10 goals and Shatty blew past your other defenseman in points despite missing 10 games. Sorry...don't follow your logic or the logic to trade one of the few pieces that provide offense. Trade a defenseman that isn't the only one driving your offense.

It's a possibility that Shattenkirk leaves the Blues as a FA, regardless of what DA does. We need a 1c. Stastny is NOT a 1c, Backes may also leave as a UFA this year. As of next year our Center depth gets thin quick especially if Lehtera is a 2C/3c tweener. So for me I'll take Pietrangelo+Parayko+Johansen over Pietrangelo+Shattenkirk+Parayko. Obviously if Johansen can be had for futures package, then it's a no brainer. Johansen has an attitude problem that has a greater chance of being corrected then one simply not having the physical ability to perform at an elite level

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

It's a possibility that Shattenkirk leaves the Blues as a FA, regardless of what DA does. We need a 1c. Stastny is NOT a 1c, Backes may also leave as a UFA this year. As of next year our Center depth gets thin quick especially if Lehtera is a 2C/3c tweener. So for me I'll take Pietrangelo+Parayko+Johansen over Pietrangelo+Shattenkirk+Parayko. Obviously if Johansen can be had for futures package, then it's a no brainer. Johansen has an attitude problem that has a greater chance of being corrected then one simply not having the physical ability to perform at an elite level

There's next to no chance that Shatty walks in FA (we'd be willing to give him whatever he wanted, and he gets to remain in an environment he is comfortable in.

Especially when you compare this to the likelihood that Johansen doesn't want to re-sign here, and we aren't willing to pay him +8M, it's not a good argument.