Blues Trade Proposals - Part VII

[TheOrganist]

The fact that it's long been rumored and the day after Halak has his worst start, instead of being more open to it, the beat writer thinks just the opposite.

I'm one of the biggest Halak fans here. I don't think it's a gaping hole, but it's possible it's a hole

Yes, it's "possibly" a hole but the trade speculation isn't remotely legitimate compared to last years search for a left handed defenseman. Now that was a genuinely big issue from Day 1 of training camp and worth giving up a 1st rounder. I'm on record that I'm content with the duo we have with the team in front of them and that keeping pucks out of our net will not be a significant hurdle with the way this team is constructed Could that change? Not likely based on the Blues' dominant possession metrics and low S/A, but I suppose it's possible. But I just don't see how anyone at this current time could justify giving up another premium pick and a prospect for a position that can't be categorized as a serious concern while focusing on a player that is no guarantee to be better than what we have.

 

[Hooliganx3]

Yes, it's "possibly" a hole but the trade speculation isn't remotely legitimate compared to last years search for a left handed defenseman. Now that was a genuinely big issue from Day 1 of training camp and worth giving up a 1st rounder. I'm on record that I'm content with the duo we have with the team in front of them and that keeping pucks out of our net will not be a significant hurdle with the way this team is constructed Could that change? Not likely based on the Blues' dominant possession metrics and low S/A, but I suppose it's possible. But I just don't see how anyone at this current time could justify giving up another premium pick and a prospect for a position that can't be categorized as a serious concern while focusing on a player that is no guarantee to be better than what we have.

Well said I agree 100%.

 

[Falco Lombardi]

Whether we're talking now or the deadline isn't much difference imo. Let's face it: Nobody here is worried about getting into the playoffs. If this doesn't happen until February, so be it.

The price might change a bit, but the need will be there still (if you don't believe in Halak)

 

[Hooliganx3]

Armstrong is probably one of the most patient GM's in the league. Just because the ship has sailed now, doesn't particularly mean the ship can't come back. I think Armstrong will wait for a larger sample size of Halak before he determines whether acquiring Miller is the right course of action.

I agree Armstrong is patient. I don't think he will pay a 1st for Miller. I think he will wait it out for a much more modest price. If it doesn't happen then Buffalo is stuck with him walking after the season.

 

[Mike Liut]

Yes, it's "possibly" a hole but the trade speculation isn't remotely legitimate compared to last years search for a left handed defenseman. Now that was a genuinely big issue from Day 1 of training camp and worth giving up a 1st rounder. I'm on record that I'm content with the duo we have with the team in front of them and that keeping pucks out of our net will not be a significant hurdle with the way this team is constructed Could that change? Not likely based on the Blues' dominant possession metrics and low S/A, but I suppose it's possible. But I just don't see how anyone at this current time could justify giving up another premium pick and a prospect for a position that can't be categorized as a serious concern while focusing on a player that is no guarantee to be better than what we have.

He's much better

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

I agree Armstrong is patient. I don't think he will pay a 1st for Miller. I think he will wait it out for a much more modest price. If it doesn't happen then Buffalo is stuck with him walking after the season.

That's what no Sabres fan here seems to realize- that Miller can walk away at the end of the season and the Sabres won't get anything.

 

[BlueDream]

How can people seriously think Miller wouldn't be better than what we have? The guy is playing very good on the worst team in the entire league. Let's stop dismissing that like it's nothing. The Sabres don't know how to play defense in front of him.

He has become severely underrated. On the Blues, he would be an elite goaltender.

 

[Alklha]

Yes, it's "possibly" a hole but the trade speculation isn't remotely legitimate compared to last years search for a left handed defenseman. Now that was a genuinely big issue from Day 1 of training camp and worth giving up a 1st rounder. I'm on record that I'm content with the duo we have with the team in front of them and that keeping pucks out of our net will not be a significant hurdle with the way this team is constructed Could that change? Not likely based on the Blues' dominant possession metrics and low S/A, but I suppose it's possible. But I just don't see how anyone at this current time could justify giving up another premium pick and a prospect for a position that can't be categorized as a serious concern while focusing on a player that is no guarantee to be better than what we have.

While I'm not on the Miller bandwagon, it isn't that simple for Armstrong either.

We have Allen and nobody else for next season. If we aren't comfortable signing Halák or Elliott to an extension, then we need to look at getting someone else in. We can't let both walk and hope to pick up a starting goalie in UFA.

If he sees Miller as the answer for next season and beyond, then the fact that we might not need Miller right now isn't the point.

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

That's part of the reason I think Army will go after someone else besides Miller. We're going to need a goalie next season and beyond, not just this playoff run. Miller is 33 and may not be long term.

 

[Multimoodia]

How can people seriously think Miller wouldn't be better than what we have? The guy is playing very good on the worst team in the entire league. Let's stop dismissing that like it's nothing. The Sabres don't know how to play defense in front of him.

That is actually what gives me more pause than anything else.
Some goalies require a lot of shots to be effective and have serious difficulties with any team that allows a low number of shots. Curtis Joseph was a textbook example of this.
Some goalies are very effective in low shot environments. Brodeur, Belfour, etc. are examples there.

If Miller has to have a lot of shots against before he is effective then trading for him would be a bad maneuver.

I do not know how he has performed (if ever) in a low shot environment. If he has done well then the Blues picking him up becomes a more attractive option.

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

How can people seriously think Miller wouldn't be better than what we have? The guy is playing very good on the worst team in the entire league. Let's stop dismissing that like it's nothing. The Sabres don't know how to play defense in front of him.

He has become severely underrated. On the Blues, he would be an elite goaltender.

I agree, but credit is due to Halak too. Is it really worth giving up multiple future assets for a slight upgrade?

 

[Multimoodia]

That's part of the reason I think Army will go after someone else besides Miller. We're going to need a goalie next season and beyond, not just this playoff run. Miller is 33 and may not be long term.

Actually that might be perfect, if the Blues believe they can re-sign Miller at a reasonable contract.
Miller should be good enough long enough to get the Blues through to Allen being the primary goaltender (if the Blues believe he will be) and be able to gracefully step aside.
Playing Allen with Halak next year means Allen plays more games than does a typical backup goaltender. Playing with Miller means Allen gets something more like 20% of the starts.

 

[Alklha]

We have Allen who looks promising. Binnington and Lundström are both developing nicely in their third season since being drafted. Nobody is a sure thing, but with 3 chances I think we can be comfortable that in 4 years that 1 will be a legitimate NHL goalie.

33 isn't ancient, as long as his demands on his new deal aren't extreme then Miller his age doesn't discount him.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

Halak+STL 2nd+EDM 2nd conditional on Miller re-signing is what I expect the final deal to be with Miller at 50% salary. That said we will let Elliott walk, resign Miller to 3 years at 4.5-5 mil AAV with Allen as the backup. Miller/Allen should work as like a Luongo/Schneider for the next few years.

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

I just don't think Miller will sign for 1 to 2 years, which is all Army should give him. He shouldn't be locked up for more.

 

[Multimoodia]

I just don't think Miller will sign for 1 to 2 years, which is all Army should give him. He shouldn't be locked up for more.

That would be foolish.
3 years I would think, perhaps 4 depending upon price. If Miller wants more than that there could be an issue.

 

[ExJbeck]

Complete waste of assets to trade for Miller, given how well Halak has played. We have an elite defensive team with a better than average goalie. We are playing better offensively then basically every team we've played. I just don't see that the few amount of pucks Miller saves that Halak won't will be worth it.

 

[TheOrganist]

While I'm not on the Miller bandwagon, it isn't that simple for Armstrong either.

We have Allen and nobody else for next season. If we aren't comfortable signing Halák or Elliott to an extension, then we need to look at getting someone else in. We can't let both walk and hope to pick up a starting goalie in UFA.

If he sees Miller as the answer for next season and beyond, then the fact that we might not need Miller right now isn't the point.

Then we have a disagreement about how the Blues view the long-run landscape of the position.

A cost controlled stud is a managers wet dream. Why would the small market Blues ever commit big term and dollars to a goaltender when Allen is waiting to assume the
starters job on Day 1 of 2014-15?

This is the beauty of developing players and having a self-sustaining organization.

You think the Blues are going to trade their first rounder ever year and then sign the acquired player to a big money deal just cause they're in a win now mode? That would be ruinous. It happened one time. Perfect target at the perfect time playing the perfect position in JBo.

The goaltending situation is totally different because of Allen.

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

Complete waste of assets to trade for Miller, given how well Halak has played. We have an elite defensive team with a better than average goalie. We are playing better offensively then basically every team we've played. I just don't see that the few amount of pucks Miller saves that Halak won't will be worth it.

I agree. if we can get him cheap, say Halak, one of our two 2nds and Kurker, I'd still do that. We'd still have a 2nd and Kurker may not ever pan out. I think a trade like that is worth the slight upgrade, but not giving up a 1st or Rattie/Jaskin.

 

[Multimoodia]

I would have no issue with the Blues doing something like:

Halak
Prospect the Blues feel they can give up (Kurker or whomever)
and then a pick something like this:
Blues 2nd if they stall out in the first or second round.
Edmonton's 2nd if the Blues get to the conference finals
Blues 1st if they reach the SCF

Halak is going to either be signed by Buffalo or turned around and flipped to someone else for more picks (In particular for someone like Pittsburgh who could use a very good tournament goalie) and thus is not a throw-in like some suggest.

They idea of Miller is somewhat appealing, but I have some reservations I mentioned before concerning the change in defensive philosophies the Blues embody versus the Sabres as well as if Miller signs here or not.

Although, to comfort him I can almost guarantee the Blues would have reacted quite a bit more violently had Lucic trucked Miller here.

 

[Oberyn]

I would have no issue with the Blues doing something like:

Halak
Prospect the Blues feel they can give up (Kurker or whomever)
and then a pick something like this:
Blues 2nd if they stall out in the first or second round.
Edmonton's 2nd if the Blues get to the conference finals
Blues 1st if they reach the SCF

Halak is going to either be signed by Buffalo or turned around and flipped to someone else for more picks (In particular for someone like Pittsburgh who could use a very good tournament goalie) and thus is not a throw-in like some suggest.

They idea of Miller is somewhat appealing, but I have some reservations I mentioned before concerning the change in defensive philosophies the Blues embody versus the Sabres as well as if Miller signs here or not.

Although, to comfort him I can almost guarantee the Blues would have reacted quite a bit more violently had Lucic trucked Miller here.

I'd do this. I don't like giving up 1sts in 2 years straight, but if we win the cup then that's a tradeoff I take everyday of the week.

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

I'd do this. I don't like giving up 1sts in 2 years straight, but if we win the cup then that's a tradeoff I take everyday of the week.

I think everyone would agree, not to mention Army's success in the 2nd round of drafts.

 

[BlueDream]

I agree, but credit is due to Halak too. Is it really worth giving up multiple future assets for a slight upgrade?

I think we can start taking the word 'slight' out. It's an upgrade. Not an absolutely monsterous upgrade, but it doesn't need to be.

 

[Alklha]

Then we have a disagreement about how the Blues view the long-run landscape of the position.

A cost controlled stud is a managers wet dream. Why would the small market Blues ever commit big term and dollars to a goaltender when Allen is waiting to assume the
starters job on Day 1 of 2014-15?

This is the beauty of developing players and having a self-sustaining organization.

You think the Blues are going to trade their first rounder ever year and then sign the acquired player to a big money deal just cause they're in a win now mode? That would be ruinous. It happened one time. Perfect target at the perfect time playing the perfect position in JBo.

The goaltending situation is totally different because of Allen.

A team looking to contend does not hand the starters spot to a player with 15 NHL games experience. Equally, when we needed to drop salary in the summer why did we sell low on Perron rather than just dumping Halák and going with Allen/Elliott? If we viewed Allen as a starter this season then we would have done that, maybe we would also have moved Perron but Halák would be gone. You don't earn a NHL starters spot in the AHL.

That is not to say that he doesn't steal the starters spot, but he'll have to steal it. It would be insanity to view him as the starter going into the season.

The argument about giving up firsts is just flat out flawed. You can give up your first every single year if you are managing to maintain a solid prospect pool. We have given up our first round pick in 2 of the past 3 seasons and still picked up Rattie, Jaškin, Binnington, Lundström, Edmundson, Eronen, Vanelli and Carrier in those 2 drafts. All those players are developing well, so we are maintaining our system.

As for money... we are currently spending $6.4m on goaltending. Next season we are spending $850k + whatever our starter earns, so we are unlikely to be spending more on goaltending next season than this season. Plenty of areas in the team to save money next season if Armstrong needs to (Morrow gone, Aucoin gone, Sobotka for Berglund?, Jaškin for Stewart?, Cole for Polák?).

 

[bleedblue1223]

It's a "slight" upgrade because Miller won't really win us anymore games than if Halak was in net.