Blues Trade Proposals 2018-2019 - Part III
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EastonBlues22
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Good luck trying to put together a Cup winning roster with nobody on it with a contract that takes them into their early-to-mid 30s (or later), not to mention a Cup winning roster with nobody on it that is "overpaid."
Worse players are worse players. Yeah, there might be a time when Nylander/Pesce are better than Schwartz/Pietrangelo, but we should be confident that won't be anytime particularly soon. What of the team between now and then? You make it sound like this is what it takes for the Blues to be competitive, but it actually has the exact opposite effect, all out of fear of something that might happen 5-7 years down the road.
Good teams hand out those contracts to their best players without blinking because they know you need players like that to win, and it is very, very difficult to acquire new ones, not because they think those are great value deals. They make up for that necessity by not chaining themselves to terrible contracts with depth players, and by drafting well so they have contributing ELCs to help balance the books.
What good teams don't do is walk away from or trade away premium talent (first line forwards, top pairing defenders) who still have years of good productivity left out of fear that they won't be "worth" their contracts as they wind down. Top line forwards and top pairing defenders do not grow on trees, and teams do not generally have the luxury of walking away from them while they still have years left at that level. If things get crappy at the end, you cope the best you can. Bad contracts can be traded, or bought out (regular or compliance), or sometimes injuries take care of it, or whatever. You deal with it then after riding that premium talent for as long as you can.
I just have no interest in trading Pietrangelo. Even with his slow start this year, he’s still a top 15 defenseman in the league. Top 10 in a good year. And not much debate there.
I mean, I just don’t see any trade that makes us better. We’d have to move him 1 for 1 for a guy like Doughty to accomplish that and I don’t think that happens.
If you trade him for futures, I don’t feel comfortable at all in building the defense around Parayko. He’s not good enough. Good #2 though.
I look at a team like Edmonton and I think that’d be our D core without Petro. Larsson, Nurse, Klefbom... decent players but no go-to guy and their defense isn’t good enough in terms of transition and offense either.
The team just needs to make some tweaks. If they want to move Bozak, Steen, or someone like that, sure. I won’t complain. But trading a core guy would end badly.
I mean, I just don’t see any trade that makes us better. We’d have to move him 1 for 1 for a guy like Doughty to accomplish that and I don’t think that happens.
If you trade him for futures, I don’t feel comfortable at all in building the defense around Parayko. He’s not good enough. Good #2 though.
I look at a team like Edmonton and I think that’d be our D core without Petro. Larsson, Nurse, Klefbom... decent players but no go-to guy and their defense isn’t good enough in terms of transition and offense either.
The team just needs to make some tweaks. If they want to move Bozak, Steen, or someone like that, sure. I won’t complain. But trading a core guy would end badly.
Zamadoo
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The two reasons I would be in favor of trading Petro are A) Locker room/leadership stuff that we don't know about, and/or B) the wife and triplets have moved to Toronto.
That is really terrible for us. If we want to do something with TOR & CAR...
Blues in: Pesce, Liljegren & Nečas
Blues out: Parayko, Walman/Mikkola & Kostin
Leafs in: Parayko & Walman/Mikkola
Leafs out: Nylander & Liljegren
Canes in: Nylander & Kostin
Canes out: Pesce & Nečas
Carolina get the forward they want for the defenseman they are comfortable moving and the Leafs fans get a defenseman they prefer. It's a bit of a shake up trade for us, we save some cap, get an extra year and upgrade two prospects.
Maybe the prospect swap makeweights result in it favouring us too much, but that is about the only scenario I could see us moving a RHD in the short term.
542365
2018-19 Cup Champs!
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Evocable Manager
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Is his wife moved to Toronto (which surely didn't happen) would that not eradicate the whole "tired from triplets" justification for why he's been crap this year?
Either way, unless he's surely gone, keep him.
Either way, unless he's surely gone, keep him.
Vincenzo Arelliti
He Can't Play Center
With the GM gone in Philly, any chance we could snag Giroux (RHS - amazing on the left wall), and maybe Elliott?
Whoa, that surprises me. I thought Hextall was building a decent team there...
I have no clue how Hakstol still has a job. He might be next now, but he's not a good coach.
The Flyers might be a trade partner if the two teams are looking for a shakeup.
Evocable Manager
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I highly doubt they are gonna move Giroux but I wonder if they'd ponder moving one of Sanheim or Ghost. Unlikely but we could use a LHD.
I've never said it would be easy. For the record, I believe Nylander is better than Schwartz right now. We view things differently. I understand most teams have aging vets that aren't actually worth what they're getting paid. My goal would be to limit that as much as possible. Just because it's the norm around the league doesn't make it the best philosophy to continue.
We can flip the tables on the vets playing on the Blues roster and ask what have they accomplished to deserve 6-7 more years? I'd rather play devil's advocate and cover all my bases than sign a guy who's already 30 to 6-7 more years only to watch it be a boat anchor hampering the overall organization. I'm not saying, and never have said, that Pietrangelo's play will fall off a cliff. I've said the opposite that I do think he will age fairly well. It's all speculation for now. It could very well be the correct decision at the end of the day to resign him. That's always a possibility. I wouldn't make the decision lightly either way. For me personally, I'd see what the market is for him and let that weigh into the overall decision. I could be completely wrong but my gut tells me a team would pony up something it would be too hard to pass up. Look at the Hall for Larsson trade for example. Yes they both had term but Larsson doesn't have the resume of Pietrangelo.
I think a team like Tampa Bay could be a very good trade partner for Pietrangelo.
Time will tell but if the Blues haven't made remarkable strides by Feb 25th I expect at least one major name to be dealt.
Majorityof1
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How does firing their GM make those players available? It is unlikely they will make any kind of trade with no GM in place. Maybe when they hire someone, that GM will want to clean house. It happenes occasionally that a new GM wants all the old-guard's players out, but that isn't a day 1 process. Also I doubt they start with Giroux. Elliott could be a possibility when Neuvirth comes back, but Pickard has been pretty awful. So they'd need a back-up. I don't see the upside for them in that move unless they want to give Pickard or Stolarz games to develop.
BleedBlue14
UrGeNcY
I'm not going to act like I know what Philly's needs are but I would certainly be interested in picking one of those two from them and letting Dunn slide down to the 2nd pairing and Eddy slide to the bottom as he's been pretty rough this year. The issue is that I feel like defense has been their problem and I'm not sure if either of those two players really helps solidify our defense all that much.
I still think Muzzin to St. Louis makes a lot of sense. I think the question becomes what exactly is Los Angeles trying to do with this year and what is ailing them right now outside of goalies being hurt.
Zamadoo
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No, sorry I wasn't saying they did. What I meant was that if there was any inclination that he wasn't going to re-sign after next season, then we should trade him.
BleedBlue14
UrGeNcY
Yeah but he can move the puck and it's not like a Hampus Lindholm is going to fall into our laps. He's handled top minutes for a while now and I really don't think Dunn is ready for that on the defensive side of things. I also think it's pretty safe to say that Edmundson hasn't been playing as well as he did with Pietrangelo for a while last year. What's that leave us with? A mess of Bouwmeester, Gunnarsson and Bortuzzo when he gets back.
EastonBlues22
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Why?
Context suggests you're asking that about Pietrangelo and Schwartz, which is pretty hard for me to believe. Do I really need to build a case for what Pietrangelo has accomplished?
Schwartz's resume might not be quite as exceptional as Pietrangelo's, but he's still easily a top line player. He has the 50th best P/GP among all forwards since 2013-14 (minimum 70 games played), 8th among those listed as LWers by NHL.com, and he has a well-rounded game to boot. If that's not good enough to earn another contract, then what is?
It's hard for me to believe that 20 games can make these guys expendable pieces to some after almost 400 games of solidifying themselves as critical foundation pieces for the franchise.
The context I was asking about was overall winning as an accomplishment not individual stats. It’s not like this core group has been a team that’s made perennial deep playoff runs. That’s what I was alluding to.
Schwartz has historically earned his points through hard work more so than pure skill. Would you find it more acceptable if I said Nylander is more of a dynamic offensive talent? As I’ve said as well, Schwartz hasn’t been as good defensively as years past. This is one category that Schwartz historically has over Nylander. He’s been atrocious in the defensive zone and he’s not back checking to steal pucks like he once did. There isn’t one pure offensive skill that Schwartz is equal to Nylander in. He’s a better forechecker. That certainly is a good attribute but any 4th line plug can be great at forechecking.
Has Schwartz regressed because of Yeo? Has Pietrangelo? Are they just having a bad 20 games? Really good players typically don’t have stretches of 20 games they struggle through. They might have 3, 5, maybe 10, but 20?? I have no doubt that Yeo was a bad head coach but, I can’t put all the players results on Yeo’s inability to coach.
Pietrangelo’s resume as a pro certainly is a factor in the case of resigning him. So does his age, term, amount of the deal, and play from now until until he signs his next contact. The crux of our discussion seems to be you are basically willing to give Pietrangelo a pass on his current play and are willing to see the organization sign him solely based on his resume. You’re obviously entitled to that view. It’s just one I don’t share.
It’s most likely a moot conversation because I don’t think the Blues will trade Pietrangelo.
TheBluePenguin
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The answer is honestly a lot of posters on this board have lost their damn minds.... The expectations of the season and horrible play has made everyone go to crazy town
carter333167
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My interpretation of Armstrong's presser is that a big name (or perhaps big names) will probably be on the block if we don't make the playoffs. I also think that Armstrong was fairly explicit in stating that winning is the primary metric that matters at this point.
In sum, I think Petro, considering the status of his contract, is just as likely as any of the other big names to be shopped, That doesn't mean he would necessarily be traded but, if a team offers an enticing package, I think the Blues would consider it. I also think it possible that a team might offer an enticing package. A Subban-Webber type of deal would have been far more likely during the summer and might have been reflected in a Petro for Karlsson type of deal. Now, we'd more likely see a High level D-Propsect and a couple of firsts type of offer. Just my opinion.
EastonBlues22
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Schwartz isn't some second line guy playing above his station through hard work. He has legitimate first line skill, and always has. Nylander plays a far flashier game, but until he starts flirting with 30 goals and/or a PPG, he hasn't proven himself to be anywhere near as productive as Schwartz has. Being more dynamic doesn't mean much if you're not going to the dirty areas of the ice.
Do you know how many goals Nylander scored in contested dirty areas around the net last year? One. One goal out of twenty. Pretty much the only time he was at the front of the net was off the rush. You can watch them all for yourself HERE. Do you think that's going to generally be a successful approach in the playoffs? If your team is already struggling in that area, is Nylander really the sort of guy you want to be targeting?
Schwartz has played 15 games this year, and clearly not all of them have been bad. Same goes for Pietrangelo, for that matter, the narratives on this board notwithstanding. It's not even hard to disprove the notion.
Pietrangelo has 4 goals, 5 assists, and is +3 in his last 13 games...a 25 goal, 57 point, +19 pace. Schwartz had 2 goals, 5 assists, and was +5 in his last 9 games before getting hurt...an 18 goal, 64 point, +46 pace. Horrible stuff, that, and those stretches approximately represent the most recent 60% of their respective seasons to date. Clearly, they haven't been struggling for 15-20 games this season, and if they're regressing, they're sure going about it in a funny way given the way their play is trending.
As for Schwartz's defense, we're right back to talking about a handful of games vs an entire career. I suggest following this link comparing Schwartz to Nylander in some common metrics over a span of 2016 through the present (so this year included). Particularly draw your attention to the line regarding expected goals against.
Tableau Public
i would rather keep both mikkola and kostin ...
The #1 for #1 defenseman really seems a more logical conversation...though I don't see us ever trading Petro. Who is a #1 or a package with a possible high ceiling of a #1 or low ceiling top 4 that could possibly happen or for that matter be reasonable? Someone will be making a serious cup run that is a top 4 d-man short. I kind of feel as if a move needs to be made on the back line.
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