Confirmed with Link: Blues acquire Marcel Goc for Max Lapierre [PIT]

[Driveshaft]

So much for the LapROtt line

 

[taylord22]

I feel like this puts any Sobotka rumors to rest. I don't think Goc helps the PK enough to necessarily justify making a move if there was even an inkling that Sobotka could rejoin the team. Unless, of course, we're planning to move Berglund.

 

[LGB51]

Wait what...?

 

[Alklha]

I feel like this puts any Sobotka rumors to rest. I don't think Goc helps the PK enough to necessarily justify making a move if there was even an inkling that Sobotka could rejoin the team. Unless, of course, we're planning to move Berglund.

Sobotka can't return until after his season finishes. Avangard are 2 points behind Sibir (KHL has 3 point win system) having played a game more, but Sibir have lost their best player for a while. Avangard will probably finish as #2 seed. Sobotka is likely to have a long playoff run in the KHL which rules out any return this season.

 

[taylord22]

Sobotka can't return until after his season finishes. Avangard are 2 points behind Sibir (KHL has 3 point win system) having played a game more, but Sibir have lost their best player for a while. Avangard will probably finish as #2 seed. Sobotka is likely to have a long playoff run in the KHL which rules out any return this season.

Ah, good to know. I knew it was based on him finishing the season, but I didn't know how his team's success projected.

 

[anlongo13]

Basically from what I have gathered from the Penguin fan comments, is that they are all unhappy. 50% are unhappy about trading Goc. The other 50% are pissed they are getting Lappy.

To me, it seems like a lateral movement. Little disappointed losing Lappy, because he was on of the few forwards who actually showed up in the Chicago series. Hard to judge Goc too much since he was on a line with terrible players. Seems like he is a more rounded player. Withholding judgement until he plays some minutes.

 

[TheOrganist]

I don't know what the metrics indicate but I felt Lappy was a little less reliable this year. That play in Anaheim where he just stared at the puck in the defensive zone and Kesler scored two seconds later is one that sticks out. But he wasn't awful by any means. Weird deal. Especially when he had a solid playoff last year and was clearly a great guy in the room.

 

[Hockey Monkey]

Lappy takes a lot of defensive zone faceoffs against bad competition and has not done well at all possession-wise. Goc gets more offensive zone faceoffs and has done much better possession-wise against tougher competition. A cursory glance says their linemates are pretty much a wash.

If these stats continue we win this trade easily. No idea why on earth the Pens would do this.

 

[DatDude44]

Lappy takes a lot of defensive zone faceoffs against bad competition and has not done well at all possession-wise. Goc gets more offensive zone faceoffs and has done much better possession-wise against tougher competition. A cursory glance says their linemates are pretty much a wash.

If these stats continue we win this trade easily. No idea why on earth the Pens would do this.

Well, lappy has played with Ott and Reaves....so the possession time explains itself there lol. Goc is usually the 4th line center for the pens when they're healthy, playing with craig adams and whoever else they toss on that line...thing is, pens haven't been healthy for a while so i think goc has had alot of playing time on the third and maybe even 2nd line at times.....so his statistics like this may be a little skewed. But regardless, i don't hate the trade. Goc is a smart player, doesnt' take penalties, kills penalties, wins faceoffs(i believe) and is a smart two way player....has a little more vision than lappy in the offensive zone. Probly not as much speed tho, nor plays the pest role as much. Tho lappy hasn't done that near as much lately anyway. If goc plays smart in his own zone and helps eliminate a few of those 4th line goals against, then it could be a better trade than people think.

As we all know, come playoff time, depth is huge...so many cup teams have huge goals coming from 3rd and 4th liners like talbot for the pens in 09, bickell for the hawks every year, mike richards, martinez and tanner pearson for the kings last year.

So who knows what coudl happen, maybe goc's little bit of offensive upside in comparison to lapierre helps create an extra goal or two in the playoffs that may come when we desperately need one.

 

[ManyIdeas]

If we hit the bullseye, the house of cards will fall like dominos.

Checkmate.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Bam!

Bada bing!

Done!

 

[Hooliganx3]

Lappy takes a lot of defensive zone faceoffs against bad competition and has not done well at all possession-wise. Goc gets more offensive zone faceoffs and has done much better possession-wise against tougher competition. A cursory glance says their linemates are pretty much a wash.

If these stats continue we win this trade easily. No idea why on earth the Pens would do this.

Corsi is pretty overrated. Also the difference is not nearly the extent that chart make it out to be.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Corsi is pretty overrated. Also the difference is not nearly the extent that chart make it out to be.

Seriously. I know the chart didn't originate from people here, but it's a clear example how statistic can be manipulated to fit an agenda, in this case an upset Pens fan.

 

[JustOneB4IDie]

Goc definitely should help the PK. I can't complain about that at all.

This.

 

[Hockey Monkey]

Corsi is pretty overrated. Also the difference is not nearly the extent that chart make it out to be.

I'm unsure what either of these statements mean. First, how a statistic can be "overrated", and then how a chart with clearly labeled axes can be misleading.

 

[Alklha]

I'm unsure what either of these statements mean. First, how a statistic can be "overrated", and then how a chart with clearly labeled axes can be misleading.

Because when a scale is created and have 2 players are placed on it, then that scale is trimmed all the way down to make it appear that players are at extreme ends of it... it is being done to misrepresent the facts.

You can say that the axes are clearly labelled, but that isn't the focus of the chart and it isn't what most people take away from it.

 

[Ranksu]

First I was bit shock when this deal came. I sort off liked Lappy and our 4th line. Now there is this Goc. I guess he will doing fine there. Lookings stats and some 'real time stats' were quite opposite what I first thought about. Like hitting category. So easily can say this is upgrade what Lapierre was.

		GP	G	A	P	+/-	TOI/GP	HIT	BS	TOT/FO	FO%

Lapierre	45	2	7	9	-2	10:21	        48	17	244	       54.9%	
Goc		43	2	4	6	-2	12:26	        56	22	437	       54.0%

Bring more European guys here!!!

 

[Hockey Monkey]

it is being done to misrepresent the facts.

Actually that is just how the WOI software output looks. I promise it is not a grand conspiracy to bamboozle ignorant hockey fans into overrating 4th liners.

 

[ManyIdeas]

I'm unsure what either of these statements mean. First, how a statistic can be "overrated", and then how a chart with clearly labeled axes can be misleading.

There's like 10 feet of white space in between very small percentages.

If someone were to make that same graph with many more defensively minded 4th line Cs, it would not nearly look like we stole the superior corsi player, I'd imagine.

It's the opposite equivalent of a career points comparison from Gretzky and Reaves where the bar graph is in units of 100,000.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I'm unsure what either of these statements mean. First, how a statistic can be "overrated", and then how a chart with clearly labeled axes can be misleading.

Corsi just measures shot for and against, that in itself is a pretty pointless stat. It measures a potential indicator of success, not actual success or an actual indicator of success.

With no reference points and only 2 data points that are zoomed in on with low levels of change on the x and y axis will make any chart/graph skewed and not worth much.

 

[KirkOut]

I'm unsure what either of these statements mean. First, how a statistic can be "overrated", and then how a chart with clearly labeled axes can be misleading.

See such a graph can be misleading due to there being only 2 data points. A non-discerning person might look at it and think wow, the red dot is way farther up than the blue dot. That guy must be a hoot. Not so.

 

[Hockey Monkey]

Corsi just measures shot for and against, that in itself is a pretty pointless stat. It measures a potential indicator of success, not actual success or an actual indicator of success.

It has quite a bit of predictive value which is why stat-heads like me like it over things like HITZ and +\- and in particular blocked shots as measures of efficacy for players who don't score a lot of points. It isn't perfect but no stat is; it is quite incorrect to say it is "pointless" in any case. Believe it or not team possession stats predict future wins better than say, goal differential (aka "actual indicator of success").

With no reference points and only 2 data points that are zoomed in on with low levels of change on the x and y axis will make any chart/graph skewed and not worth much.

Skew has a specific meaning, without getting too wordy it means that an axi(e)s has been altered in reference to another and thus the coordinate system is no longer orthogonal (aka "right angles"). Needless to say this chart does not use a skew system.

What you're upset about is called scale, and your problem is that you want to see more white space or something. That's a complaint about presentation that does not address the validity of the data.

 

[Alklha]

Actually that is just how the WOI software output looks. I promise it is not a grand conspiracy to bamboozle ignorant hockey fans into overrating 4th liners.

Sorry, I should have said typically. You only have to look on the trade board thread to see this first appeared from a twitter post using the image to try and act like this is a horrific trade for the Penguins.

Most fans don't understand these advanced stats fully, see charts like this and go into hyperbolic rants about 4th liners.

 

[Blues88]

Maybe its a Rutherford-Armstrong feeling out process to see if another, bigger deal could be made down the road?

 

[STL fan in MN]

I'm really liking this deal for the Blues. We will obviously have to wait to see how it translates on the ice, but on paper, I like Goc a good deal more than Lappy.

How is see the comparison/who I give the edge to:

Hockey sense: Goc
Defensive ability: Goc - as stated in JR's story today, this should allow Ott and Reaves to forecheck harder while Goc sits back and covers things defensively
Offensive ability: Goc, although neither are going to contribute all that much
PK ability: Goc, by a lot, and this is a big plus for the Blues. Goc himself helps the PK but this also allows guys like Backes, Oshie and Steen to play a little less on the PK, which should result in them being fresher for their even strength and PP time
Skating: Even
Faceoffs: Even
Physicality: Lappy
Size/strength: Lappy
Chippiness: Lappy

The Blues gave up a little size and chippiness (although Lappy's edge has softened a bit lately anyway) but the Blues could afford to part with that as they still have a good amount of grit and edge with Ott and Reaves. In return, they got a 4th line C that is very good on the PK. This is a big plus for the Blues - Goc himself makes the PK better but it also allows guys like Backes, Oshie, Steen etc. to play a little less PK, thus being fresher for their even strength and PP time. That's a small but very important aspect of this trade. Goc will also help the 4th line defensively at even strength and may even boost the offense of the 4th line a bit but if so, I expect it to be negligible. Goc also has the ability to play a 3rd line role in the event of injuries. He's not an ideal 3rd liner at this stage of his career but he can certainly fill in there admirably, at least better than Lappy would.

Great trade on paper. Hopefully it turns out that way on the ice too.