Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

[Jarick]

Think about how united the players are. the top tier players go to Europe to make money while the lower tier players stay home and don't collect a paycheck. also, don't forget that the players who do go to Europe are taking someone's job, which supposedly what a union is designed to protect against. hypocrisy at it's finest

Outside of goalies, have any NHL players been turned down for jobs in Europe? I'm not trying to argue, I'm actually curious. I haven't heard of anyone yet...

 

[powerstuck]

Outside of goalies, have any NHL players been turned down for jobs in Europe? I'm not trying to argue, I'm actually curious. I haven't heard of anyone yet...

From what I know, Pacioretty was benched by his coach and decided to leave the team. Even tho official reports say he took the decision to heal some injuries those same injuries would not have stopped him from playing in NHL but they did in Swiss league.

 

[Fugu]

tweak simply means "small adjustment".

I know. That's why I said it's not the same as negotiating-- in the context of the OP's statement that everything was on the table.

 

[TruGr1t]

I have no idea. It's really, really stupid that the NHLPA couldn't make a single proposal with linked HRR. It's too late in the game to change that.

Yes, it is absolutely ludicrous and defies logic. This is what is holding up negotiations. It should be obtainable to negotiate what you're suggesting. The NHL made the first step in dropping to 50-50 and maintaining HRR definitions...what people are pissed off about is that the NHLPA wouldn't play ball on those counts. I thought the big battle for the PA was going to be HRR? What happened to that? Oh yeah, the owners backed off.

 

[mouser]

Quite comically, and although the usual pundits will yell "no linkage!!!" all over the place, the NHLPA proposal # 1 (from the recently rejected 3 proposals in 1 day event) works out to an average of 51.1%, if you stretch it out to a 6 year deal and assume 7.0% growth each year.

Where are you getting those figures from? The NHLPA's own figures for Proposal #1 at 7.2% growth had them getting 51.6% over five years and 51.5% over six years. If you back those down to 7.0% growth I get 51.6% and 51.3% respectively.

If the NHL growth was closer to the NHL's 5% figure then it would have been 53.0% for five years and 52.5% over six years.

Pretty big difference depending on how growth falls.

 

[CN_paladin]

After Friday's Winter Classic cancellation, the owners should just force Bettman to come out to say that the players' percentage decreases by 1 percent every week from now on.

See how fast those 700 smartasses suddenly realize they are throwing 1.6 BILLION (not million) and their short careers away.

 

[Jarick]

Looking at some different growth rates, these were the revenue share numbers and actual dollar difference over the deal (five years):

0% growth
NHLPA1: 61.0% / $1823M
NHLPA2: 57.0% / 1156M

3.5% growth
NHLPA1: 55.0% / $914M
NHLPA2: 53.8% / $696M

7% growth
NHLPA1: 50.9% / $174M
NHLPA2: 51.6% / $326M



Maybe it's just me but I kind of looked at the NHLPA's structure overall and not so much the numbers. I didn't expect those to be the final numbers. I was more thinking "PA wants to get down to 50% by year five, NHL wants 50% year one...let's do 50% in year three." But the PA would have had to make a linked proposal.

 

[MtlPenFan]

After Friday's Winter Classic cancellation, the owners should just force Bettman to come out to say that the players' percentage decreases by 1 percent every week from now on.

See how fast those 700 smartasses suddenly realize they are throwing 1.6 BILLION (not million) and their short careers away.

**** them. Let them stay home and hang out with their "principles"

 

[rt]

54.3%
52.4%
50.9%
50.0%
50.0%
50.0%

Sounds good. Let's drop the puck.

 

[Gberg]

Think about how united the players are. the top tier players go to Europe to make money while the lower tier players stay home and don't collect a paycheck. also, don't forget that the players who do go to Europe are taking someone's job, which supposedly what a union is designed to protect against. hypocrisy at it's finest

this isn't the world hockey union.. this is the NHLPA.

 

[Fugu]

Looking at some different growth rates, these were the revenue share numbers and actual dollar difference over the deal (five years):

0% growth
NHLPA1: 61.0% / $1823M
NHLPA2: 57.0% / 1156M

3.5% growth
NHLPA1: 55.0% / $914M
NHLPA2: 53.8% / $696M

7% growth
NHLPA1: 50.9% / $174M
NHLPA2: 51.6% / $326M



Maybe it's just me but I kind of looked at the NHLPA's structure overall and not so much the numbers. I didn't expect those to be the final numbers. I was more thinking "PA wants to get down to 50% by year five, NHL wants 50% year one...let's do 50% in year three." But the PA would have had to make a linked proposal.

The numbers indeed are one thing, but they seem pretty convinced that the other player movement issues, the non-economic issues, are untouchable. From the PA's perspective, the message appears to be that linkage and a cap was given in exchange for the UFA and other rights changes in 2005.

 

[Henrik To Daniel]

is it true that the winter classic has been cancelled?

 

[WayneSid9987]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Bill Daly and Steve Fehr spoke by phone today. Still no bargaining talks scheduled at this point

/huge ball of dusty money rolls across your screen

 

[Killion]

is it true that the winter classic has been cancelled?

... no, not yet, but theres been speculation in the media (Shoalts in the Globe for eg.) & elsewhere that they'll cancel it this Thusday or Friday. The contract they signed with the venue stipulates they'll have to pay a $100,000 cancellation fee up to November 1st, the clock ticking with the cancellation fee rising thereafter.

 

[Henrik To Daniel]

... no, not yet, but theres been speculation in the media (Shoalts in the Globe for eg.) & elsewhere that they'll cancel it this Thusday or Friday. The contract they signed with the venue stipulates they'll have to pay a $100,000 cancellation fee up to November 1st, the clock ticking with the cancellation fee rising thereafter.

well if they do cancel it that means they're cancelling all the games in december... is it even worth having a season at that point?

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Bill Daly and Steve Fehr spoke by phone today. Still no bargaining talks scheduled at this point

/huge ball of dusty money rolls across your screen

what do they talk about day after day?

 

[TruGr1t]

The numbers indeed are one thing, but they seem pretty convinced that the other player movement issues, the non-economic issues, are untouchable. From the PA's perspective, the message appears to be that linkage and a cap was given in exchange for the UFA and other rights changes in 2005.

This is the crux of the disagreement on this board, that's for sure. If the league was completely inflexible on the non-economic issues that is a entirely different ballgame. Though we can only speculate on the NHLPA's definition of 'inflexible.' Does the PA want no max contract length? I don't think that's negotiable though they could easily extend it. Does the PA want UFA age right after an ELC? Well that ain't going to happen either. Should focus on what's obtainable. There will be a max contract length so argue for a longer one, and get more preferable ELC conditions, work with free agency. I haven't even heard the PA address any of these issues though, so who knows where they stand.

 

[Killion]

what do they talk about day after day?

... the fabulous Wings served up at Atomic, located at 9th & 39th in Manhattan?

 

[Sty1877]

I'm excited to see the next thread title. This one was an all time low

 

[MtlPenFan]

This is the crux of the disagreement on this board, that's for sure. If the league was completely inflexible on the non-economic issues that is a entirely different ballgame. Though we can only speculate on the NHLPA's definition of 'inflexible.' Does the PA want no max contract length? I don't think that's negotiable though they could easily extend it. Does the PA want UFA age right after an ELC? Well that ain't going to happen either. Should focus on what's obtainable. There will be a max contract length so argue for a longer one, and get more preferable ELC conditions, work with free agency. I haven't even heard the PA address any of these issues though, so who knows where they stand.

How many players out there have really signed long term contracts compared to how many players their are in the League? It represents barely a fraction, yet here we are, another sticking point for the PA to fight about when barely 10% of their members ever get a whiff of those types of contracts.

 

[Mike Jones]

what do they talk about day after day?

Daly: Sandy hit Toronto?

Fehr: Yup. New York?

Daly: Yup.

Fehr: Well then, tomorrow same time?

 

[SJeasy]

How many players out there have really signed long term contracts compared to how many players their are in the League? It represents barely a fraction, yet here we are, another sticking point for the PA to fight about when barely 10% of their members ever get a whiff of those types of contracts.

Just another bit regarding agents. Agents always emphasize total contract value to their clients rather than single year payouts. It is occasionally counterproductive, but the quotes overwhelmingly support this take. The long contracts are a weapon in the agents' arsenal that they are going to be very reluctant to relinquish.

 

[TruGr1t]

How many players out there have really signed long term contracts compared to how many players their are in the League? It represents barely a fraction, yet here we are, another sticking point for the PA to fight about when barely 10% of their members ever get a whiff of those types of contracts.

Oh I agree, but it is the same players making a big deal about honouring contracts. Does it matter to a guy with one year left on his deal making $650k annually what the owners do with the deals? Not really. It matters to the guys with deals the eclipse the length of any suggested CBA and are worth like $100MM over life of contract. That's not a big percentage of the playerbase either.

 

[Chelios]

The numbers indeed are one thing, but they seem pretty convinced that the other player movement issues, the non-economic issues, are untouchable. From the PA's perspective, the message appears to be that linkage and a cap was given in exchange for the UFA and other rights changes in 2005.

I keep reading this from you, that the peripheral player movement issues are a big reason about why we are where we are. I just don't see how you can rationally think that is what is holding this back. If the players agreed to a 50% linked deal do you really think the NHL cares that much how the 50% is split up? It just seems like that is the last thing that the pro-PA crowd can cling to to rationalize their stance.

 

[mzappa]

Not necessarily (but cancelling all of December is not far off).

They would cancel the actual Winter Classic event which requires massive logistical organization.

They could still hold the game at the normal rink (think Detroit is the home team?)

well if they do cancel it that means they're cancelling all the games in december... is it even worth having a season at that point?