Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

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Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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I'm pretty sure what I remember hearing was in a Bettman presser following the break up of the negotiations (with Jacobs et al.).

The closest thing I can find right now is a Bettman presser a few days later, but I thought there was an earlier one (video).

The one link I did find isn't currently viewable, RPC error, which probably means the NHL network is down right now.

http://kuklaskorner.com/hockey/comments/video-bettman-updates-the-cba-negotiations

It's also on the league website, same issue.
 

mossey3535

Registered User
Feb 7, 2011
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All this 'he said she said' is pointless. At some point there is going to be negotiation, no matter what BS has been said by both sides.

Again, the players should get whatever they can get realistically. Their own union has presented a thoughtless, less valuable proposal that had no chance of being accepted the other side. The players should actually consider themselves lucky that the NHL rejected that offer, since more than 50% of them would suffer because of it.
 

Mad Dog Tannen

Registered User
Apr 10, 2010
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I'm pretty sure what I remember hearing was in a Bettman presser following the break up of the negotiations (with Jacobs et al.).

The closest thing I can find right now is a Bettman presser a few days later, but I thought there was an earlier one (video).

The one link I did find isn't currently viewable, RPC error, which probably means the NHL network is down right now.

http://kuklaskorner.com/hockey/comments/video-bettman-updates-the-cba-negotiations

It's also on the league website, same issue.

MOD

Anyways, I think people are getting too heavily invested in the side they're rooting for. Whenm you start citing 13 teams have lost money as fact in posts based on a Pierre Macquire soundbyte you read about, its probably time to take a step back.

There is massive spin on both sides. This is a total he said she said argument, don't think anyone will convince the other side using the Fehr quote or the vague Daly quote that is open for interpretation. (Its a stretch that quote is saying what you're claiming).

Anyways, lock out day 45. Sigh.
 
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NHLFanSince2020

What'd He Say?
Feb 22, 2003
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It doesn't matter what you're interpreting from the language, it's that this Fehr character is supposed to be a great negotiator.

You can try to negotiate whatever you want once you get a dialogue going.

He didn't do that though, did he?
 

Tra La La

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Feb 13, 2003
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The last NHL offer with make whole was golden.Players got their contracts paid, owners got 50-50. I'm still blown away they discarded it so quickly. Is it because the players are so used to being coached? They take a 26% loss because they are told they can do better? Does anyone see a way where the players do better now?
 

WayneSid9987

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Nov 24, 2009
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It's pretty obvious Fehr is still testing the owners resolve. Once he realizes they aren't gonna budge, what does he do then? Thats the question we'd all like answered.
 

scelaton

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Jul 5, 2012
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See this is EXACTLY the kind of post that completely baffles me. I just don't know where people get off accusing other professionals, who continue to get hired by high-profile clients, of acting only in their own best interests.

To accuse Donald Fehr of being in it for only his legacy is to say that:

a) he is willing to completely disregard the oath of his profession
b) he is willing to potentially sabotage all of his future earnings as a professional by placing his own goals over those of his clients and running the risk of losing future business as a result
c) because he apparently "earned" this reputation in the past, groups like the NHLPA continue to hire him because they either don't care about their own best interests or are utterly incapable of hiring a competent leader
d) he is both completely incompetent and a professional fraud

Personally I'm not comfortable hurling those kind of accusations at another human being.

Whoa, don't exaggerate by using terms like "completely disregard" or "completely incompetent", or you will miss the point. The concerns about Fehr's character arise from the fact that, by any objective financial metric, he seems to have already rejected the best possible deal and things are getting worse by the week. How could this be?
Now let's focus on his 'clients', the players. What are their interests and what are their vulnerabilities? I would submit that the players are exceptionally young, naive, inexperienced and unsophisticated as a group of adults. Because they have so much money at stake, they need a leader who does not play to their weaknesses (ie the tendency to see life in simple terms, as a battle involving winning and losing) but rather subordinates his and their ego needs to the 'best possible deal', unconditionally. Fehr is not that person.
Why would the PA hire such a flawed leader and why is he still in demand? It happens all the time. Major corporations, religions and countries-including the USA- have been led by such people. Look up any of the copious literature on 'successful psychopaths' or 'narcissistic leaders' and you will see that Fehr is in good company.
I have maintained, in previous posts, that Fehr is abrogating his fiduciary responsibility to the PA by subordinating their interests to his grandiose ideas. It is not personal--I don't hate the guy and he may not even be aware of his hubris --but how can one conclude anything else given the fact that the players are already in a net loss position relative to the owners initial 50/50 proposition, and many stand to lose huge chunks of lifetime earnings if this nonsense goes on.
 

CGG

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Jan 6, 2005
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My suspicion, which I'll admit I don't have any hard evidence for, is that the owners would be willing to flex on a % ramp down. But it needs to be hard linked and I doubt they'll go higher than 51% or possibly 51.5% averaged over the length of the CBA.

Quite comically, and although the usual pundits will yell "no linkage!!!" all over the place, the NHLPA proposal # 1 (from the recently rejected 3 proposals in 1 day event) works out to an average of 51.1%, if you stretch it out to a 6 year deal and assume 7.0% growth each year.

If the owners were willing to accept something around 51% on average, they could have very easily proposed a fully linked deal with:

54.3%
52.4%
50.9%
50.0%
50.0%
50.0%

over the 6 years, which matches the NHLPA's proposal if they do achieve 7.0% growth each year. That would have forced the PA to put their faith in 7% growth and we (in theory) would have a deal.

But no, the NHL wants blood and instant savings, two things that a deal like this wouldn't give them.
 

MtlPenFan

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Apr 14, 2010
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It's pretty obvious Fehr is still testing the owners resolve. Once he realizes they aren't gonna budge, what does he do then? Thats the question we'd all like answered.

Then we lose a season, because at that point it simply becomes about Fehr vs. Bettman.
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
The last NHL offer with make whole was golden.Players got their contracts paid, owners got 50-50. I'm still blown away they discarded it so quickly. Is it because the players are so used to being coached? They take a 26% loss because they are told they can do better? Does anyone see a way where the players do better now?

Revenue share for future contracts would have been less than 50% and players would have to concede to many non-core economic issues.
 

Iggy77

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Oct 5, 2009
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It's pretty obvious Fehr is still testing the owners resolve. Once he realizes they aren't gonna budge, what does he do then? Thats the question we'd all like answered.

We lose the season and then come the luxury tax CBA proposals from Fehr in the summer with constant reminders on how there's labor peace in MLB etc.
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
Quite comically, and although the usual pundits will yell "no linkage!!!" all over the place, the NHLPA proposal # 1 (from the recently rejected 3 proposals in 1 day event) works out to an average of 51.1%, if you stretch it out to a 6 year deal and assume 7.0% growth each year.

If the owners were willing to accept something around 51% on average, they could have very easily proposed a fully linked deal with:

54.3%
52.4%
50.9%
50.0%
50.0%
50.0%

over the 6 years, which matches the NHLPA's proposal if they do achieve 7.0% growth each year. That would have forced the PA to put their faith in 7% growth and we (in theory) would have a deal.

But no, the NHL wants blood and instant savings, two things that a deal like this wouldn't give them.

I think many people were expecting a final deal around 54-52-50-50-50, so that's not far off at all.

If you could get to that point, you figure out the other issues (contracts), and you're home.
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
We lose the season and then come the luxury tax CBA proposals from Fehr in the summer with constant reminders on how there's labor peace in MLB etc.

You keep coming back to this with no real evidence Fehr is going after the cap. I just don't see how the NHLPA would lose multiple seasons for that when they are doing so well with a cap.

Also, it's the salary minimum that got the NHL into this mess to begin with. If you take away the salary cap and then the salary minimums, it's a wash but the players on small market teams will hate the deal.
 

Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
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Quite comically, and although the usual pundits will yell "no linkage!!!" all over the place, the NHLPA proposal # 1 (from the recently rejected 3 proposals in 1 day event) works out to an average of 51.1%, if you stretch it out to a 6 year deal and assume 7.0% growth each year.

If the owners were willing to accept something around 51% on average, they could have very easily proposed a fully linked deal with:

54.3%
52.4%
50.9%
50.0%
50.0%
50.0%

over the 6 years, which matches the NHLPA's proposal if they do achieve 7.0% growth each year. That would have forced the PA to put their faith in 7% growth and we (in theory) would have a deal.

But no, the NHL wants blood and instant savings, two things that a deal like this wouldn't give them.

There is no yelling "no-linkage". You're missing the point. The league gave up a season for a cap and linkage, and they are not giving it up. You go on about %'s when the issue at hand is only linked vs unlinked.

Why have the players never proposed a linked deal?

The league proposed several linked deals, if the PLAYERS had countered with the LINKED deal you have outlined above we would be playing right now. Can't you see what's really going on here?
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,358
8,160
Victoria
Revenue share for future contracts would have been less than 50% and players would have to concede to many non-core economic issues.

I agree that RS and peripherals should be negotiable, and probably were.... We'll never know.... Keep in mind that the league had already bumped RS up to $200 million negotiating against themselves, and dropped HRR changes...
 

Orrthebest

Registered User
May 25, 2012
869
0
You keep coming back to this with no real evidence Fehr is going after the cap. I just don't see how the NHLPA would lose multiple seasons for that when they are doing so well with a cap.

Also, it's the salary minimum that got the NHL into this mess to begin with. If you take away the salary cap and then the salary minimums, it's a wash but the players on small market teams will hate the deal.

Well then why haven't they made any proposals under the current system?
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,358
8,160
Victoria
You keep coming back to this with no real evidence Fehr is going after the cap. I just don't see how the NHLPA would lose multiple seasons for that when they are doing so well with a cap.

Also, it's the salary minimum that got the NHL into this mess to begin with. If you take away the salary cap and then the salary minimums, it's a wash but the players on small market teams will hate the deal.

Would you at least agree that by all indications the PA is going after linkage?
 

Tra La La

Registered User
Feb 13, 2003
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Buffalo, New York
Revenue share for future contracts would have been less than 50% and players would have to concede to many non-core economic issues.


But player share would still have been 50 %. As far share available for free agent signing (future contracts) that would be dependent on revenue. When revenue goes up, share goes up. The expired proposal was the only way the current players were going to get full contract value. Now it's back to not if they take a haircut ,but how much.

Full contract value is hollow now because they lost 26 % this year.
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
Well then why haven't they made any proposals under the current system?

I have no idea. It's really, really stupid that the NHLPA couldn't make a single proposal with linked HRR. It's too late in the game to change that.

Would you at least agree that by all indications the PA is going after linkage?

I have no idea. I don't know what their end game is.

Initially I thought the de-linked proposals were a rebuff against the NHL's insulting 43% offer, but when they wouldn't propose anything with linked salaries, I thought that was pretty dumb and they were shooting themselves in the foot.

But player share would still have been 50 %. As far share available for free agent signing (future contracts) that would be dependent on revenue. When revenue goes up, share goes up. The expired proposal was the only way the current players were going to get full contract value. Now it's back to not if they take a haircut ,but how much.

Full contract value is hollow now because they lost 26 % this year.

In terms of player share, it would always be less than 50%. They could make $100B in revenues in year four and the players' share would still be 50% less the overages from years 1 and 2.

You've got to understand there's a huge difference between getting to 50% in year one and getting to 50% in year 5 or 6. Maybe you think it's fair that the players take a 13% haircut in salaries in the first two years, but that doesn't mean it's already accepted reality.
 
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