Better Player at their Peak: Ilya Kovalchuk vs Nikita Kucherov

[bobholly39]

Give Kovalchuk the support that Kucherov has in Tampa and he probably would've never went back to the KHL.

Probably. Because he'd be busy putting together strong - yet much weaker than Kucherov has - peak regular seasons, as well as strong - but much, much weaker than Kucherov has - playoff runs, by virtue of being a lesser peak player.

What's that have to do with OP though?

 

[bobholly39]

Crosby & McDavid aren't on the same tier as Lemieux & Gretzky. McDavid at least can join them in the future but Crosby? Hell no! He was never that dominant to begin with. His career is near end but he has only 2 Harts, 3 Ted Lindsays, 2 Art Rosses & two weak Conn Smythes & Maurice Richards. It's much more comparable to Ovi's hardware totals.

I've noticed Canadians tend to overrate Crosby & give him reputational awards. He is nowhere near Gretzky or even Lemieux level dominance.

Crosby may not be on the level of Gretzky nor Lemieux, but neither is McDavid. McDavid still has a very long way to go to even match Crosby. He's doing pretty good so far age to age, but Crosby aged tremendously well, top 3 all-time in league history if not better imo - so despite not having as many absolute #1 trophy wins, he's going to be an extremely high bar to surpass.

McDavid won't sniff at Gretzky or Lemieux level

 

[User9992]

Crosby may not be on the level of Gretzky nor Lemieux, but neither is McDavid. McDavid still has a very long way to go to even match Crosby. He's doing pretty good so far age to age, but Crosby aged tremendously well, top 3 all-time in league history if not better imo - so despite not having as many absolute #1 trophy wins, he's going to be an extremely high bar to surpass.

McDavid won't sniff at Gretzky or Lemieux level

IDK, I just think McDavid gonna have much more individual awards than Crosby. He already 2x Harts, 3x Ted Lindsays, 3 Art Ross. And he was robbed of Hart in 2018 IMHO. He probably end up with 4x Harts, 5x Lindsays & 5x Art Ross.

 

[Samsquanch]

People forget that Kovalchuk was a defensive force when he played for the Devils and probably the best two way winger outside of Hossa at the time.

What is there to forget?

Kucherov is better at hockey. No random Kovalchuk fact will ever possibly change the reality that Kovalchuk will never be regarded as highly as Kucherov is. Different tiers of players.

Kovalchuk is like a higher end version of Alexi Kovalev. Or Yashin. Engimatic and skilled as f***. Period.

Whereas Kucherov is now in Federov and Bure territory in terms of historical Russian players and their impact on the game.

 

[bobholly39]

IDK, I just think McDavid gonna have much more indivual awards than Crosby. He already 2x Harts, 3x Ted Lindsays, 3 Art Ross. And he was robbed of Hart in 2018 IMHO. He probably end up with 4x Harts, 5x Lindsays & 5x Art Ross.

Well, let's wait and see. People expected the same of Crosby at that age and it didn't work out. In fact, if not for freak injuries, he almost 100% would have ended up with that type of trophy case you described, as he would have had 5 Art Ross almost in the bag imo. Plus he has playoffs.

If McDavid has the trophy case you describe, and no playoffs - it's still close with Crosby, and maybe even advantage Crosby.
If McDavid has the trophy case you describe, and great playoffs (same as Crosby, or close) - sure, McDavid is ahead, but it's still not Gretzky/Lemieux tier

 

[User9992]

What is there to forget?

Kucherov is better at hockey. No random Kovalchuk fact will ever possibly change the reality that Kovalchuk will never be regarded as highly as Kucherov is. Different tiers of players.

Kovalchuk is like a higher end version of Alexi Kovalev. Engimatic and skilled as f***.

Whereas Kucherov is now in Federov and Bure territory in terms of historical Russian players and their impact on the game.

Kovy is very similar to Ovi in playstyle in my opinion. 'Poor man version' of Ovi I would say.

 

[Samsquanch]

Kovy is very similar to Ovi in playstyle in my opinio. Poor man version of Ovi I would say.

I'll go with Yashin myself for play style. Ovi is Ovi. Nothing quite like him tbh.

 

[bobholly39]

What is there to forget?

Kucherov is better at hockey. No random Kovalchuk fact will ever possibly change the reality that Kovalchuk will never be regarded as highly as Kucherov is. Different tiers of players.

Kovalchuk is like a higher end version of Alexi Kovalev. Or Yashin. Engimatic and skilled as f***. Period.

Whereas Kucherov is now in Federov and Bure territory in terms of historical Russian players and their impact on the game.

I think even that is underselling Kucherov for now.

I know both Bure and Fedorov were great playoff performers in their own right - but I'd argue Kucherov now has the 2 best playoff runs among the 3 (close though), and Kucherov actually has a lot of other strong playoff runs outside of the past 2 as well.

Kucherov definitely has the best individual season among this group - and if you rank top 3 best seasons head to head, he'd come comfortably ahead of both in that comparison too.

Kucherov is starting to near Malkin tier imo. Still lacks longevity, but longevity is usually easier to add than significant peak achievements.

 

[User9992]

I'll go with Yashin myself for play style. Ovi is Ovi. Nothing quite like him tbh.

IDK. Both left wings, 6'3 ft tall, 230 lbs, fast explosive skating, great shot (especially slap shot) & deking (puck carrying).

 

[Samsquanch]

Kucherov is starting to near Malkin tier imo. Still lacks longevity, but longevity is usually easier to add than significant peak achievements.

Agree with the Malkin part. But your kidding yourself about the second part.

Longevity and being dominant for an entire career is a ridiculously hard and important part to the equation at the end of the day.

We've seen countless other peak performances from players that eventually fizzle out before being able to cement themselves as ALL TIME GREATS. Longevity is honestly the real key to greatness.. Use Alexander Mogilny as exhibit A if we want to keep with the Russian theme.

And Kucherov has a ways to go yet (admittedly he can coast to a degree to a HHof career at this point- but your not a hockey legend and Russian GOAT candidate until actually get there).

 

[User9992]

Kovy had one hell of a slap shot, damn

 

[bobholly39]

Agree with the Malkin part. But your kidding yourself about the second part.

Longevity and being dominant is a ridiculously hard and important part to the equation in the end.

We've seen countless other peak performances from players that eventually fizzle out before being able to cement themselves as ALL TIME GREATS. Longevity is honestly the real key to greatness...

By longevity, i don't necessarily mean elite longevity where Kucherov racks up a ton more trophies or 110+ point seasons. I just mean basic longevity. He has 515 career games. If he had ~900 career games, changing nothing to his peak, he'd be close to Malkin imo. So - no need to add ~400 games playing at a ~110+ point pace, just adding enough longevity with a graceful enough decline and no more significant peak achievements, and he's already getting close.

I don't think that type of longevity will be too hard to add. If he doesn't retire and doesn't fall off a cliff, he'll get there. If he does that - he's definitely ahead of both Bure and Fedorov for career. Maybe he needs a bit more for Malkin - but considering the level he's playing at today, he's obviously not about to fall off a cliff either . He probably has a few more elite seasons and playoff runs in his next few years

If and when he surpasses Malkin for best Russian at the NHL level - there would only be Ovechkin ahead.

 

[Samsquanch]

IDK. Both left wings, 6'3 ft tall, 230 lbs, fast explosive skating, great shot (especially slap shot) & deking (puck carrying).

And so was Yashin though... but 2 of these 3 players didnt hit anything most nights physically, or run through players rather than through them (being able to fight through checks is different thing fwiw).

Yashin was an MVP finalist at his best. He was honestly as highly regarded or more than Kovalchuk at his peak, hence the Spezza + Chara trade that he was able to bring back for the Senators.

 

[Samsquanch]

By longevity, i don't necessarily mean elite longevity where Kucherov racks up a ton more trophies or 110+ point seasons. I just mean basic longevity. He has 515 career games. If he had ~900 career games, changing nothing to his peak, he'd be close to Malkin imo. So - no need to add ~400 games playing at a ~110+ point pace, just adding enough longevity with a graceful enough decline and no more significant peak achievements, and he's already getting close.

I don't think that type of longevity will be too hard to add. If he doesn't retire and doesn't fall off a cliff, he'll get there. If he does that - he's definitely ahead of both Bure and Fedorov for career. Maybe he needs a bit more for Malkin - but considering the level he's playing at today, he's obviously not about to fall off a cliff either . He probably has a few more elite seasons and playoff runs in his next few years

If and when he surpasses Malkin for best Russian at the NHL level - there would only be Ovechkin ahead.

Malkin, his stat line, his personal trophies and accomplishments, and his 3 cup rings are all firmly ahead of Kucherov's resume atm. Not close yet. Kuch needs more accomplishments, and he was easily on a deeper team in reality. Malkin and Crosby carried the Penguins entirely. Whereas I dont know if its Vasilevski, Point, Hedman, Stamkos, or Kucherov to praise as the man over in TB.

Another 500 games of coasting doesnt put him ahead.

 

[bobholly39]

Malkin, his stat line, his personal trophies and accomplishments, and his 3 cup rings are all firmly ahead of Kucherov's resume atm. Not close yet. Kuch needs more accomplishments, and he was easily on a deeper team in reality. Malkin and Crosby carried the Penguins entirely. Whereas I dont know if its Vasilevski, Point, Hedman, Stamkos, or Kucherov to praise as the man over in TB.

Another 500 games of coasting doesnt put him ahead.

Another 500 games of coasting doesn't put Kucherov ahead of Malkin. I agree with that, but I still think it would be close. It would put him ahead of both Bure and Fedorov. And considering Kucherov likely has another 500 games, and most probably won't be coasting - there's a good chance he can reach/surpass Malkin. We'll see. I actually think very highly of Malkin, so not trying to undersell him, just trying to give Kucherov his due.

Which, is way, way ahead of Kovalchuk

 

[Samsquanch]

Another 500 games of coasting doesn't put Kucherov ahead of Malkin. I agree with that, but I still think it would be close. It would put him ahead of both Bure and Fedorov. And considering Kucherov likely has another 500 games, and most probably won't be coasting - there's a good chance he can reach/surpass Malkin. We'll see. I actually think very highly of Malkin, so not trying to undersell him, just trying to give Kucherov his due.

Which, is way, way ahead of Kovalchuk

Kucherov will get his due if/when he gets there dude.

Lol for now, you should probably just be satisfied with most people him ranking his current resume alongside of Bure and Fedrov's

Thats like, pretty, pretty good.

 

[Scrantonicity 2]

My head says Kucherov but I also know that Kovalchuk never played on a team or line as good as Kucherov's either.

Kovalchuk seems more unique a player than Kucherov for sure.