Better Player at their Peak: Ilya Kovalchuk vs Nikita Kucherov

[Raccoon Jesus]

Went Kovalchuk simply because I'm biased and he's one of my favorite players of the previous decade. Lots of good reasonable thoughts in here that could sway me though.

I feel like people saying the Thrashers supporting cast sucked are the ones with awful memories. They had no depth, no defense, and no goalie. But their top line talent was fantastic. Marian Hossa, Marc Savard, Dany Heatley, and Ilya Kovalchuk were far from terrible.

Yep, they were very high end (forward) talent, no depth. But Kovy was certainly the focal point.

Kucherov for me, but Kovalchuk was one of the most electric players I ever watched. His grainy SC top 10 is still nuts by todays standards. Guy had one of the best snap shots I've ever seen with speed to burn...Kucherov is leagues better as a play maker though and the trifecta puts his peak over the edge IMO.

Basically how I would see it as well. Kucherov is a much more complete and much more cerebral player. Prime Kovalchuk reminded me of current Mackinnon with less IQ, often just an unstoppable runaway freight train and cyclone of hands and feet. Not to mention physical, he could run you over, and has a few fights on his fight card.

I agree. This is perfectly reasonable.

IMO though, Atlanta let him play however he wanted, put him in every offensive situation and gave him outrageous amounts of PP time. Some people would say that's just good player deployment. But I think that they tweaked the deployment of players like Kovalchuk and Heatley to artificially pump up their stats so that they had high scoring stars to use to promote the team in a new market. Ultimately, that strategy failed as they only made the playoffs once in 11 seasons and still had to relocate. If Kovalchuk had to play properly, if he were on a real team whose goal was to win games instead of market him... would he have posted those stats?

So the problem is more complex. Other players were on better defensive teams, but they also had to contribute and sacrifice their offensive stats. Their teams had game plans that involved winning games, not winning Ilya a Rocket or an Art Ross. It might sound harsh, but I honestly look at this guy's career as a fraud who was artificially propped up for 2/3's of his career.

He had PPG and over PPG seasons in New Jersey, who were a low scoring but competitive team that went on a Cup run, and he was the major force behind it...

 

[CanadienShark]

Kovy is one of my all time favourites and this is clearly Kucherov.

 

[trentmccleary]

He had PPG and over PPG seasons in New Jersey, who were a low scoring but competitive team that went on a Cup run, and he was the major force behind it...

IMHO, his numbers playing for a legitimate team that played to win games doesn't come close to comparing to his most recent Atlanta production.

NHL GPG	Team	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	Pace	G	A	Pts
2.84	Atl 08-10	207	126	110	236	0.61	1.14	82	50	43	93
2.77	NJD 10-13	222	89	112	201	0.40	0.91	82	33	41	74

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There's a huge difference between a 93 point player and a 74 point player.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

IMHO, his numbers playing for a legitimate team that played to win games doesn't come close to comparing to his most recent Atlanta production.

NHL GPG	Team	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	Pace	G	A	Pts
2.84	Atl 08-10	207	126	110	236	0.61	1.14	82	50	43	93
2.77	NJD 10-13	222	89	112	201	0.40	0.91	82	33	41	74

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There's a huge difference between a 93 point player and a 74 point player.

He had 83 in 77, which is an 88 pt pace. It's not that far off. And by the end of NJD term his back was shot.

I think he was a lesser player by that point but it's not like he couldn't score when 'asked to play properly' as evidenced in the 88 pt pace which is right along his career #s. I think most NJD fans will tell you he carried that team.

I guess I'm just saying I think you're right that he was 'turned loose' in ATL in a way he wasn't in NJD but I think it's myth--that followed him around a lot at the time, by the way--that he couldn't play a complete game. He's no Travis Zajac, but he was far from a liability.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I loved Kovy, but Kucherov was absolutely unstoppable in 2019, just like Ovechkin was unstoppable in 2008.

 

[kp61c]

still Kuch.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Kucherov AINEC

It wasn't close when this thread was made but the gap is now larger.

 

[PensandCaps]

The guy with a 128 point year.

 

[Nico Hughes]

Kucherov AINEC

It wasn't close when this thread was made but the gap is now larger.

Kucherov may be the better player historically but he couldnt dream of doing things Kovalchuk could

For example, do you think Kucherov is a better player now than Lindros?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Kucherov may be the better player historically but he couldnt dream of doing things Kovalchuk could

For example, do you think Kucherov is a better player now than Lindros?

I think there's definitely a possibility that Kucherov is better or at least on pace to being a better player than Lindros.

 

[User9992]

Kovalchuk had more raw/natural talent than Kuch. More athletic, faster skater, much better shot, especially slap shot. Ilya was also much better at carrying puck (deking). He was very similiar to Ovi in playstyle: both are 230 lbs athletic monsters who were also fast skaters with a great shots. Kovy was basically poor man's Ovi.

But Kuch became much bettter than Kovalchuk ever was in 2018. Much higher IQ, much better playmaker & point producer.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Kucherov may be the better player historically but he couldnt dream of doing things Kovalchuk could

For example, do you think Kucherov is a better player now than Lindros?

These "things" Kovy could do.. Did it help him win a ross? A hart? A lindsay? Multiple 100pt seasons? Multiple 1st ASTs? Multiple cups? Who cares about "doing things", Kucherov actually produced and stacked up the individual and team hardware. That's the only thing that matters.

 

[Nico Hughes]

These "things" Kovy could do.. Did it help him win a ross? A hart? A lindsay? Multiple 100pt seasons? Multiple 1st ASTs? Multiple cups? Who cares about "doing things", Kucherov actually produced and stacked up the individual and team hardware. That's the only thing that matters.

Hockey is a team sport, you realize

So youre telling me Messier is near a top-10 player all time because he has hardware and totals? Thats silly talk

and idk.. Kovalchuk was only bigger, faster, had a better shot, and was a better 'sole' talent than Kucherov. Kucherov has the more illustrious career; both arent mutually inclusive.

Jack Hughes isnt a better sole talent than Kovalchuk yet I bet hell outproduce him in hardware and totals, because he makes people around him far better. As does Kucherov.

If two players are compared and one can do more on their own and one makes others better than just themselves; than yes, we know which talent was better and, if in better situations, usually does better. Malkin vs Ovechkin is an examplemof this (I have Crosby in his own tier, along with McDavid and Gretzky and Lemieux)

 

[User9992]

Hockey is a team sport, you realize

So youre telling me Messier is near a top-10 player all time because he has hardware and totals? Thats silly talk

and idk.. Kovalchuk was only bigger, faster, had a better shot, and was a better 'sole' talent than Kucherov. Kucherov has the more illustrious career; both arent mutually inclusive.

Jack Hughes isnt a better sole talent than Kovalchuk yet I bet hell outproduce him in hardware and totals, because he makes people around him far better. As does Kucherov.

If two players are compared and one can do more on their own and one makes others better than just themselves; than yes, we know which talent was better and, if in better situations, usually does better. Malkin vs Ovechkin is an examplemof this (I have Crosby in his own tier, along with McDavid and Gretzky and Lemieux)

Crosby & McDavid aren't on the same tier as Lemieux & Gretzky. McDavid at least can join them in the future but Crosby? Hell no! He was never that dominant to begin with. His career is near end but he has only 2 Harts, 3 Ted Lindsays, 2 Art Rosses & two weak Conn Smythes & Maurice Richards. It's much more comparable to Ovi's hardware totals.

I've noticed Canadians tend to overrate Crosby & give him reputational awards. He is nowhere near Gretzky or even Lemieux level dominance.

 

[User9992]

These "things" Kovy could do.. Did it help him win a ross? A hart? A lindsay? Multiple 100pt seasons? Multiple 1st ASTs? Multiple cups? Who cares about "doing things", Kucherov actually produced and stacked up the individual and team hardware. That's the only thing that matters.

Kovy wasn't even better than Hossa who was arguibly better.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Loved Kovy in his prime and as a Devil, it’s Kucherov

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Kovy wasn't even better than Hossa who was arguibly better.

Hossa was a elite 2 way forward for most, if not all, of his career. Kovy wasn’t, he only learned defense playing under Lemaire in 2010-2011 which was 2-3 years before he left for Russia and late in his NHL career in his first stint. Offensively, Kovy was better.

 

[Devil Dancer]

Good poll, this is close.

I'd take Kucherov though. Peak Kovy was a goal scoring machine and a great offensive player, but Kuch is a much better playmaker and still an excellent scorer.

 

[T REX]

Been watching hockey since 5 growing up in detroit...

Kuch...by a wide margin.

Kuch is 2 or 3 moves ahead with the skills

 

[Hockeyholic]

There's no argument for Crosby & McDavid being in a tier with 66 & 99. I think it's safe to say neither has a chance in hell of ever being in that tier.

Kucherov is obviously better. But talent wise, Kovalchuk had it all. He didn't make use of all his God given talent though.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Most people here obviously either just started watching hockey or have a terrible memory because the answer is Kovalchuk and it's not close. He was basically a bigger and faster version of Patrick Kane who either played with a terrible supporting cast or through bad injuries.

The irony here is rich..

 

[Nico Hughes]

There's no argument for Crosby & McDavid being in a tier with 66 & 99. I think it's safe to say neither has a chance in hell of ever being in that tier.

Kucherov is obviously better. But talent wise, Kovalchuk had it all. He didn't make use of all his God given talent though.

How isnt Crosby in that tier? He was usually the best player in the league for over a decade.. is that not equivalent dominance in a much more talented NHL?

 

[Hockeyholic]

How isnt Crosby in that tier? He was usually the best player in the league for over a decade.. is that not equivalent dominance in a much more talented NHL?

Crosby isn't in a tier with Gretzky and Lemieux.....

 

[Nico Hughes]

Crosby isn't in a tier with Gretzky and Lemieux.....

Hmm..

 

[ted2019]

Give Kovalchuk the support that Kucherov has in Tampa and he probably would've never went back to the KHL.