Better Player at their Peak: Ilya Kovalchuk vs Nikita Kucherov

[Five Alarm Fire]

Oh absolutely Kucherov is a big part of Point's success too. I'm not trying to argue the contrary - in terms of converting on offensive zone possession, Kucherov is elite. They work so well as a pair because Point is elite at gaining the offensive zone with possession.

To me though, Point is the more valuable player between the two, because of the importance of play driving. That's essentially the reason for me taking Kovalchuk.

Also, consider that while Kucherov has impressive point totals, he relies an awful lot on secondary assists and PP points.

Look at 5v5 primary points in his art ross campaign:

McDavid 52
Marner 52
Kane 51
Kucherov 50
Crosby 50
Tavares 49
Panarin 48
Gaudreau 47
Point 46

So yeah, he's an excellent offensive player, but even in his peak year he wasn't really separating himself from the pack like some would suggest. His numbers are definitely inflated by his supporting cast, especially on the PP.

Agreed, Point is so good at zone entries that there's no point in having Kucherov handle those responsibilities.

What's interesting with Kucherov is that there are two distinct eras where he had different play styles. Pre-2018 he was more of a play driver. The Triplet line in its heyday thrived off the cycle, and Kucherov was more active in the corners/winning puck battles. In 2017, with Stamkos out, he was doing everything because he had to. To me this is peak Kucherov, even with the Art Ross season in mind.

Everything since is the Kucherov you describe. Absolute weapon on the powerplay, a guy who can convert any opportunity into a goal in a matter of seconds. I apologize in advance for the basketball analogy, but it reminds me of Steph Curry when KD joined the team. Could he run the offense? Sure, but with the luxury of another ball handler, he could create far more havoc off-ball. Kucherov is the same way, he "spreads the ice" and demands attention away from the puck.

 

[Regal]

Oh absolutely Kucherov is a big part of Point's success too. I'm not trying to argue the contrary - in terms of converting on offensive zone possession, Kucherov is elite. They work so well as a pair because Point is elite at gaining the offensive zone with possession.

To me though, Point is the more valuable player between the two, because of the importance of play driving. That's essentially the reason for me taking Kovalchuk.

Also, consider that while Kucherov has impressive point totals, he relies an awful lot on secondary assists and PP points.

Look at 5v5 primary points in his art ross campaign:

McDavid 52
Marner 52
Kane 51
Kucherov 50
Crosby 50
Tavares 49
Panarin 48
Gaudreau 47
Point 46

So yeah, he's an excellent offensive player, but even in his peak year he wasn't really separating himself from the pack like some would suggest. His numbers are definitely inflated by his supporting cast, especially on the PP.

And Kovalchuk relied heavily on absurd PP minutes to get his totals.

 

[bobholly39]

Oh absolutely Kucherov is a big part of Point's success too. I'm not trying to argue the contrary - in terms of converting on offensive zone possession, Kucherov is elite. They work so well as a pair because Point is elite at gaining the offensive zone with possession.

To me though, Point is the more valuable player between the two, because of the importance of play driving. That's essentially the reason for me taking Kovalchuk.

Also, consider that while Kucherov has impressive point totals, he relies an awful lot on secondary assists and PP points.

Look at 5v5 primary points in his art ross campaign:

McDavid 52
Marner 52
Kane 51
Kucherov 50
Crosby 50
Tavares 49
Panarin 48
Gaudreau 47
Point 46

So yeah, he's an excellent offensive player, but even in his peak year he wasn't really separating himself from the pack like some would suggest. His numbers are definitely inflated by his supporting cast, especially on the PP.

In Kovalchuk's best 7 year stretch (2003-2004 to 2009-2010), he has:

The 34th best Even Strength Point scoring season and the 53rd best.

In Kucherov's best 7 year stretch (only stretch of his career really, 2013-2014 to 2019-2020), he has:

The 3rd best Even Strength Point scoring season and the 25th best.

In that 7 year stretch, Kovalchuk has:

The 25th and 46th best point producing season.

Kucherov has the 1st and 10th best point producing seasons in his 7 year stretch

In that 7 year stretch, Kovalchuk has the 18th and 23rd best 'primary point' producing season.
Kucherov in his 7 year stretch has the 3rd and 21st best 'primary point' producing season

By absolutely any metric (outside of purely goal-scoring) - Kucherov destroys Kovalchuk. If you combined all of these metrics together - and consider power play too (you know - as anyone who isn't trying to cherry pick normally would do, simply looking at overall points/offense....) - his lead is grows exponentially.

Kucherov has a much better peak than Kovalchuk.
If we include Playoffs - the gap grows, yet again.

And Kucherov is still mid-peak - odds are he adds even more separation from Kovalchuk as soon as next season

 

[bobholly39]

People forget that Kovalchuk was a defensive force when he played for the Devils and probably the best two way winger outside of Hossa at the time.

His offense had dried up a bit by then, wasn't as good as when younger. You can't just combine the two.

Peak Kovalchuk is either early 2000s, or late 2000s - you can pick whatever year/stretch you want. But you can't combine the best of the 2. And Kucherov is better than either version, by quite a bit.

Yzerman had a 155 point season, and then he won the selke. But those were 10+ years apart, you don't just combine the 2

 

[Romang67]

Peak Kovalchuk wasn't both the best goal scorer in the league except for Ovechkin and a good two-way player. He was one of those things after he moved to the Devils, and the other during his peak in Atlanta.

 

[Gurglesons]

Kucherov easily and I’m a big fan of Kovalchooo

 

[Cootsfanclub]

His offense had dried up a bit by then, wasn't as good as when younger. You can't just combine the two.

Peak Kovalchuk is either early 2000s, or late 2000s - you can pick whatever year/stretch you want. But you can't combine the best of the 2. And Kucherov is better than either version, by quite a bit.

Yzerman had a 155 point season, and then he won the selke. But those were 10+ years apart, you don't just combine the 2

You're right. For some reason I thought Kovy won a hart with the Devils even though he never won one.

 

[Albatros]

And Kovalchuk relied heavily on absurd PP minutes to get his totals.

Minutes that he earned. And killed penalties too.

 

[Plural]

Kuch for me

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gut reaction says Kucherov

 

[Regal]

Minutes that he earned. And killed penalties too.

Earning the minutes or not is irrelevant because we're not comparing him to a player who isn't great on the PP. Kucherov has a great team around him but he also gets his minutes limited because of their depth, whereas Kovalchuk was given loads of ice time as the best player on a bad team. Those things usually tend to even out.

Kovalchuk also rarely killed penalties outside of Jersey. Only one season in Atlanta (03-04) did he average more than 24 seconds on the PK and that was still only 0:59 a game.

 

[authentic]

Kovalchuk at his peak is underrated I believe, if you saw him play he was one of the greatest physical specimens the NHL has seen, sort of an Ovechkin-light. However, Kucherov's production is too much to ignore here.

 

[hamzarocks]

Kucherov AINEC

Kovalchuk was never the best or 2nd best player in the NHL. Frankly was he ever a top 5 player?

 

[Goomba]

This is an example of stat watching and valuing production over the player

In no way shape or form could Kucherov ever tilt the ice the way Kovalchuk could. Kovalchuk was not only much larger but was faster as well, and played with edge

I guess guys who had higher peak point seasons than Lindros are considered better as well, even though we all know Lindros is 99% chance the better player and force on the ice individually than most youd compare him to

 

[Gurglesons]

This is an example of stat watching and valuing production over the player

In no way shape or form could Kucherov ever tilt the ice the way Kovalchuk could. Kovalchuk was not only much larger but was faster as well, and played with edge

I guess guys who had higher peak point seasons than Lindros are considered better as well, even though we all know Lindros is 99% chance the better player and force on the ice individually than most youd compare him to

Kucherov was the best player in two straight Cup runs.

 

[The Macho King]

This is an example of stat watching and valuing production over the player

In no way shape or form could Kucherov ever tilt the ice the way Kovalchuk could. Kovalchuk was not only much larger but was faster as well, and played with edge

I guess guys who had higher peak point seasons than Lindros are considered better as well, even though we all know Lindros is 99% chance the better player and force on the ice individually than most youd compare him to

The purpose of "tilting the ice" is so pucks go into the net.

Where the eye test falls apart is when guys "look" impressive but don't have the production (over large samples) to match how good they look, versus a guy who doesn't "look" impressive but seems to fill the net at an astonishing rate.

I don't give a shit about how Kovalchuk or Lindros or Forsberg or anyone else you throw out there "looks". I want to see what benefit they get from tilting the ice - and that's reflected in the wins column and the scoresheet.

 

[Goomba]

Kucherov was the best player in two straight Cup runs.

He also has one of the best rosters, if not the best, weve seen in the salary cap era

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

This is an example of stat watching and valuing production over the player

In no way shape or form could Kucherov ever tilt the ice the way Kovalchuk could. Kovalchuk was not only much larger but was faster as well, and played with edge

I guess guys who had higher peak point seasons than Lindros are considered better as well, even though we all know Lindros is 99% chance the better player and force on the ice individually than most youd compare him to

People who make posts like this act like Kovalchuk was playing against Sprague Cleghorn lmao

He isn't ancient history.

 

[The Macho King]

He also has one of the best rosters, if not the best, weve seen in the salary cap era

Ah yes - the 2015 Lightning featuring Matt Carle, Andrej Sustr, Jason Garrison, and an 85 year old Brendan Morrow.

 

[Gurglesons]

He also has one of the best rosters, if not the best, weve seen in the salary cap era

Okay? He was the best player on those rosters.

Kovalchuk was an amazing player and 2012 was a defining moment that often gets forgotten from him as a complete player. That being said. He was never at Kucherov's level of being the best player in the league.

 

[Goomba]

The purpose of "tilting the ice" is so pucks go into the net.

Where the eye test falls apart is when guys "look" impressive but don't have the production (over large samples) to match how good they look, versus a guy who doesn't "look" impressive but seems to fill the net at an astonishing rate.

I don't give a shit about how Kovalchuk or Lindros or Forsberg or anyone else you throw out there "looks". I want to see what benefit they get from tilting the ice - and that's reflected in the wins column and the scoresheet.

So you have anyone above Kovalchuk Lindros and Forsberg in points as better talents?

Interesting. So you think Messier is actually the second greatest player ever, dont you?

 

[Goomba]

Ah yes - the 2015 Lightning featuring Matt Carle, Andrej Sustr, Jason Garrison, and an 85 year old Brendan Morrow.

Thats weird, could have sworn they won in 2020

Oh thats right, it wouldnt support your argument

 

[Goomba]

Okay? He was the best player on those rosters.

Kovalchuk was an amazing player and 2012 was a defining moment that often gets forgotten from him as a complete player. That being said. He was never at Kucherov's level of being the best player in the league.

Kucherov has never been the best player in the league

 

[CupInSIX]

I thought Kovalchuk was a bit underrated with the Thrashers, but Kucherov is still better IMO.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Kovalchuk was great, and highly underrated due to team circumstances, but this is clearly Kucherov IMO.