Better future: Buffalo Sabres vs Toronto Maple Leafs

[Sabresruletheschool]

Rielly gets harder minutes in both zone starts and QOC, his partner is worse than Ristolainen's, and he gets way less PP time.

Put Ristolainen's in Rielly's shoes he's a 30 point defensive liability.

He is not. Reillys on a team with good fundamental team defence. Ristolainens on a team that if the puck gets cycled, everyone (except a couple players) forgets what there supposed to do and becomes a free for all. People chase the puck around, 3 people go to the boards leaving guys wide open. And Buffalo spends a lot more time on there end of the ice. Not to mention the meh goaltending to top it off. Reilly didn't all of a sudden just turn into a better player when Babcock, Mathews, Nylander, Marner, Marleau, and Anderson came in.

 

[Martin Skoula]

He is not. Reillys on a team with good fundamental team defence. Ristolainens on a team that if the puck gets cycled, everyone (except a couple players) forgets what there supposed to do and becomes a free for all. People chase the puck around, 3 people go to the boards leaving guys wide open. And Buffalo spends a lot more time on there end of the ice. Not to mention the meh goaltending to top it off. Reilly didn't all of a sudden just turn into a better player when Babcock, Mathews, Nylander, Marner, Marleau, and Anderson came in.

Yes a 22 year old defenseman getting better of his own development is just crazytalk.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

Yes a 22 year old defenseman getting better of his own development is just crazytalk.

So is thinking a guy went from a middling defenceman to a legit #1 and had nothing to do with the way better players around him. Buffalo would not be any better if you swapped Ristolainen and Reilly, and Toronto wouldn't be any worse. I gaurentee it.

 

[Martin Skoula]

So is thinking a guy went from a middling defenceman to a legit #1 and had nothing to do with the way better players around him. Buffalo would not be any better if you swapped Ristolainen and Reilly, and Toronto wouldn't be any worse. I gaurentee it.

He's been playing top shutdown minutes for 3 years now, this season is the first that Babcock started using him on the PP and giving him more freedom to play offensively at even strength.

Reilly's had roughly the same even strength points for 3 years straight, one of them being on a team with a 40-some point Kadri as it's top scorer, the entire change is that he went from 5 PP points to 25 this season. Is that the team getting better or do you think his PP time rising from next to nothing had something to do with that?

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

He's been playing top shutdown minutes for 3 years now, this season is the first that Babcock started using him on the PP and giving him more freedom to play offensively at even strength.

Reilly's had roughly the same even strength points for 3 years straight, one of them being on a team with a 40-some point Kadri as it's top scorer, the entire change is that he went from 5 PP points to 25 this season. Is that the team getting better or do you think his PP time rising from next to nothing had something to do with that?

You don't think the PP got much better with Matthews, Nylander, and Marner? I'm not saying Reilly's not a good defencmen because he is. But his situation is tons better then trying to carry the defence for 28 minutes a night on a tire fire team.

 

[Atomos2]

So is thinking a guy went from a middling defenceman to a legit #1 and had nothing to do with the way better players around him. Buffalo would not be any better if you swapped Ristolainen and Reilly, and Toronto wouldn't be any worse. I gaurentee it.

You'd be paying back everyone you guaranteed that too.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

You'd be paying back everyone you guaranteed that too.

Yeah, I'm sure if Reilly was on Buffalo, he'd be the only + player on the team and look like a stud in his own zone.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You don't think the PP got much better with Matthews, Nylander, and Marner? I'm not saying Reilly's not a good defencmen because he is. But his situation is tons better then trying to carry the defence for 28 minutes a night on a tire fire team.

They were on the team last year too, where's the massive point bump for Rielly?

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

They were on the team last year too, where's the massive point bump for Rielly?

It comes from getting 46 assists on a team that scores a ton compared to 35 assist on the lowest scoring team in the NHL.

 

[Martin Skoula]

It comes from getting 46 assists on a team that scores a ton compared to 35 assist on the lowest scoring team in the NHL.

The entire difference is getting PP time for the first time lmao, his even strength points have stayed stable all 3 years despite massively different qualities of teammates. Risto gets more than half of his points on the PP where he plays almost 2x the amount that Rielly did this year.

Unless you want to tell me that Kadri JVR Bozak and Marner >>>> O'Rielly Reinhart Eichel and Kane.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They really don't blow them out of the water at all. I straight up 1000% would not trade our 6 mentioned core guys for those 6. It's mainly Andersen, the forward depth, and Babcock (in that order) that have separated the two teams for the last couple seasons. The Leafs have been managed better from top to bottom for the last 3 or 4 seasons, while the Sabres appear to just now be finally getting some traction and competent leadership with Botterill running the hockey department. Leafs are way ahead right now but don't get too cocky, things can change fast....

Just comparing 1 to 1:

Matthews>Eichel
Kadri=ROR
Rielly<Dahlin probably, but this is probably super premature
Zaitsev</=Ristolainen
Marner>>>>Mittelstadt
Nylander>>>>Reinhart

The only advantages the Sabres have are Dahlin over Rielly (which I said might be super premature to claim) and a slight advantage for Ristolainen over Zaitsev. The difference between Marner and Nylander vs Mittelstadt and Reinhart is absurd, and Matthews is better than Eichel as well.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

Just comparing 1 to 1:

Matthews>Eichel
Kadri=ROR
Rielly<Dahlin probably, but this is probably super premature
Zaitsev</=Ristolainen
Marner>>>>Mittelstadt
Nylander>>>>Reinhart

The only advantages the Sabres have are Dahlin over Rielly (which I said might be super premature to claim) and a slight advantage for Ristolainen over Zaitsev. The difference between Marner and Nylander vs Mittelstadt and Reinhart is absurd, and Matthews is better than Eichel as well.

Lmao ok. Ristolainen a slight advantage over Zaiysev and Kadri= O'Reilly. And 60 point 20 goal Nylander is >>>>> over 50 point 25 goal Reinhart. Christ..

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

The entire difference is getting PP time for the first time lmao, his even strength points have stayed stable all 3 years despite massively different qualities of teammates. Risto gets more than half of his points on the PP where he plays almost 2x the amount that Rielly did this year.

Unless you want to tell me that Kadri JVR Bozak and Marner >>>> O'Rielly Reinhart Eichel and Kane.

I don't get the point your trying to make.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Lmao ok. Ristolainen a slight advantage over Zaiysev

Both are defensively challenged #3 OFD, and Ristolainen has a higher upside than Zaitsev. Don't see the problem there.

and Kadri= O'Reilly.

Kadri and ROR have the same amount of points in the last 2 years combined, both had 1 55 point season and both had 1 61 point season in the last 2 years. Both are lower end 2-way 1st line centers. Again, I don't see the problem there. ROR has a longer track record of being a 1st line center, but the players today are just about equal overall.

And 60 point 20 goal Nylander is >>>>> over 50 point 25 goal Reinhart. Christ..

Nylander is better currently and I feel like his upside is a lot higher. I just don't see that high of upside for Reinhart, Nylander's potential seems a lot higher. Reinhart's potential to me seems to be a 2-way 1st line winger or center, Nylander's upside seems to be one of the league's premier offensive wingers. That doesn't mean that Nylander will reach that, I just think his potential is a lot higher. And if that's such a problem, would you want me to just switch up Marner and Nylander there and call it a day? Then it would be a 70 point, 21 year old vs a 50 point, 22 year old.

 

[Snippit]

Kadri = ROR

Sorry credibility gone there buddy. Even most Leafs fans know ROR is better.

 

[Snippit]

Oh my god I just saw the Risto and Zaitsev comparison.

Jesus.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

Both are defensively challenged #3 OFD, and Ristolainen has a higher upside than Zaitsev. Don't see the problem there.



Kadri and ROR have the same amount of points in the last 2 years combined, both had 1 55 point season and both had 1 61 point season in the last 2 years. Both are lower end 2-way 1st line centers. Again, I don't see the problem there. ROR has a longer track record of being a 1st line center, but the players today are just about equal overall.



Nylander is better currently and I feel like his upside is a lot higher. I just don't see that high of upside for Reinhart, Nylander's potential seems a lot higher. Reinhart's potential to me seems to be a 2-way 1st line winger or center, Nylander's upside seems to be one of the league's premier offensive wingers. That doesn't mean that Nylander will reach that, I just think his potential is a lot higher. And if that's such a problem, would you want me to just switch up Marner and Nylander there and call it a day? Then it would be a 70 point, 21 year old vs a 50 point, 22 year old.

You must watch a lot of hockey. So tell me exactly the deficiencies is Ristolainen's defensive game please. And be specific because I want to know what I'm missing when I watch him play every game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kadri = ROR

Sorry credibility gone there buddy. Even most Leafs fans know ROR is better.

I guess actual performances on the ice don't matter, since their performances in the last 2 years have been more or less identical. If it's so wrong to say they're equal, what makes ROR better than Kadri? Because from what I'm seeing, both produce around the same (ROR is at 62 points/82 games, Kadri is at 59 points/82 games in the last 2 years), both are being used in super defensively heavy roles (Kadri is below a 40% offensive zone start%, ROR is at about 44%) and both have really good possession stats considering how heavy of Dzone starts they get. So what makes ROR better than Kadri today? Because they look pretty damn similar in the last 2 years. And no, just saying "everything thinks so" isn't an argument.

I have no stake in this, I'm not a fan of either the Sabres or Leafs. I'm just genuinely curious to see what makes ROR better than Kadri at this point, because there's nothing that makes me think that statistically.

You must watch a lot of hockey. So tell me exactly the deficiencies is Ristolainen's defensive game please. And be specific because I want to know what I'm missing when I watch him play every game.

His shot suppression stats are insanely bad and he gives up a **** load of goals, so that's 2 good places to start to point out his defensive issues. His shot suppression is so bad that his 2015-2017 HERO chart has him at a 0 out of 10 in terms of shot suppression.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

I guess actual performances on the ice don't matter, since their performances in the last 2 years have been more or less identical. If it's so wrong to say they're equal, what makes ROR better than Kadri? Because from what I'm seeing, both produce around the same (ROR is at 62 points/82 games, Kadri is at 59 points/82 games in the last 2 years), both are being used in super defensively heavy roles (Kadri is below a 40% offensive zone start%, ROR is at about 44%) and both have really good possession stats considering how heavy of Dzone starts they get. So what makes ROR better than Kadri today? Because they look pretty damn similar in the last 2 years. And no, just saying "everything thinks so" isn't an argument.



His shot suppression stats are bad and he gives up a **** load of goals, so that's 2 good places to start to point out his defensive issues.

That's not specific. That's looking at stats and guessing. Ristolainen tends to keep the players to the outside. Not often to players come in and get a good chance from a high danger area. And if you watch the Sabers games you'd see that most of these goals aren't because Ristolainen isn't doing his job. Its a team game and the team needs to play defence. Most of the goals scored on Buffalo is a direct result of a forward missing his assignment leaving guys wide open for tip ins, high danger shots, one timers and rebounds with a mediocre goalie. Ristolainen just happens to be out there because Ristolainens always out there.

 

[Snippit]

The fact that they've put up identical offensive numbers while O'Reilly is on a significantly worse offensive team should tell you all that you need to know.

Not to mention ROR is the #1 face-off guy in the league and has long been considered one of the top defensive forwards. He's finished every year well above Kadri in Selke voting (Kadri only has two top 50 finishes).

I'm not saying that Kadri hasn't closed the gap in the last 2 years, but this is pretty clearly ROR in front.

 

[Royal Thunder]

Just comparing 1 to 1:

Matthews>Eichel
Kadri=ROR
Rielly<Dahlin probably, but this is probably super premature
Zaitsev</=Ristolainen
Marner>>>>Mittelstadt
Nylander>>>>Reinhart

The only advantages the Sabres have are Dahlin over Rielly (which I said might be super premature to claim) and a slight advantage for Ristolainen over Zaitsev. The difference between Marner and Nylander vs Mittelstadt and Reinhart is absurd, and Matthews is better than Eichel as well.

Eichel>=Matthews
ROR>Kadri
Risto>Zaitsev
Marner>>Mittlestadt (premature)
Dahlin>>>>Reilly (premature)
Nylander>=Reinhart

Marner is a great player. Nylander and Reinhart are a tier below for now but are pretty close to each other.

 

[Atomos2]

The fact that they've put up identical offensive numbers while O'Reilly is on a significantly worse offensive team should tell you all that you need to know.

Not to mention ROR is the #1 face-off guy in the league and has long been considered one of the top defensive forwards. He's finished every year well above Kadri in Selke voting (Kadri only has two top 50 finishes).

I'm not saying that Kadri hasn't closed the gap in the last 2 years, but this is pretty clearly ROR in front.

Bring in contracts and it becomes basically equal

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

Eichel>=Matthews
ROR>Kadri
Risto>Zaitsev
Marner>>Mittlestadt (premature)
Dahlin>>>>Reilly (premature)
Nylander>=Reinhart

Marner is a great player. Nylander and Reinhart are a tier below for now but are pretty close to each other.

I would take two arrows away from Dahlin, add two to Ristolainen.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Both are defensively challenged #3 OFD, and Ristolainen has a higher upside than Zaitsev. Don't see the problem there.



Kadri and ROR have the same amount of points in the last 2 years combined, both had 1 55 point season and both had 1 61 point season in the last 2 years. Both are lower end 2-way 1st line centers. Again, I don't see the problem there. ROR has a longer track record of being a 1st line center, but the players today are just about equal overall.



Nylander is better currently and I feel like his upside is a lot higher. I just don't see that high of upside for Reinhart, Nylander's potential seems a lot higher. Reinhart's potential to me seems to be a 2-way 1st line winger or center, Nylander's upside seems to be one of the league's premier offensive wingers. That doesn't mean that Nylander will reach that, I just think his potential is a lot higher. And if that's such a problem, would you want me to just switch up Marner and Nylander there and call it a day? Then it would be a 70 point, 21 year old vs a 50 point, 22 year old.

I will be honest all things being equal I would rather have ROR over Kadri, thing is all things are not equal.

ROR 5 more years 7.5 million per year on the cap.

Kadri 4 more years at 4.5 million per year on the cap

That is arguably the best non ELC contract in the NHL and it runs for 4 more years

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Eichel>=Matthews
ROR>Kadri
Risto>Zaitsev
Marner>>Mittlestadt (premature)
Dahlin>>>>Reilly (premature)
Nylander>=Reinhart

Marner is a great player. Nylander and Reinhart are a tier below for now but are pretty close to each other.

Eichel has never been equal to Matthews at any point in their career.

Let me know when Eichel wins a major award, or finishes above a PPG, or makes the playoffs, or stops finishing last place.

Something, anything