Better career crosby vs ovechkin

[Rhiessan71]

I don't see where Zetterberg was brought up

Crosby is now the leader in playoff points since he entered the league, despite playing almost 20 fewer games than 2nd place Zetterberg.

and how his stats could be used to boost OV, but all you have showed is that Crosby is far superior in the first round. The rest of the rounds are a wash.

How exactly does that make Zetterberg superior?

A) Crosby beats up on inferior first round teams and there is where his only advantage over Zetts lies.
B) Zetterberg's production in rounds 2, 3 and 4 is slightly above Crosby's
C) All the while, Zetterberg is also playing a shutdown role

 

[Beau Knows]

A) Crosby beats up on inferior first round teams and there is where his only advantage over Zetts lies.
B) Zetterberg's production in rounds 2, 3 and 4 is slightly above Crosby's

Round 1: Crosby (1.36) over Zetterberg (0.96)
Round 2: Crosby (1.14) over Zetterberg (1.10)
Round 3: Crosby (1.07) over Zetterberg (1.05)
Round 4: Zetterberg (0.923) over Crosby (0.69)
Total: Crosby (1.23) over Zetterberg (0.92)

Zetterbergs production is only better than Crosby's in round 4. Every other round Crosby is ahead.

Zetterberg has lost in the 1st round 4 times in his career in 11 post-seasons, despite his team winning their division 7 times. Crosby has lost only 2 times in the first round in his career in 7 post-seasons, while his team has won their division 3 times. It's almost like the 1st round counts and winning isn't automatic. If Zetterberg had produced at a 111 point pace in the 1st round like Crosby has his team may have advanced to the 2nd round more frequently.

So to recap:

-Zetterberg's production does not actually increase as he goes deeper into the playoffs.

-Crosby's production in rounds 1-4 is consistent with other HHOF players like Yzerman.

-Ovechkin has never playerd in rounds 3 or 4 and has been worse in the first 2 rounds than Crosby has.

-Crosby produces better than Zetterberg does in 3 out of 4 rounds, and in all 4 rounds combined by a lot.

-If you exclude first round stats for Crosby for some insane reason, his ppg is almost identical to Ovechkin's. Despite Ovechkin never playing in a 3rd or 4th round series and getting to keep his 1st round stats.


So again how is post-season play not in favor of Crosby by a large margin?

 

[daver]

A) Crosby beats up on inferior first round teams and there is where his only advantage over Zetts lies.

A)Pretty big advantage when 40% of their playoff games have been first round games.

B)Wouldn't Zetterberg have had the same opportunity to beat up on inferior first round teams?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Wrong and in fact it's 5 consecutive years and not just 4.

Pens missed the playoffs in one of those years, you were the guy using the 4 consecutive (or 4 last playoffs to sue your exact words)

Between 1995-96 and 1999-00 (Jagr at his best basically) he had 68 Pts in 49 playoff games which is a PPG of 1.39. If you want to add his 1994-95 playoff run as well to give Jagr a similar amount of games played, he scored 83 Pts in 61 playoff games, still a PPG of 1.36 which still beats Crosby's best PPG for a 3 year stretch.

you do realize that scoring rates in the playoffs haven't actually increased in Sid's time in the NHL, from some of those higher scoring years you are mentioning for Jagr right? Or maybe not.

also playing with the likes of Ronny franchise and a guy named Mario is going to help one's numbers a teeny bit too right?

By that token, even during Crosby's 3 best consecutive playoff seasons (I won't even use 4 to penalize him) he was at best a 1.35 PPG player (77 Pts in 57 games).

Well if scoring rates and GP are consistent then it would mean a lot more but they aren't so it really isn't.

And this is just actual scoring Sid brings a lot more to the table, in terms of all around play, in the playoffs than AO and even guys like Malkin and Jagr.

Most here can see why Sid gets micro analyzed in the manner above and can also see through it as well, it's clear as day.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You mean besides the fact that all of his 16 games in the finals are covered by being his rookie year, his second year in the League and when he was 41 years old?

Well in his 2nd year Jagr was given a pretty big role in those playoffs with Tochett and Mullen missing huge chunks of time. It's not like Sid was some grizzled veteran when he faced thsoe Dats and Zetts led Red wings in his 2 SC finals either right?

The point is pretty clear, it generally gets hard to maintain pace the deeper one goes into the playoffs, at least for the last 20ish years or so.

Like I realise this is going to come as a shock to everyone that Jagr at ages 40-41 was only able to produce 18 points in 33 PO games and that as a rookie was only able to produce 13 points in 24 games
How much does Jagr's rookie season + his 40 and 41 year old seasons skew those numbers of yours.
While at the same time, we're comparing them to Crosby's prime who didn't make the PO's in his rookie year and certain;y hasn't hit 40 years old yet.

well it would be more fair and productive to evaluate and compare their 1st 9 years in the league up to this point right?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

well it would be more fair and productive to evaluate and compare their 1st 9 years in the league up to this point right?

Probably. Just in case, we'll need some starting numbers:

Regular Season
Jagr: 862 points in 662 games (1.30 PPG)
Crosby: 769 points in 550 games (1.40 PPG)

Playoffs
Jagr: 24 points in 21 games (1.14 PPG)
Crosby: 31 points in 24 games (1.29 PPG)

 

[Beau Knows]

Playoff points by players 26 and under:

1. Wayne Gretzky* 101GP - 250P
2. Jari Kurri* 98 GP - 135P
3. Bryan Trottier* 117GP - 134P
4. Mike Bossy* 89GP - 123P
5. Mark Messier* 100GP - 123P
6. Glenn Anderson* 98GP - 120P
7. Jaromir Jagr 113GP - 119P
8. Sidney Crosby 92GP - 114P
9. Paul Coffey* 94GP - 103P
10. Guy Lafleur* 82GP - 97P

*denotes HHOFer

Pretty good company...

 

[livewell68]

Probably. Just in case, we'll need some starting numbers:

Regular Season
Jagr: 862 points in 662 games (1.30 PPG)
Crosby: 769 points in 550 games (1.40 PPG)

Playoffs
Jagr: 24 points in 21 games (1.14 PPG)
Crosby: 31 points in 24 games (1.29 PPG)

Maintaining such a high PPG while still playing in 112 more games than Crosby is amazing.

Where did you get those playoff numbers from?

BTW, considering Jagr was stuck playing 4th and 3rd line minutes in his first 2 seasons in the NHL and he didn't hit a PPG pace until his 3rd season when he was playing 3rd line minutes most nights, it's pretty amazing that Jagr's PPG is as high as it is in his first 9 seasons. Which goes back to what I have been saying all along "Crosby has yet to reach Jagr's level in his peak and may never get there".

If people forgot, by his 11th season in the NHL, he had 1079 Pts in 806 games (1.34 PPG). Now that's sheer domination.

 

[livewell68]

As it likes to be pointed out by another poster, Crosby scores more in earlier rounds. Jagr's stats are, save for one series, from the 1st and 2nd rounds. Also his season with Mario in a higher scoring period needs to be removed as an outlier. (I won't even call you out for not including 2000/01).

If you add in these dynamics, Crosby comes out on top.

Jagr and Lemieux rarely ever played on the same line and they only got evenstrength time together when the game was close and they were down a goal trying to get back in the game in 3rd periods. Jagr and Lemieux played on the same line about as often as Crosby and Malkin play on the same line.

I find it very hyprocritical to single Jagr out because he "apparently played with Lemieux" while the very same player who you so vehemently always defend has this player named Malkin who not only occasionally plays on his line but also shares every single powerplay with him, sometimes for a whole 2 minutes at a time.

Until 1996-97, Jagr and Lemieux always played on separate lines and by then Jagr was as good as Lemieux for different reasons (Jagr getting better and Lemieux getting older and playing through a bad back).

As for the 2000-01 playoffs, Jagr was playing with a very bad left shooting shoulder for the whole playoffs, an injury that was thought to have needed surgery initially. It's not like he scored 84 Pts in his last 45 games (1.88 PPG) only to suddenly stop scoring because his talent had left him. Crosby always gets a pass because of injuries but the difference between him and Jagr is that Jagr almost always played through injuries and wasn't handled with baby gloves.

"It's playoff time and I'm not going to tell," Jagr said. "I know it might look funny to people, that it's a charley horse. There are some other things beside that, but I'm not going to tell anybody."

Jagr also has a sore groin -- the same injury that kept him out of four games against New Jersey in the 1999 playoffs -- and either a bruised or separated shoulder that he aggravated in a 3-0 victory in Buffalo on Thursday.

The injury which has knocked right winger Jaromir Jagr out of the Penguins' lineup for the past two Stanley Cup playoff games is a strained shoulder and not a charley horse, as team officials had been insisting for four days.

That much became abundantly obvious yesterday, during the morning skate for Game 3 of the Penguins' second-round series with the Buffalo Sabres at Mellon Arena. Jagr skated and stickhandled with no difficulty, but he couldn't muster the strength to attempt a shot.

"I can handle the puck, so that's not the problem," he said. "But if you cannot shoot, you cannot play. That's the bottom line. This is not peewee hockey. You cannot take the puck and skate from one end to the other. You have to be able to have a good shot to score goals or create some scoring chances. I'm just not able to do it right now."

 

[Beau Knows]

What exactly does Jagr have to do with Crosby or Ovechkin?

 

[livewell68]

What exactly does Jagr have to do with Crosby or Ovechkin?

Well I'm responding to Daver who always seems to bring Jagr up in Crosby discussions in an attempt to say "If Crosby is as good or better than Jagr then why is Crosby being compared to Malkin and or Ovechkin" so obviously I have to respond to that.

 

[Killion]

^^^ Ya, understood. Didnt like seeing this thread take a Jagr Turn but we indulged. Please though, return to the topic...

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Maintaining such a high PPG while still playing in 112 more games than Crosby is amazing.

Where did you get those playoff numbers from?

hockeyreference; same tool I used to get this list, which comes into play next.

If people forgot, by his 11th season in the NHL, he had 1079 Pts in 806 games (1.34 PPG). Now that's sheer domination.

"Sheer domination"... a whopping 65 points more than Sakic over those 11 years, or less than 6 points/season. Only 10 points/season more than Adam Oates over the same 11 years, too. And he still had a lower PPG than Gretzky, Lemieux, and Lindros over the years they overlapped during the same 11 year period, btw.

 

[Beau Knows]

-Crosby has points in 66% of his playoff games.
-Ovechkin has points in 67% of his playoff games.

So they are both very close in terms of consistency in getting on the board (not factoring in Ovechkin not playing in the 3rd and 4th round).

The big difference comes from multipoint playoff games:

-Crosby has 2 or more points in 42 games, 45% of his games.
-Ovechkin has 2 or more points in 16 games, 27% of his games.

In fact since 1987 (that's when hockey-reference starts tracking individual games), Crosby has the 9th most multipoint playoff games. Every player with more has played more playoff games than he has. Of the 8 players ahead of him, 5 are in the HHOF and the other 3 will be one day.

mulitpoint playoff games

 

[Plural]

I don't see how the Ovechkin vs. Crosby debate on playoffs is fruitful. Not anymore it isn't. At their best, both were pretty awesome. Gun to my head, I am not sure which one was more deadly at their best.

Crosby has had better success and consistency on high level. Both playoffs and RS. Of course the injury case needs to be taken in to account.

For five years, Ovechkin was at least as good as Crosby. For two years Ovechkin was doing something else than he used to do and Crosby was playing the game with his PS3. For last two seasons, is there really any doubt? Crosby all the way.

 

[Swept In Seven]

Crosby is objectively better even in spite of his injuries, He is clearly ahead of Ovi everywhere other than scoring

 

[Plural]

Crosby is objectively better even in spite of his injuries, He is clearly ahead of Ovi everywhere other than scoring

He has shown ability to constantly stay at the high level. I am not sure Crosby's best is that much better than Ovechkin's best. But in my opinion, the consistency is enough to pull him ahead. For one season peak, it's a toss up. Well maybe it's Ovechkin. For three years, give me Ovechkin. For five years, i'd side with Ovechkin too, but barely. For career, give me Crosby.

But I still find it amazing that since OV joined the league, he has more than 100 goals on the 2nd scorer. That is more than 25% higher number than the 2nd, Iginla. One trick pony or not, that is a resume of top-10 goal scorer of all-time.

 

[Beau Knows]

But I still find it amazing that since OV joined the league, he has more than 100 goals on the 2nd scorer. That is more than 25% higher number than the 2nd, Iginla. One trick pony or not, that is a resume of top-10 goal scorer of all-time.

It's amazing for sure, and he is clearly one of the best snipers in history. Crosby (partly due to injuries) doesn't have that one area of his game that is so far ahead of everyone else like Ovechkin does.

He is just really good-elite at pretty much everything. He's ahead of Thornton in assists per game since he entered the league and has 104 fewer assists in 148 fewer games in that span. And he is 3rd in goals per game among active players since he entered the league.

Ovechkin mind you is still 18th in assists per game among active players since he entered the league, which is of course quite good.

 

[66871]

I'd say if their careers ended right now it's more or less even.

The interesting thing is that Sid is two years younger than Ovi (not going to look it up, I could be wrong). So what will he do with those two 'bonus years' or will they retire at more or less the same time. I could see Ovi hanging in the league a bit longer if he wanted to simply because he is such a great sniper. For Sid's productivity relies a lot on his body strength and so he could fade a bit sooner.

 

[Skobel24]

Crosby, no contest. He's actually won Team Awards, not just individual regular season awards.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Round 1: Crosby (1.36) over Zetterberg (0.96)
Round 2: Crosby (1.14) over Zetterberg (1.10)
Round 3: Crosby (1.07) over Zetterberg (1.05)
Round 4: Zetterberg (0.923) over Crosby (0.69)
Total: Crosby (1.23) over Zetterberg (0.92)

Zetterbergs production is only better than Crosby's in round 4. Every other round Crosby is ahead.

Zetterberg has lost in the 1st round 4 times in his career in 11 post-seasons, despite his team winning their division 7 times. Crosby has lost only 2 times in the first round in his career in 7 post-seasons, while his team has won their division 3 times. It's almost like the 1st round counts and winning isn't automatic. If Zetterberg had produced at a 111 point pace in the 1st round like Crosby has his team may have advanced to the 2nd round more frequently.

So to recap:

-Zetterberg's production does not actually increase as he goes deeper into the playoffs.

-Crosby's production in rounds 1-4 is consistent with other HHOF players like Yzerman.

-Ovechkin has never playerd in rounds 3 or 4 and has been worse in the first 2 rounds than Crosby has.

-Crosby produces better than Zetterberg does in 3 out of 4 rounds, and in all 4 rounds combined by a lot.

-If you exclude first round stats for Crosby for some insane reason, his ppg is almost identical to Ovechkin's. Despite Ovechkin never playing in a 3rd or 4th round series and getting to keep his 1st round stats.


So again how is post-season play not in favor of Crosby by a large margin?

Well that ended that argument. Thanks for doing the work of compiling those stats. Your post ranks up there with the EM71 post that nipped in the bud the whole "Secondary Sid" argument.

 

[Regal]

As for the 2000-01 playoffs, Jagr was playing with a very bad left shooting shoulder for the whole playoffs, an injury that was thought to have needed surgery initially. It's not like he scored 84 Pts in his last 45 games (1.88 PPG) only to suddenly stop scoring because his talent had left him. Crosby always gets a pass because of injuries but the difference between him and Jagr is that Jagr almost always played through injuries and wasn't handled with baby gloves.

I don't want to send this onto another Jagr road, but I've seen you bring this up a number of times, and I think just because they were very careful with Crosby's concussion (or neck problem) does not mean he hasn't played through injuries before. He came back from the broken jaw last year which I'm sure wasn't 100 percent and he's looked like he's been dealing with an injury the last part of the season leading into the playoffs this year. I know you're a Jagr fan, which means you know a lot about his injury history, but that also means you're biased toward his injury struggles because you might not know about what other guys were dealing with when they were struggling.

 

[livewell68]

I don't want to send this onto another Jagr road, but I've seen you bring this up a number of times, and I think just because they were very careful with Crosby's concussion (or neck problem) does not mean he hasn't played through injuries before. He came back from the broken jaw last year which I'm sure wasn't 100 percent and he's looked like he's been dealing with an injury the last part of the season leading into the playoffs this year. I know you're a Jagr fan, which means you know a lot about his injury history, but that also means you're biased toward his injury struggles because you might not know about what other guys were dealing with when they were struggling.

I admit I was been insensitive and harsh in accusing Crosby of not playing through injuries. He did have possibly a career threatening injury with the concussion/ neck problems and the Penguins as they should were extra careful in handling the situation and making sure he was cleared to play.

 

[Rhiessan71]

9 points, 1 goal and a -4 and another failure to make it past the second round these playoffs to add to OV's...err...Crosby's legacy

 

[livewell68]

9 points, 1 goal and a -4 and another failure to make it past the second round these playoffs to add to OV's...err...Crosby's legacy

It has to be an injury.

I mean it was an injury last playoff against Boston.