Better career crosby vs ovechkin

[Rhiessan71]

By the same criteria you mean:

Crosby missed games? - "Tough Nuggets"

Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares missed games? - "They need to be paced out to show that Crosby's win this year wasn't as great as the difference in points would indicate."

Yeah, sounds about the same.

No, I mean tough nuggets by the criteria that anytime someone other than Crosby wins the Art Ross it's because Crosby was injured that comes out of your mouth over and over throughout this thread.

By the criteria that supposedly Crosby should have 5 Art Ross in his trophy case now instead of 2.
That he would've won in '11 and he prolly would have but saying he would've had 132 points while doing it is a leap.
He had 66 points in 41 games and was on pace for 132 points. It's a huge difference!
This past season at the 41 game mark he had 58 points. He was on pace for 116 but that's NOT what happened, he finished the season with 46 points in his final 39 games for 104 points.

I can agree that this season would prolly have been his 4th, but I can't agree that he actually would have beat Malkin in 2012, just like he DIDN'T beat Malkin in 2009.

The biggest thing I took offense to that you posted was your brushing off of Malkin's '12 Art Ross.
The ONLY way one could brush it off like that is by wearing Crosby coloured glassed.

 

[Beau Knows]

Crosby is now the leader in playoff points since he entered the league, despite playing almost 20 fewer games than 2nd place Zetterberg.

 

[livewell68]

Crosby is now the leader in playoff points since he entered the league, despite playing almost 20 fewer games than 2nd place Zetterberg.

All while his PPG drops by each passing game. I wonder if in 4 years' time he will still be above PPG in the playoffs.

 

[Plural]

Crosby is now the leader in playoff points since he entered the league, despite playing almost 20 fewer games than 2nd place Zetterberg.

A true testament on the high octane offense he showed in his first years. If player can be "underwhelming" in his past two playoffs and still manage that.

Crosby is getting a lot of flak right now and some people are even calling him a playoff choker. He has proven to be more than capable in the post-season. This year he has been bad tough.

 

[Plural]

All while his PPG drops by each passing game. I wonder if in 4 years' time he will still be above PPG in the playoffs.

He most certainly will be. Don't get crazy here. He could play 21 games without a point and remain PPG.

 

[Beau Knows]

All while his PPG drops by each passing game. I wonder if in 4 years' time he will still be above PPG in the playoffs.

Ovechkin's playoff numbers have fallen off much more than Crosby's. Ovechkin has 11 points in 21 post-season games since 2011. Crosby has 30 points in 29 games in that same span.

He has 51 more points than Ovechkin in only 33 more games, meaning Ovechkin would have to play those 33 extra games at a 1.55 ppg rate to tie Crosby's career numbers.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

All while his PPG drops by each passing game. I wonder if in 4 years' time he will still be above PPG in the playoffs.

Show some respect to a two time mvp in crosby

 

[livewell68]

Show some respect to a two time mvp in crosby

Huh? Did I miss something here?

Last time I checked, the only Hart trophy Crosby has was from the 2006-07 season.

 

[Rhiessan71]

A true testament on the high octane offense he showed in his first years. If player can be "underwhelming" in his past two playoffs and still manage that.

Crosby is getting a lot of flak right now and some people are even calling him a playoff choker. He has proven to be more than capable in the post-season. This year he has been bad tough.

Saying that he's a Choker is going too far.
He's not but he's also not the top playoff performer that his points totals make him out to be either.
His point totals are padded by a lot of First round mismatches where he has run up his totals and then has dropped off substantially in the following rounds.

Crosby
Round 1: GP-38 P-52
Round 2: GP27 P-31
Round 3: GP-13 P-14
SCF: GP-13 P-9

Now compare that to Zetterberg who one has to remember is also playing in a shutdown role.
Round 1: GP-50 P-48
Round 2: GP-29 P-32
Round 3: GP-17 P-18
SCF: GP-13 P-12

With Zetts you actually see his production get slightly better the deeper he goes while Crosby's production drops.

Again, it's not that Crosby is a choker, he's just not the bigtime playoff point producer that his First round points production makes him out to be either.

 

[Plural]

Huh? Did I miss something here?

Last time I checked, the only Hart trophy Crosby has was from the 2006-07 season.

I think he is on purpose including Crosby's this year Hart, which he will win of course.

 

[livewell68]

I think he is on purpose including Crosby's this year Hart, which he will win of course.

It's not a slam dunk. I think if the Hart is awarded to the correct player then Giroux would win it.

How often does the Hart go to the player having scored the most points on the better team?

Case in point 2005-06.

If he wins it, I have no qualms with it despite the fact that I think the lack of high scoring players and elite talent compared to 15-25 years ago is alarming.

 

[livewell68]

Saying that he's a Choker is going too far.
He's not but he's also not the top playoff performer that his points totals make him out to be either.
His point totals are padded by a lot of First round mismatches where he has run up his totals and then has dropped off substantially in the following rounds.

Crosby
Round 1: GP-38 P-52
Round 2: GP27 P-31
Round 3: GP-13 P-14
SCF: GP-13 P-9

Now compare that to Zetterberg who one has to remember is also playing in a shutdown role.
Round 1: GP-50 P-48
Round 2: GP-29 P-32
Round 3: GP-17 P-18
SCF: GP-13 P-12

With Zetts you actually see his production get slightly better the deeper he goes while Crosby's production drops.

Again, it's not that Crosby is a choker, he's just not the bigtime playoff point producer that his First round points production makes him out to be either.

I have already touched upon this earlier this season. When I tried to demonstrate that Crosby tends to beat up on lesser opponents in the first rounds of the playoffs while usually disappearing and being underwhelming in the later rounds when playing tougher opponents, I was laughed at and called a Crosby hater but the stats are undeniable.

Ovechkin is usually always keyed up by opposing teams while the Penguins can spread out the coverage by having Malkin and Crosby play on different lines.

Maybe Ovechkin is no longer the player he once but maybe a change of management and moving towards a different direction for the organization might be the spark that reignites Ovechkin's fire.

 

[Beau Knows]

It's not a slam dunk. I think if the Hart is awarded to the correct player then Giroux would win it.

Ivanko added up all the votes from the writers who released their ballots. 28 voters have already been accounted for and here were the results:

Hart (28 ballots)

1. Sidney Crosby (25-3-0-0-0) 271
2. Ryan Getzlaf (2-18-6-2-0) 182
3. Claude Giroux (0-6-8-9-2) 111
4. Semyon Varlamov (1-2-7-3-2) 70
5. Patrice Bergeron (0-0-3-2-4) 25
6. Anze Kopitar (0-0-1-3-1) 15
7. Jamie Benn (0-0-1-2-3) 14
8. Tyler Seguin (0-0-1-2-2) 13
9. Joe Pavelski (0-0-1-1-3) 11
10. Jonathan Toews (0-0-1-0-2) 7
11. Ben Bishop (0-0-0-1-3) 6
12. Alex Steen (0-0-0-1-1) 4
13-14. Corey Perry (0-0-0-1-0) 3
13-14. Gustav Nyquist (0-0-0-1-0) 3
15. Carey Price (0-0-0-0-2) 2
16-17. Shea Weber (0-0-0-0-1) 1
16-17. Duncan Keith (0-0-0-0-1) 1

Crosby should, and will win. Giroux didn't even receive a 1st place vote from any of those 28 voters.

 

[livewell68]

Ivanko added up all the votes from the writers who released their ballots. 28 voters have already been accounted for and here were the results:

Hart (28 ballots)

1. Sidney Crosby (25-3-0-0-0) 271
2. Ryan Getzlaf (2-18-6-2-0) 182
3. Claude Giroux (0-6-8-9-2) 111
4. Semyon Varlamov (1-2-7-3-2) 70
5. Patrice Bergeron (0-0-3-2-4) 25
6. Anze Kopitar (0-0-1-3-1) 15
7. Jamie Benn (0-0-1-2-3) 14
8. Tyler Seguin (0-0-1-2-2) 13
9. Joe Pavelski (0-0-1-1-3) 11
10. Jonathan Toews (0-0-1-0-2) 7
11. Ben Bishop (0-0-0-1-3) 6
12. Alex Steen (0-0-0-1-1) 4
13-14. Corey Perry (0-0-0-1-0) 3
13-14. Gustav Nyquist (0-0-0-1-0) 3
15. Carey Price (0-0-0-0-2) 2
16-17. Shea Weber (0-0-0-0-1) 1
16-17. Duncan Keith (0-0-0-0-1) 1

Crosby should, and will win. Giroux didn't even receive a 1st place vote from any of those 28 voters.

Please go back to the rest of my post.

Outside of this season, in every season post-lockout, there has always been a legitimate contender for the Hart, Art Ross and Rocket trophies. Heck even in 2010-11 when Daniel Sedin won the Hart, Perry scored 50 goals, barely lost the Art Ross and won the Art Ross.

When Malkin won the Art Ross and Hart in 2011-12 Stamkos was healthy and had his best season.

Crosby never beat a fully healthy Stamkos, Malkin or Tavares for the Art Ross this season.

Malkin is the biggest example of this this season. He started the season with 41 Pts in 32 games before the injuries started to pile up and while in the lineup, Malkin played hurt the rest of the way. When Crosby played those 22 games in 2011-12, he wasn't nursing any injuries as he sat out for more than a year and the doctors made sure his neck and concussion issues were a non-factor. So it boils down to, who is better when 100% healthy and the obvious choice is Malkin.

 

[Beau Knows]

Please go back to the rest of my post.

I wasn't responding to the rest of your post. I responded to the part about it not being a slam dunk. It clearly is a slam dunk this season as the voters who posted their ballots online have shown.

 

[livewell68]

I wasn't responding to the rest of your post. I responded to the part about it not being a slam dunk. It clearly is a slam dunk this season as the voters who posted their ballots online have shown.

Which again is not a slam dunk because the "actual" final votes have not been cast.

 

[Plural]

It's not a slam dunk. I think if the Hart is awarded to the correct player then Giroux would win it.

How often does the Hart go to the player having scored the most points on the better team?

Case in point 2005-06.

If he wins it, I have no qualms with it despite the fact that I think the lack of high scoring players and elite talent compared to 15-25 years ago is alarming.

It's as slam dunk as it's possible. You can still deny it for the sake of it. But you know it and I know it. Crosby will win Hart and Lindsay awards. Deservedly so.

 

[Beau Knows]

Which again is not a slam dunk because the "actual" final votes have not been cast.

Obviously he hasn't been given the trophy yet. But it is pretty clear that he will win it this season.

 

[daver]

No, I mean tough nuggets by the criteria that anytime someone other than Crosby wins the Art Ross it's because Crosby was injured that comes out of your mouth over and over throughout this thread.

By the criteria that supposedly Crosby should have 5 Art Ross in his trophy case now instead of 2.
That he would've won in '11 and he prolly would have but saying he would've had 132 points while doing it is a leap.
He had 66 points in 41 games and was on pace for 132 points. It's a huge difference!
This past season at the 41 game mark he had 58 points. He was on pace for 116 but that's NOT what happened, he finished the season with 46 points in his final 39 games for 104 points.

I can agree that this season would prolly have been his 4th, but I can't agree that he actually would have beat Malkin in 2012, just like he DIDN'T beat Malkin in 2009.

The biggest thing I took offense to that you posted was your brushing off of Malkin's '12 Art Ross.
The ONLY way one could brush it off like that is by wearing Crosby coloured glassed.

I never have never stated the first two bolded parts. Malkin more than likely wins the Art Ross in 2012 if everyone is healthy. I was disputing another posters' claim that it was far and away more dominant than Crosby's 2007 win.

As for the last bolded part, I will continue to call out people who selectively give credit for games missed. Can't have it both ways.

I think we agree that if not for injury:

Crosby probably wins at least two more Art Rosses

His win this year is not as dominant as Malkin's in 2012.

And what started this whole thing, Crosby has been much better than OV over the past 4years.

Truce?

 

[livewell68]

It's as slam dunk as it's possible. You can still deny it for the sake of it. But you know it and I know it. Crosby will win Hart and Lindsay awards. Deservedly so.

It pains me to say but I agree.

 

[daver]

All while his PPG drops by each passing game. I wonder if in 4 years' time he will still be above PPG in the playoffs.

Hard to say. How long did it take Jagr to drop below a PPG? Have to factor in that his PPG was never as high as Crosby's.

 

[livewell68]

Hard to say. How long did it take Jagr to drop below a PPG? Have to factor in that his PPG was never as high as Crosby's.

It took him 17 years, actually until 2012-13, he was well above PPG, of course playing in a deep playoff run at age 41 on a new team with no chemistry helped to lower his career playoff PPG to below PPG.

Jagr's PPG was not as high due to also being a 19 year old rookie playing on the 4th line in a long playoff run to start his career.

Take away his rookie season and his last season in the playoffs and his PPG is just as impressive. He played in 156 playoffs games outside of his first and last playoffs and registered 176 Pts. Of course I will be accused of cherry picking stats but you cannot compare a player playing 1st line minutes to a player playing 3rd and 4th line minutes.

Jagr's PPG in the playoffs never started to drop until he was past his 30's. Crosby is not near 30 years old and already his PPG is dropping while having played less games in the same timeframe.

Over the past 4 playoff runs when Crosby is supposed to be in his prime, he's scored 49 Pts in 42 games. I bet if we were to look at Jagr's PPG in the playoffs during his prime, things would look a lot more impressive for # 68.

 

[Beau Knows]

Isn't this supposed to be about Crosby vs Ovechkin.

Post-season stats:

Crosby:
ppg: 1.23
Best ppg: 1.46, 1.35, 1.33, 1.29, 1.07, 1.00, 0.77
Best series: 14 points in 6 games, 13 points in 7 games
Most points: 31, 27, 19, 15
Most goals: 15, 7, 6, 6
Most assists: 21, 16, 13, 8

Ovechkin:
ppg: 1.05
Best ppg: 1.5, 1.42, 1.28, 1.11, 0.64, 0.28
Best series: 14 points in 7 games, 10 points in 7 games
Most points: 21, 10, 10, 9
Most goals: 11, 5, 5, 5
Most assists: 10, 5, 5, 5

How exactly has Ovechkin been a better playoff player than Crosby?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Isn't this supposed to be about Crosby vs Ovechkin.

Yes. Things look a little better now...

 

[Hardyvan123]

It is much easier to project how many points a player can score when he misses 20 games than it is when he misses 40 + games.

This season with all the games Crosby played, he finished with a 1.30 PPG, below his career average that was inflated in those 3 injury riddled seasons and in fact below his then career average of 1.34.

It goes back to my theory that maintaining a high PPG throughout the entire 82 games season is far more difficult than having a high PPG in 20-30 and 40 games stretches.

Crosby started the season with 21 Pts in 13 games in October, and then his season PPG dropped every month.

In fact Crosby finished the season with 29 Pts in his last 26 games. Prior to this season, some claimed that Crosby can never have such a slump and yet he did.

What makes you think that Crosby would have faired any better down the stretch in 2010-11, 2011-12 or 2012-13?

I could easily extrapolate this current season's pace over the last 26 games to 2010-11.

66 Pts in his first 41 games and 46 Pts over his last 41 games = 112 Pts.

37 Pts in 22 games in 2011-12 and 67 Pts in the other 60 games = 104 Pts. Surely Malkin still wins the Art Ross.

56 Pts in 36 games in 2012-13 and 13 Pts in the last 12 games. He wins the Art Ross by 9 Pts over a 37 year old St.Louis.

His numbers don't look so dominating now to they?

You already had the last 30 something games pace that Sid had this season called out as actually winning the Art Ross, why are you trying to cherry pcik that pace for previous seasons when scoring was different?

Also why we are at it, how does a 99 game sample inflate his PPG totals over a 550 game career? his lowest single season rate, 1.26 in his rookie age 18 season and the past 1.30 rate (in a really low scoring year and heck only 38 PP points to go along with 66 ES ones)

Let's not forget a couple of other important things here, Sid for the last couple of years has done the heavy lifting when it comes to face offs and offensive zone starts while Malkin has been sheltered much more and also plays with Neal on a regular basis who most everyone here would take as a better offensive player than Kunitz right?