Best players outside 500 goals club?

[Infinite Vision*]

Forsberg is the first thing that came to my mind when I read this thread. I still don't understand how Stastny consistently ranks ahead of Forsberg by many, I just don't see it.

 

[begbeee]

Because Forsberg is heavily overrated?

 

[RECsGuy*]

Both Maruk and Nicholls were not bad players, basically PPG guys with one fluke season, but do you really see them in HM category with guys like Neely, LaFontaine or even LeClaire or Kariya???

Calling Nicholls's '88-'89 campaign (79 GP - 70 G - 80 A - 150 PTS ) a "fluke" is pretty relative considering he also had seasons of...

'81-'82: 22 GP - 14 G - 18 A - 32 PTS (1.45 PTS/GM)
'83-'94: 78 GP - 41 G - 54 A - 95 PTS (1.22 PTS/GM)
'84-'85: 80 GP - 46 G - 54 A - 100 PTS (1.25 PTS/GM)
'85-'86: 80 GP - 36 G - 61 A - 97 PTS (1.21 PTS/GM)
'86-'87: 80 GP - 33 G - 48 A - 81 PTS (1.01 PTS/GM)
'87-'88: 65 GP - 32 G - 46 A - 78 PTS (1.20 PTS/GM)
'89-'90: 79 GP - 39 G - 73 A - 112 PTS (1.42 PTS/GM)
'90-'91: 71 GP - 25 G - 48 A - 73 PTS (1.03 PTS/GM)
'94-'95: 48 GP - 22 G - 29 A - 51 PTS (1.06 PTS/GM)
'95-'96: 59 GP - 19 G - 41 A - 60 PTS (1.02 PTS/GM)

...not to mention playoff totals of...

118 GP - 42 G - 72 A - 114 PTS (0.97 PTS/GM)

...which puts many HHOFers to shame.

Brings his career totals to...

1,245 PG - 517 G - 806 A - 1,323 PTS (1.06 PTS/GM)

IMO, Nicholls is the most underrated, underappreciated non-HHOF, PPG player in NHL history. Used his cerebral prowess to overcome obvious speed and strength deficiencies.

As for the topic at hand, Pavel Bure's...

766 GP - 472 G (0.62 G/GM; 50.53 G/82 GMS) - 377 A - 849 PTS

...easily makes him the best pure sniper in NHL history to NOT hit the 500 career goals mark.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Calling Nicholls's '88-'89 campaign (79 GP - 70 G - 80 A - 150 PTS ) a "fluke" is pretty relative considering he also had seasons of...

'81-'82: 22 GP - 14 G - 18 A - 32 PTS (1.45 PTS/GM)
'83-'94: 78 GP - 41 G - 54 A - 95 PTS (1.22 PTS/GM)
'84-'85: 80 GP - 46 G - 54 A - 100 PTS (1.25 PTS/GM)
'85-'86: 80 GP - 36 G - 61 A - 97 PTS (1.21 PTS/GM)
'86-'87: 80 GP - 33 G - 48 A - 81 PTS (1.01 PTS/GM)
'87-'88: 65 GP - 32 G - 46 A - 78 PTS (1.20 PTS/GM)
'89-'90: 79 GP - 39 G - 73 A - 112 PTS (1.42 PTS/GM)
'90-'91: 71 GP - 25 G - 48 A - 73 PTS (1.03 PTS/GM)
'94-'95: 48 GP - 22 G - 29 A - 51 PTS (1.06 PTS/GM)
'95-'96: 59 GP - 19 G - 41 A - 60 PTS (1.02 PTS/GM)

...not to mention playoff totals of...

118 GP - 42 G - 72 A - 114 PTS (0.97 PTS/GM)

...which puts many HHOFers to shame.

Brings his career totals to...

1,245 PG - 517 G - 806 A - 1,323 PTS (1.06 PTS/GM)

IMO, Nicholls is the most underrated, underappreciated non-HHOF, PPG player in NHL history. Used his cerebral prowess to overcome obvious speed and strength deficiencies.

As for the topic at hand, Pavel Bure's...

766 GP - 472 G (0.62 G/GM; 50.53 G/82 GMS) - 377 A - 849 PTS

...easily makes him the best pure sniper in NHL history to NOT hit the 500 career goals mark.

I've said the same thing several times before.

Nicholls gets beat up on here all the time for the one monster season but he actually was a talented player in his own right as well.

 

[RECsGuy*]

I've said the same thing several times before.

Nicholls gets beat up on here all the time for the one monster season but he actually was a talented player in his own right as well.

The funniest part about the argument used to belittle Nicholls's 150-PT season is the convenient absence of this fact:

Nicholls needed only one full season playing with Wayne Gretzky to pot 70. Jari Kurri is the only other player to score at least 70 goals in a season alongside the Great One, and he only did it ONCE IN THIRTEEN SEASONS flanking 99.

But, hey, anyone could score 70 goals on the Branrtford great's wing.

Nicholls's numbers in the 1.5+ season he played with Gretzky

137 GP - 104 G - 137 A - 241 PTS (140.73 PTS/80 GMS)

Sandstrom and Granato put together nice careers with the Kings, but I still think that trade was a mistake.

 

[begbeee]

I never said Nicholls was not a PPG player or anything. But how you call a fact when he scored 70 goals and never after hit 30 again when it is not a fluke?

 

[SeanVT395]

I assume you mean forwards only

1. Bobby Clarke
2. Peter Stastny
3. Peter Forsberg
4. Sergei Fedorov
5. Doug Gilmour
6. Adam Oates
7. Eric Lindros
8. Denis Savard
9. Pavel Bure
10. Jean Ratelle

HMs: Cam Neely, Jacques Lemaire, John Leclair, Pat Lafontaine

Solid list.

 

[RECsGuy*]

I never said Nicholls was not a PPG player or anything. But how you call a fact when he scored 70 goals and never after hit 30 again when it is not a fluke?

Ironically, the fact that Nicholls scored 104 goals in just 127 games alongside Gretzky and then never came near that goal-scoring rate before or after playing with 99 not only made perfect sense, but also shows how multifaceted Bernie was.

If you look at Pumper's stats season-to-season, he was a set-up man first and a scorer second (his assists total exceeded his goals total in all but one of his 18 NHL seasons ['82-'83]).

When the Great One became a King, the Haliburton, Ont. native appropriately deferred to Gretz becoming Los Angeles' primary playmaker and immediately turned himself into an elite goalscoerer (and don't say that anyone could have made this adjustment because Robitaille's 46 goals in '88-'89 were the next highest after Nicholls [70] and Gretzky [54], and Kurri is the only other player to score 70 goals as Gretzky's teammate, doing it only once despite playing 11.5 more season with Wayne than Bernie did), yet STILL somehow managed to remain a top set-up man by topping his snipes by 10 full points with 80 assists that "fluke" season.

 

[matnor]

Because Forsberg is heavily overrated?

How about Forsberg's On/Off-Ice +/- is among the best of all players post-expansion while Stastny's is quite poor. Shouldn't there be some reason Forsberg constantly outperformed his teammates in +/- while Stastny didn't?

 

[begbeee]

Late eighties Nordiques were one of the poorest team in history. Colorado was one of the three best team during whole era.

...Stastny had multiple 100 points and 40 goals seasons and was second best scorer of the decade after you know who. Forsberg was nowhere near this performance and altough he could do that, he didnt and Stastny did.

 

[begbeee]

No love for Mogilny in this thread?

 

[matnor]

Late eighties Nordiques were one of the poorest team in history. Colorado was one of the three best team during whole era.

...Stastny had multiple 100 points and 40 goals seasons and was second best scorer of the decade after you know who. Forsberg was nowhere near this performance and altough he could do that, he didnt and Stastny did.

That doesn't explain why Forsberg performed much better than his teammates than Stastny did. I also don't see how Stastny was the better offensive player. These are their top-10 finishes in ppg excluding #99 and #66:

Forsberg: 1,1,2,3,5,5,5,9
Stastny: 1,2,3,4,6,7,9

Forsberg gets the edge here. You might say that Stastny was injured less. While that is true he actually only played 1070 NHL games to Forsberg's 857. Hardly a big difference. Finally, Forsberg's competition was harder since he had to compete with players from the former Warsaw pact, something Stastny didn't have to do. Remove Fedorov, Mogilny, Bure, Jagr etc and Forsberg have even better top-10 finishes. Add Forsberg's playoff resume and I don't think it's unreasonable to consider Forsberg better than Stastny.

 

[BraveCanadian]

That doesn't explain why Forsberg performed much better than his teammates than Stastny did. I also don't see how Stastny was the better offensive player. These are their top-10 finishes in ppg excluding #99 and #66:

Forsberg: 1,1,2,3,5,5,5,9
Stastny: 1,2,3,4,6,7,9

Forsberg gets the edge here. You might say that Stastny was injured less. While that is true he actually only played 1070 NHL games to Forsberg's 857. Hardly a big difference. Finally, Forsberg's competition was harder since he had to compete with players from the former Warsaw pact, something Stastny didn't have to do. Remove Fedorov, Mogilny, Bure, Jagr etc and Forsberg have even better top-10 finishes. Add Forsberg's playoff resume and I don't think it's unreasonable to consider Forsberg better than Stastny.

Forsbergs competition was not better than Stastny's even if you exclude Mario and Wayne.

Forsberg's peak season coincided with the worst crop of top forwards playing in the NHL I've witnessed. Naslund, Hejduk and Bertuzzi were top 5 that year.

Those guys don't even come close to Bossy, Yzerman, Trottier, Dionne, Hawerchuk and the list goes on..

I know you like Forsberg and for my money Forsberg was no doubt the better all around player but certainly not because of top 10 finishes.

 

[matnor]

Forsbergs competition was not better than Stastny's even if you exclude Mario and Wayne.

Forsberg's peak season coincided with the worst crop of top forwards playing in the NHL I've witnessed. Naslund, Hejduk and Bertuzzi were top 5 that year.

Those guys don't even come close to Bossy, Yzerman, Trottier, Dionne, Hawerchuk and the list goes on..

I know you like Forsberg and for my money Forsberg was no doubt the better all around player but certainly not because of top 10 finishes.

But that's only for a couple of seasons. Prime Jagr, Lindros, Sakic, Fedorov, Selänne, Kariya etc were his competition while racking up top-5 finishes.

Edit: These are the players with a higher PPG during Forsberg's top-10 finishes (excluding #66):

95/96: Jagr, Lindros, Francis, Sakic
96/97: Lindros, Jagr, Kariya, Selänne
97/98: Jagr
98/99: Jagr, Selänne, Sakic, Lindros
00/01: Jagr, Sakic
02/03: None
03/04: None
05/06: Thornton, Jagr, Alfredsson, Spezza, Ovechkin, Crosby, Kovalchuk, Heatley

So apart from the 05/06 season where he was past his prime he was only beaten by a total of 6 players (5 if you don't count Francis in 95/96.) during his other 7 top-10 finishes. Prime Jagr, Lindros, Sakic, Selänne and Kariya is not easy competition.

Edit2: I didn't include his only down-year (99/00) where he was 13 in PPG since it wasn't a top-10 finish, his rookie year (17 in PPG), his last year (36 in PPG) and of course not his short stint in 07/08 when he lead the league but only played 9 games.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

That doesn't explain why Forsberg performed much better than his teammates than Stastny did. I also don't see how Stastny was the better offensive player. These are their top-10 finishes in ppg excluding #99 and #66:

Forsberg: 1,1,2,3,5,5,5,9
Stastny: 1,2,3,4,6,7,9

Forsberg gets the edge here. You might say that Stastny was injured less. While that is true he actually only played 1070 NHL games to Forsberg's 857. Hardly a big difference. Finally, Forsberg's competition was harder since he had to compete with players from the former Warsaw pact, something Stastny didn't have to do. Remove Fedorov, Mogilny, Bure, Jagr etc and Forsberg have even better top-10 finishes. Add Forsberg's playoff resume and I don't think it's unreasonable to consider Forsberg better than Stastny.

Some of this argument is a bit misleading...

First, why would you use PPG finishes instead of points finishes? A player's team has to play EVERY game of the season, therefore they should all matter, not just the ones he plays in.

Here are the Top 20 point finishes for Stastny and Forsberg eliminating Gretzky and Lemieux

Stastny: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 12
Forsberg: 1, 2, 4, 4, 9, 9, 14

You also downplay the injury factor on Forsberg when in fact Stastny was much healthier...

First, you list their regular season plus playoff game totals, which is unfair considering how much better Forsberg's teams were which resulted in him getting more opportunities to play in playoff games.

Going by regular season only...
Stastny plays 971 games in 14 seasons
Forseberg plays 697 games in 11 seasons
(Note: both players played less than 10 games in their last season, this is not included)

Stastny averages about 6 games more each season, and is able to play 3 more seasons

Second, you don't even acknowledge the fact that Stastny had to wait until he was 24 to play in the NHL. Stastny was already recognized as one of the world's best players before he entered the NHL, and his 109 point rookie season proved it. How many more games would he have played in if he could have started at age 21 like Forsberg did?

Your overall conclusion may not be wrong, these two players are very close. Arguments can be made for Forsberg over Stastny, but the ones you listed above are not them.

 

[brianscot]

As a Boston fan, my head will probably explode when typing this but Bill Barber deserves to be mentioned.

Nine seasons with 30+ goals, killed penalties, could play the point on the powerplay.

And no, he didn't have an excellent career just because he played with Bobby Clarke.

 

[matnor]

Some of this argument is a bit misleading...

First, why would you use PPG finishes instead of points finishes? A player's team has to play EVERY game of the season, therefore they should all matter, not just the ones he plays in.

Here are the Top 20 point finishes for Stastny and Forsberg eliminating Gretzky and Lemieux

Stastny: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 12
Forsberg: 1, 2, 4, 4, 9, 9, 14

You also downplay the injury factor on Forsberg when in fact Stastny was much healthier...

First, you list their regular season plus playoff game totals, which is unfair considering how much better Forsberg's teams were which resulted in him getting more opportunities to play in playoff games.

Going by regular season only...
Stastny plays 971 games in 14 seasons
Forseberg plays 697 games in 11 seasons
(Note: both players played less than 10 games in their last season, this is not included)

Stastny averages about 6 games more each season, and is able to play 3 more seasons

Second, you don't even acknowledge the fact that Stastny had to wait until he was 24 to play in the NHL. Stastny was already recognized as one of the world's best players before he entered the NHL, and his 109 point rookie season proved it. How many more games would he have played in if he could have started at age 21 like Forsberg did?

Your overall conclusion may not be wrong, these two players are very close. Arguments can be made for Forsberg over Stastny, but the ones you listed above are not them.

Fair enough. Though in his last 4 full seasons (not counting his last 2 with 23 games) Stastny finished 52, 79, 54 and 154 in PPG. Do these seasons really add to his legacy? If not, then he has 675 games to Forsberg's 697. Yes, he did came over late but Forsberg also missed one season due to the lockout so it is essentially only a difference of two seasons.

And yes, I agree that it overall is close though my main argument for Forsberg is the huge discrepancy in On/Off-Ice +/- between the two players. The rest of the argument was just a response to the claim that Forsberg was inferior to Stastny offensively which I don't agree with.

A final thing is that I'm not a huge fan of using top-10 point finishes instead of top-10 ppg finishes. The reason is that with the former, a guy who plays at an elite level for 10 seasons but only 60 games a season may be completely out of the top-10 all seasons while a guy who plays at the same level for only 5 seasons but in all games may have more top-10 finishes while playing much fewer games. I do acknowledge the flaws with PPG-finishes though. I think a better way to compare across eras would be to use adjusted stats but that have other problems.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No love for Mogilny in this thread?

I ranked Bure 9th, Ratelle 10th and Cam Neely, Jacques Lemaire, John Leclair, and Pat Lafontaine as honarable mentions. All these guys were better than Mogilny.

I didn't even mention Paul Kariya, who I think is a step down from my HMs, but is still a step up from Mogilny. Mogilny had the one great season, 2 more good seasons, and a bunch of mediocre seasons when he should have been in his prime.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Fair enough. Though in his last 4 full seasons (not counting his last 2 with 23 games) Stastny finished 52, 79, 54 and 154 in PPG. Do these seasons really add to his legacy? If not, then he has 675 games to Forsberg's 697. Yes, he did came over late but Forsberg also missed one season due to the lockout so it is essentially only a difference of two seasons.

And yes, I agree that it overall is close though my main argument for Forsberg is the huge discrepancy in On/Off-Ice +/- between the two players. The rest of the argument was just a response to the claim that Forsberg was inferior to Stastny offensively which I don't agree with.

A final thing is that I'm not a huge fan of using top-10 point finishes instead of top-10 ppg finishes. The reason is that with the former, a guy who plays at an elite level for 10 seasons but only 60 games a season may be completely out of the top-10 all seasons while a guy who plays at the same level for only 5 seasons but in all games may have more top-10 finishes while playing much fewer games. I do acknowledge the flaws with PPG-finishes though. I think a better way to compare across eras would be to use adjusted stats but that have other problems.

Really the best way is to probably use a combination of both top PPG and top point finishes. That really gives the best overall picture.

 

[matnor]

Really the best way is to probably use a combination of both top PPG and top point finishes. That really gives the best overall picture.

Couldn't agree more

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Ironically, the fact that Nicholls scored 104 goals in just 127 games alongside Gretzky and then never came near that goal-scoring rate before or after playing with 99 not only made perfect sense, but also shows how multifaceted Bernie was.

If you look at Pumper's stats season-to-season, he was a set-up man first and a scorer second (his assists total exceeded his goals total in all but one of his 18 NHL seasons ['82-'83]).

When the Great One became a King, the Haliburton, Ont. native appropriately deferred to Gretz becoming Los Angeles' primary playmaker and immediately turned himself into an elite goalscoerer (and don't say that anyone could have made this adjustment because Robitaille's 46 goals in '88-'89 were the next highest after Nicholls [70] and Gretzky [54], and Kurri is the only other player to score 70 goals as Gretzky's teammate, doing it only once despite playing 11.5 more season with Wayne than Bernie did), yet STILL somehow managed to remain a top set-up man by topping his snipes by 10 full points with 80 assists that "fluke" season.

i would never call nicholls a "product" of gretzky, though he no doubt benefited in his best years from playing on the same team as him. but before we start calling the hall of fame, isn't nicholls basically dennis maruk with some compiler seasons tacked onto the end?

 

[Hardyvan123]

I assume you mean forwards only

1. Bobby Clarke
2. Peter Stastny
3. Peter Forsberg
4. Sergei Fedorov
5. Doug Gilmour
6. Adam Oates
7. Eric Lindros
8. Denis Savard
9. Pavel Bure
10. Jean Ratelle

HMs: Cam Neely, Jacques Lemaire, John Leclair, Pat Lafontaine

At 1st glance this list looks very good and there might be one or 2 players out there to add at the end and some might quibble with the order but pretty complete.

I would add Dave Taylor and Mogilny to the list of HM's befroe Glenn Anderson though as other have done.

 

[RECsGuy*]

i would never call nicholls a "product" of gretzky, though he no doubt benefited in his best years from playing on the same team as him. but before we start calling the hall of fame, isn't nicholls basically dennis maruk with some compiler seasons tacked onto the end?

Huh?

107 GP - 41 G - 70 A - 111 PTS

during a two season span ('94/'95 and '95-'96) that preceded his retirement by THREE seasons somehow made a huge difference in his career PPG totals and qualify as "compiler seasons tacked onto the end?" Give me a break.

 

[Hardyvan123]

How about Forsberg's On/Off-Ice +/- is among the best of all players post-expansion while Stastny's is quite poor. Shouldn't there be some reason Forsberg constantly outperformed his teammates in +/- while Stastny didn't?

I think very highly of Stastny but Forsberg was a stud in his own right and is under rated by some in this forum IMO.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Ironman, Calder winner, Stanley Cup winner, PPG career, + 200 +/-:

Steve Larmer