Best Chance of Winning the Cup is...

[Mess]

Tanking is not an option!

If a team continually collapses and ends up picking in the top 10 of the entry draft isn't that a form of tanking?.

At least it has the effects of tanking, as I doubt anyone said at the beginning of Leaf seasons that Morgan Rielly (5th) and Willie Nylander (8th) were the goals of their rebuild plan, but rather they were trying for the playoffs instead. The silver lining of a failed season is rewarded by top draft picks.

Leafs are trying to win but are losing unintentionally (tanking) instead based on results.

 

[TheThrill81*]

It isn’t usually black-and-white like that. You don’t instantly build; it is a process.

I like our forward group (NHL group + prospects like Leivo, Verheaghe, Johnson, Nylander). I think there may be a gem or two in there. Our defensive prospects look very good, but D prospects are so hard to predict. I’m not quite as high on Rielly as most here, but I do think that one of him or Gardiner is bound to develop into a #1. Because of this, I would trade Dion (with a + if necessary) for a young, potential #1C; the hardest asset to acquire in hockey. Someone like O’Reilly or Hertl. Of course it’s a gamble, but you need to take risks. I still think it’s time to go a different direction from Dion, and I don’t think our defense would suffer as much as people think.

Haha, part of me wishes a trade happens just so you see how wrong you are.

 

[Holymakinaw]

If a team continually collapses and ends up picking in the top 10 of the entry draft isn't that a form of tanking?.

At least it has the effects of tanking, as I doubt anyone said at the beginning of Leaf seasons that Morgan Rielly (5th) and Willie Nylander (8th) were the goals of their rebuild plan, but rather they were trying for the playoffs instead. The silver lining of a failed season is rewarded by top draft picks.

Leafs are trying to win but are losing unintentionally (tanking) instead based on results.

Pittsburgh tried and "failed" for 5 straight years, from 2002-2006, and were indeed rewarded with a few #1 overall picks, a few #2 picks, and a #5. It took them a full 3 years after that to win a Cup in 2009, making their "rebuild" an 8 year thing.

We tried and "failed" since we retooled in 2009, and we have been rewarded with a #2 player in JVR, two #5's in Kessel & Rielly, a 7th in Kadri, and an 8th in Nylander. Hopefully it'll work out for us as well. I wonder if Leaf fans will be patient enough?

 

[Dangles McGavin]

Haha, part of me wishes a trade happens just so you see how wrong you are.

Well, I’m far from a Dion hater, but he’s been proven to be pretty unreliable when the pressure gets heavy.

The only sample we have for our D without Dion is when he was out last year (can’t remember- suspension or inury?). We played fine. IIRC we even beat LA.

 

[cannucky]

at this point the best chance this team has for winning the cup is someone in the rafters with a sniper rifle and a couple of boxes of ammo every night .

 

[Kb21]

Chose 1 but What we really need is a better program to develop our young players and better drafting to find gems.

I like the track we are currently on, drafting and developing our youth slowly. It's been 5 years but we can finally say we have some farm depth. Now we just need to get luck and draft a high end star

 

[Mess]

Well Vegas just released their odds and Leafs are ranked 33-1 to win the Cup #18 overall tied with Columbus.

http://sports.bodog.eu/sports-betting/hockey-futures.jsp

Vegas Insider 45-1 (#19 overall)

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nhl/odds/futures/

 

[Daisy Jane]

Well Vegas just released their odds and Leafs are ranked 33-1 to win the Cup #18 overall tied with Columbus.

http://sports.bodog.eu/sports-betting/hockey-futures.jsp

hey that's not too bad.

 

[JackJ]

Cheering for another team.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Pittsburgh tried and "failed" for 5 straight years, from 2002-2006, and were indeed rewarded with a few #1 overall picks, a few #2 picks, and a #5. It took them a full 3 years after that to win a Cup in 2009, making their "rebuild" an 8 year thing.

We tried and "failed" since we retooled in 2009, and we have been rewarded with a #2 player in JVR, two #5's in Kessel & Rielly, a 7th in Kadri, and an 8th in Nylander. Hopefully it'll work out for us as well. I wonder if Leaf fans will be patient enough?

If the benchmark for ending a rebuild is "winning the cup", then the leafs have been "rebuilding" since 1968. That's almost 50 freaking years.

Pittsburgh missed the playoffs 4 years in a row during their rebuild.
JUST FOUR YEARS.
They then started growing. They made the playoffs as a first step. Then the finals the next year. Then the cup. They have continued making the playoffs since, usually winning a round or two.

In comparison, the leafs have now missed the playoffs eight of the last nine years and have won ZERO playoff series.
You claim that management never tried to "rebuild/retool" until 2009. Well, THAT'S MANAGEMENT'S FAULT TOO!!!! WHY DID THEY WAIT SO LONG????
And any sane person would list JFJ's firing in 2007/2008 season as the beginning of the "retool", after which we signed a 5th overall defenseman.

So we'll be going into year SEVEN of the "retool/rebuild", and just missed the freaking playoffs. Getting only ONE more point than that 2008 team of 6 seasons ago.
HOW COULD SOMEBODY POSSIBLY DEFEND THIS?

IT'S JUST SO EMBARRASSING!!!!!

 

[TheThrill81*]

Well, I’m far from a Dion hater, but he’s been proven to be pretty unreliable when the pressure gets heavy.

Carlyle's system, and the team as a whole have proven to be unreliable when the going gets tough. You may not be a hater, but I think singling out one player is what people with an agenda do.

The only sample we have for our D without Dion is when he was out last year (can’t remember- suspension or inury?). We played fine. IIRC we even beat LA.

It was a 2-game suspension. Hardly a reliable sample size.

 

[Dangles McGavin]

You aren't high on Rielly, but think he could develop into a #1 ....?

Reading sure is tough.

 

[Dangles McGavin]

Carlyle's system, and the team as a whole have proven to be unreliable when the going gets tough. You may not be a hater, but I think singling out one player is what people with an agenda do.



It was a 2-game suspension. Hardly a reliable sample size.

Dear lord…

What the hell would my agenda be? I defend Dion more often than not. I think, before he and the rest of the team started playing like garbage at the end of the season, he had the best season of his career. But given our defensive prospects and up-and-comers, the organization as a whole is in more of a need for a young potential 1C than a ~30 year old Dion Phaneuf.

 

[jmart21]

Our best way at winning a cup is just seeing a plan through. No matter what your plan is, you'll never be successful if you're constantly scrapping that plan and moving to the next one.

The armchair GMs think that it's as simple as trading away the 25+ crowd and drafting young players.

Yet when those guys get to be 25+, chances are we'll be hearing the same thing again.

You best bet to win a cup is to actually build a team and see it through. We've got a great top line, a top pair Dman, a top goalie and some fantastic young pieces. Why would we scrap it all now? Rome wasn't built in a day. You need to keep adding to it.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Our best way at winning a cup is just seeing a plan through. No matter what your plan is, you'll never be successful if you're constantly scrapping that plan and moving to the next one.

The armchair GMs think that it's as simple as trading away the 25+ crowd and drafting young players.

Yet when those guys get to be 25+, chances are we'll be hearing the same thing again.

You best bet to win a cup is to actually build a team and see it through. We've got a great top line, a top pair Dman, a top goalie and some fantastic young pieces. Why would we scrap it all now? Rome wasn't built in a day. You need to keep adding to it.

The "armchair gm's" that you're criticizing probably could have (and I'm not joking in the slightest when I say this) done a better job over the past 10 years than the real GM's.

Could they have done much worse?

If you took some random coach from a Tim Bit hockey team, and made him the Leafs GM for the past 10 years, I'd be SHOCKED to see us in a worse position than we currently are.

 

[TLeafsFan]

If a team continually collapses and ends up picking in the top 10 of the entry draft isn't that a form of tanking?.

At least it has the effects of tanking, as I doubt anyone said at the beginning of Leaf seasons that Morgan Rielly (5th) and Willie Nylander (8th) were the goals of their rebuild plan, but rather they were trying for the playoffs instead. The silver lining of a failed season is rewarded by top draft picks.

Leafs are trying to win but are losing unintentionally (tanking) instead based on results.

That's different than management making moves that don't improve their team and having a fire sale by giving up on the core.

Management looks to be making moves to improve the team at least in the depth department.

The only thing they've done ATM that might support a tanking theory, is keeping Carlyle.

But Spott has been brought up now so there goes that theory.

The players and coaching staff may have "tanked" down the stretch, but not at the hands of management.

There is a difference, don't you agree?

 

[Mess]

That's different than management making moves that don't improve their team and having a fire sale by giving up on the core.

There is a difference, don't you agree?

If I wanted to tank the season without making it appear obvious of my intentions like trading Kessel or Phaneuf for futures I would do exactly what Nonis did this summer.

10 easy steps to failure, oops I mean success of a top 5 pick.

1) Start with a bad team, 8th last in the standings, 5th worst in goal agaisnt and 30th in shots against .....Check.

2) Recognize that this team 18-wheeler collapsed in 2012 (5th last) and epic collapsed losing 12 of last 14 and with that in mind.... Check.

3) Bring back the same coach responsible for that result, believe same or even worse was possible .... Check.

4) Bring back the same core group that is now proven to be unsuccessful, as tinkering with the core could effect the results in a positive way so don't want to risk that.... Check.

5) Remove my best 2-way/defensive players Gunnarson (+12 #1 on Leafs), Kulemin, Bolland, McClement etc and replace them with cheaper, lesser versions of themselves, while shopping in the bargain bin.... Check.

6) Create the illusion I'm trying by busy work and bringing in a lot of question marks like KHLers, injured players and unproven NHLers. As simply promoting 1/2 the Marlies to replace the departed far to obvious.... Check.

7) Call a press conference and state young player "play the kids" was the new plan and youngsters like Gardiner and Rielly are going to get bigger sink or swim roles and a few Marlies Holland, Ashton etc will get more opportunities and sadly accept the consequences of their rookie mistakes while learning....Check.

8) Plan on playing my 3rd/4th lines more which then gives less TOI/g to my top offensive players on my top 2 lines by default. Less ice time less offensive production...Check.

9) Wait well into the summer to find assistant coaches giving the team less time to prepare ahead of time on special teams or systems for next year, or provide Carlyle with any help possible by bringing in qualified personnel too early...Check. .

10) Sit back and watch if my bottom 10 team takes another step backwards in hopes that a high draft pick in 2015 is my reward... Check.

 

[TLeafsFan]

If I wanted to tank the season without making it appear obvious of my intentions like trading Kessel or Phaneuf for futures I would do exactly what Nonis did this summer.

10 easy steps to failure, oops I mean success of a top 5 pick.

1) Start with a bad team, 8th last in the standings, 5th worst in goal agaisnt and 30th in shots against .....Check.

2) Recognize that this team 18-wheeler collapsed in 2012 (5th last) and epic collapsed losing 12 of last 14 and with that in mind.... Check.

3) Bring back the same coach responsible for that result, believe same or even worse was possible .... Check.

4) Bring back the same core group that is now proven to be unsuccessful, as tinkering with the core could effect the results in a positive way so don't want to risk that.... Check.

5) Remove my best 2-way/defensive players Gunnarson (+12 #1 on Leafs), Kulemin, Bolland, McClement etc and replace them with cheaper, lesser versions of themselves, while shopping in the bargain bin.... Check.

6) Create the illusion I'm trying by busy work and bringing in a lot of question marks like KHLers, injured players and unproven NHLers. As simply promoting 1/2 the Marlies to replace the departed far to obvious.... Check.

7) Call a press conference and state young player "play the kids" was the new plan and youngsters like Gardiner and Rielly are going to get bigger sink or swim roles and a few Marlies Holland, Ashton etc will get more opportunities and sadly accept the consequences of their rookie mistakes while learning....Check.

8) Plan on playing my 3rd/4th lines more which then gives less TOI/g to my top offensive players on my top 2 lines by default. Less ice time less offensive production...Check.

9) Wait well into the summer to find assistant coaches giving the team less time to prepare ahead of time on special teams or systems for next year, or provide Carlyle with any help possible by bringing in qualified personnel too early...Check. .

10) Sit back and watch if my bottom 10 team takes another step backwards in hopes that a high draft pick in 2015 is my reward... Check.

On points 2 and 3, Wilson was responsible for that, Carlyle came in after the damage was already done.

I understand your outlook, mine just differs.

Leafs did far better last season overall playing with hard competing Marlies playing up the roster due to injuries, than when we had a fully healthy roster at the end of the season.

I think we will see more complete efforts from the Leafs this season, win or lose.

IMO it will all come down to Carlyle and his ability to change his system and have equal player accountability.

Shanny said he wanted to see more high risk/high reward, well that's what we just got with the moves that have been made.

I think we'll like what we see more from the players being moved in versus the players being shipped out and we just got tougher to play against.

Time will tell which way the pendulum swings...

 

[Mess]

Time will tell which way the pendulum swings...

There are so many question marks, uncertainties and injury history surrounding the replacement players that it really could go either way.

Remember last year the Leafs added Bernier, Bolland, Clarkson, Rielly and Raymond the actual results went down.

So perhaps doing very little and not trying so hard will have the opposite effect and we see improvement and "unintentional tanking" doesn't happen. Reverse psychology if you prefer..

 

[TLeafsFan]

There are so many question marks, uncertainties and injury history surrounding the replacement players that it really could go either way.

Remember last year the Leafs added Bernier, Bolland, Clarkson, Rielly and Raymond the actual results went down.

So perhaps doing very little and not trying so hard will have the opposite effect and we see improvement and "unintentional tanking" doesn't happen. Reverse psychology if you prefer..

You do remember that JVR was a mess of injuries in the season before we traded for him, right?

If a player is cleared and deemed 100% recovered by the medical team, then that's what you should go by, especially with such low risk moves as these made this off-season.

 

[Diatomic]

If I wanted to tank the season without making it appear obvious of my intentions like trading Kessel or Phaneuf for futures I would do exactly what Nonis did this summer.

10 easy steps to failure, oops I mean success of a top 5 pick.

1) Start with a bad team, 8th last in the standings, 5th worst in goal agaisnt and 30th in shots against .....Check.

2) Recognize that this team 18-wheeler collapsed in 2012 (5th last) and epic collapsed losing 12 of last 14 and with that in mind.... Check.

3) Bring back the same coach responsible for that result, believe same or even worse was possible .... Check.

4) Bring back the same core group that is now proven to be unsuccessful, as tinkering with the core could effect the results in a positive way so don't want to risk that.... Check.

5) Remove my best 2-way/defensive players Gunnarson (+12 #1 on Leafs), Kulemin, Bolland, McClement etc and replace them with cheaper, lesser versions of themselves, while shopping in the bargain bin.... Check.

6) Create the illusion I'm trying by busy work and bringing in a lot of question marks like KHLers, injured players and unproven NHLers. As simply promoting 1/2 the Marlies to replace the departed far to obvious.... Check.

7) Call a press conference and state young player "play the kids" was the new plan and youngsters like Gardiner and Rielly are going to get bigger sink or swim roles and a few Marlies Holland, Ashton etc will get more opportunities and sadly accept the consequences of their rookie mistakes while learning....Check.

8) Plan on playing my 3rd/4th lines more which then gives less TOI/g to my top offensive players on my top 2 lines by default. Less ice time less offensive production...Check.

9) Wait well into the summer to find assistant coaches giving the team less time to prepare ahead of time on special teams or systems for next year, or provide Carlyle with any help possible by bringing in qualified personnel too early...Check. .

10) Sit back and watch if my bottom 10 team takes another step backwards in hopes that a high draft pick in 2015 is my reward... Check.

Agreed.

If everything goes according to plan (ie. Carlyle too stubborn to change around his systems, bozie and the 1st line still a defensive horror show, Kadri still dragging along 2 bottom 6 wingers, Gardiner stuck in the doghouse) it will be a great season that will give a grand reward. I'm actually extremely excited!

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Have to be patient, I know it's hard Leaf Fans, but no patience is what has ruined this team for years! Need to draft and develop players within.

 

[Teeder9]

Have to be patient, I know it's hard Leaf Fans, but no patience is what has ruined this team for years! Need to draft and develop players within.

It isn't our patience, or lack of, that has ruined this team

 

[Eb]

Agreed.

If everything goes according to plan (ie. Carlyle too stubborn to change around his systems, bozie and the 1st line still a defensive horror show, Kadri still dragging along 2 bottom 6 wingers, Gardiner stuck in the doghouse) it will be a great season that will give a grand reward. I'm actually extremely excited!

Gardiner was never in the dog house for an extended period of time. But nice use of a cliché, really almost sold your post.

Kadri has never played with bottom 6 wingers for an extended period. But nice try at trying to undersell Bozak and Carlyle at the same time. You're not new to this!

 

[Mess]

In my opinion the best chance of the Leafs winning the Cup eventually is to take a few steps back now from the way they have been conducting business and regroup and reload before advancing.

A conservative approach to Free Agency and putting it near the bottom of the team building model to success and focus on the draft process is a step in the right direction.