Best Chance of Winning the Cup is...

[Tak7]

I'd go with option #1. We already have many "bluechip" prospects/players. We should continue to play them and try to surround them with the right supporting cast.

Uhh.. we have 2. Rielly and Nylander.

Who are you counting...?

Clarkson isn't a prospect

 

[diceman934]

I'm curious as to how trading Phaneuf and Kessel will get us multiple blue chip prospects. How exactly does that work? Is this a fairy tale land where bottom feeders who aren't contending are willing to just give away their draft picks to the Leafs?

We did just that when we traded for Kessel.....two first and a second....so maybe Burke would be willing to do that same trade over again!

 

[Holymakinaw]

Uhh.. we have 2. Rielly and Nylander.

Who are you counting...?

Clarkson isn't a prospect

I said bluechip prospects/PLAYERS.

Kessel, JVR, Rielly and Nylander are all young bluechip pieces. One is a prospect and three are not.

 

[Al14]

We did just that when we traded for Kessel.....two first and a second....so maybe Burke would be willing to do that same trade over again!

Despite Burke saying he'd do the Kessel trade over again, I highly doubt he'd step up now with 2 1st round picks and a 2nd rounder for Kessel without some form of top 5 pick protection on the 1st rounders!

Burke overestimated the skill of our team when he made the Kessel trade IMHO.

 

[Durrr]

People, unless we win the lottery from the 10th~+ spot, we have absolutely no shot at drafting first or second overall next year. It's not happening, and I really don't understand why people think there is even a possibility that this team can finish bottom 3.

On top of all this, getting fast, real returns for our entire core is just not possible in today's NHL. It takes a couple years to bottom out correctly, and there is just no way management even considers it.

 

[Peace Frog]

We have the potential to beat any team in the league IMO. It's often that we beat the good teams and lose to the bad teams.

We've got a great goalie, one of the top goal scorers... we've got a lot of talent... I like our team a lot right now and I think we've got as good a chance to win as anyone in the East.

Is that you Mr. Nonis?? Sorry. Just couldn't resist.

 

[Commander Clueless]

It worked for last Stanley Cup winners in LA, Chicago and Pitts so that is why its an enticing idea for Toronto to try and emulate.

I'd like to point out, Mess, that historically, Option 1 also includes tanking. Unless we have another shortened season, of course, because outside of that one season we've been pretty thoroughly tank-tastic.

Just sayin'. Status quo = high draft picks.


To be fair, when LA and Chicago struggled with their future Stanley Cup winning pieces, did they explode and restart the rebuild? No, I think they added to said core to make it a winner.

Now I'm not suggesting trading certain "core" players couldn't possibly have any benefit, but a total tear down and restart? That seems rather hasty, no?

Based on these above observations, I believe I shall select Option 1.

 

[Tak7]

People, unless we win the lottery from the 10th~+ spot, we have absolutely no shot at drafting first or second overall next year. It's not happening, and I really don't understand why people think there is even a possibility that this team can finish bottom 3.

On top of all this, getting fast, real returns for our entire core is just not possible in today's NHL. It takes a couple years to bottom out correctly, and there is just no way management even considers it.

Yep.

The Leafs will miss the playoffs, finish middle of the pack, get an average draft pick, and continue down the road to mediocrity.

And we will be having the exact same discussions next summer.

 

[diceman934]

i am sorry. people can wax poetic about "did Burke really have power?" all they like - but it all boils down to the same thing.

Brian Burke came here and in his press conference flat out said. he had 100 percent full autonomy and he had the authority to do what he wanted to build a team in Toronto. His words. He didn't have to say anything. Everyone knew that Ferguson was being a puppet, and that's why when he was fired the whole drama of who is the new GM was kind of what it was: who would work here knowing that they'd be just a puppet again.

Now - if the question is - would he have had the job if he said "well we're gonna have to completely crash and burn and stock pile draft picks - i don't know. that's between Burke the Board and the Flies on the Walls.

What I know is that this big pompous jerk came here - spread a lot of crap, hurt the club (yes i know Kessel is an offensive force, Seguin may not have developed the same yadayayayada, not the point), why? because - quote: he over estimated far the team was talent/development wise. So - instead of you know - trying to rectify the matter and get more picks etc as we now have a massive asset - he gets more players, slaps a C on one simply because he plays music loud, boasts how all the players on the team can be had for first round picks (this is by the way - while we're crashing and burning to kingdom come).

(does manage to get JVR).

gets fired - while the Leafs playing well and making headlines (for good stuff) it's brawhabrawbraw that's my team, I should be getting credit brawbrawbrbaw - but the minute the Leafs gets embarassed by Boston not a peep. (and eleven players he still brought in more or less was part of 3 collapses mind you are still on the team (and the IMPORTANT parts of said team, not the frufruu parts) and barks out "well it's Nonis's team now." (why? because they suck worse now?)

He drafted brawn over skill, he picked flags over talent, he made just as horrendous blunders as Nonis did - but worse - because he had the chance to actually BUILD upon a foundation that wasn't even there. Nonis is trying to steady the beams (he sucks at it and he pisses me the right heck off too).

And once again he says the line that I do not, will not, can not wrap my head why there had been nothing said about this in the media, blogisophere, or leafs fans. Brian Burke had the unmitigated gall to go to Calgary, pick up a microphone, after five years of telling "the Vatican of Hockey and fans who pay good money to not have to sit through a rebuild, draft, schmaft" - (because Meltdowns are so much better).

"I believe through building through the draft,"

the fact that people still miss him, or wish he were still hear, or that he was remotely good for this team, boggles my mind - and I know that I'm one of the most optimistic, good natured, see the best in everyone/everything MLSE presents - but Brian Burke screwed. over. this. team. for FIVE YEARS. And he said he had full automony and what he said goes.

So either he lied - and he was a puppet - and sucked at his job
or he wasn't a puppet - and sucked at his job.

either way - Burke sucked at his job. (i will give him credit for giving us more depth and the players we had because we had 100 percent nothing) and i am not giving him one iota of doubt that his actions were governed by this all encompassing "must make the playoffs." basically -EVERY MARKET's goal is the make the playoffs, and i'm tired of MLSE being slapped with this scarlet P that that's the only thing they want. (see: every other bottom feeder team. the problem is - we're too GOOD to flat out suck, and too bad to go anywhere. that's on the GM for failing to acknowledge or make a move either way, not MLSE - but that's a story for another day).

Burke sucked, ruined this team, Nonis isn't really doing much things better, and I'm willing to give Shanahan a chance (ie: i like the low-key moves he 'authorized' (even though some of them (ie: Bolland) would have made me flip out - and wherever he goes from there.).

100% agree. Burke did have 100% control right up until the new ownership group took over and fired his ass, as they should have.
Now we are stuck in no man's land.....do we continue on and hope that we have drafted a couple of gems that we turn out to be cornerstone pieces or do we ship out the flawed core?

I have to give Shanny credit thus far as he has shopped most of the team without many takers. He understands that he needs to move a few players if we are going to improve.

 

[Peace Frog]

I'm curious as to how trading Phaneuf and Kessel will get us multiple blue chip prospects. How exactly does that work? Is this a fairy tale land where bottom feeders who aren't contending are willing to just give away their draft picks to the Leafs?

Perhaps those bottom feeders are tired of.... well... bottom feeding and want to turn the corner. Adding a player like Kessel, for example, could make for a good start in that direction. Not saying you're wrong, just giving an answer to why a bottom dweller might trade a top pick.

 

[Al14]

Yep.

The Leafs will miss the playoffs, finish middle of the pack, get an average draft pick, and continue down the road to mediocrity.

And we will be having the exact same discussions next summer.

Name change that is LONG OVERDUE: Toronto Mediocre Leafs

 

[Commander Clueless]

Yep.

The Leafs will miss the playoffs, finish middle of the pack, get an average draft pick, and continue down the road to mediocrity.

And we will be having the exact same discussions next summer.

What move that Nonis made, exactly, would catapult this team from bottom ten to "middle of the pack"?

Such a move banks entirely on the unpredictable scale of development of young players, because I'm not seeing any signing or trade thus far that, on paper, makes us a better team.

Mediocrity is not a word that can be used for this team's recent results. Outside of one short year where they were good, they have been bad. Very bad.

 

[Eb]

I would love to see how many people who chose option 2 liked Brian Burke when he was here.

Should be great.

 

[diceman934]

Despite Burke saying he'd do the Kessel trade over again, I highly doubt he'd step up now with 2 1st round picks and a 2nd rounder for Kessel without some form of top 5 pick protection on the 1st rounders!

Burke overestimated the skill of our team when he made the Kessel trade IMHO.

Yes, Burke killed our chance at a real rebuild with his stupidity.....He is the reason we are in this mess and I still can not believe that many on here still love the guy.....funny thing is....the same people think Dion is a number one D man!

 

[Tak7]

What move that Nonis made, exactly, would catapult this team from bottom ten to "middle of the pack"?

Such a move banks entirely on the unpredictable scale of development of young players, because I'm not seeing any signing or trade thus far that, on paper, makes us a better team.

Mediocrity is not a word that can be used for this team's recent results. Outside of one short year where they were good, they have been bad. Very bad.

The play of the top line + Bernier will ensure that this team isn't a lottery team.

The play of everyone else plus the performance of Carlyle will ensure that this team isn't a playoff team.

I think the Leafs will finish where they always finish - just outside the bottom 10.

 

[Peace Frog]

Option one, while I can agree with possibly trading Phaneuf, everyone else in our core is quite good if you surround them with the proper talent.


way way too many people are obsessed with picks on the HFboards, so many guys want more and more picks and value them far higher than players or even prospects.

I think the east is ripe for the taking soon, Boston will regress as soon as chara leaves and they dont have a suitable replacement, everyone else in the east is very flawed.

A smart trade or two and a solid draft pick(tonnes of great players can be had in the later rounds, we just have to have good scouting like other good teams do).

I strongly disagree with the notion that you have to tank for a few years to be good in the NHL, there is so much talent that comes late in the draft as well as through trades and UFA signings that it can happen in so many different ways. We just netted two huge pieces in Rielly and Nylander, I'd imagine we get a top 15-20 pick this season which should net us another great prospect in this deep draft, so I can't see us needing to tank much more as we have less and less positions to fill.

our Top 6 is missing the one big piece obviously, but the rest is great, many teams would want Kessel, JVR, Rielly, Bernier Kadri on their team, and we just added Nylander who has huge top 6 C potential.

This post makes a lot of sense. No arguing that, but I still would be open to trying to get a top pick (or two) in this next draft. Toronto needs AND DESERVES to have a true franchise player to build around. If we could trade for a young one of those, then I'm all for it. Problem is, I don't know of any teams looking to unload one.

The only realistic way of getting one of those, is through the draft. Sure, you might be able to uncover a hidden gem or two in the latter rounds, but the more likely way to get a real impact, franchise talent, is by picking in the top two or three.

 

[Commander Clueless]

The play of the top line + Bernier will ensure that this team isn't a lottery team.

The play of everyone else plus the performance of Carlyle will ensure that this team isn't a playoff team.

I think the Leafs will finish where they always finish - just outside the bottom 10.

The Leafs do not always finish just outside the bottom ten. They have not finished outside the bottom 10 since what, 2007? With the exception of the short season, of course. So 6 out of the last 7 years ish?

The top line and Bernier didn't keep them out of the bottom 10 this past season, keeping in mind that Bernier was hurt of course.

Assuming the Leafs' kids don't improve at all, this is probably a bottom ten team based on historical evidence. They didn't do a whole lot to improve upon their key weakness in defense. Factor in key injuries, and..well...

If the kids hit their "developmental stride" so to speak, who knows where they end up?

I feel like some of you are still in the JFJ era, where we were an ongoing machine of mediocrity. This is 2014, where the Leafs are a trainwreck.

Finishing outside the bottom 10 in the league would mean the team made some fairly significant improvement this offseason.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Sorry guys as awesome as Kessel is he is NOT the guy you build around. He is an additional asset you acquire when you think you are set (ex: Gaborik by Kings).

Quite frankly its an absolute shame that we have no one to build around with 10 years of sucking. May be Reilly I guess. But seriously WTFranson!!!



I used to be one of the guys that always favoured Burke. but seeing what he is doing with the Flames seriously **** HIM. **** THAT MOTHER ****ER!

Flames now have Mohanan and Bennett

Leafs have what? ****ing tyler bozak? ****ing BS

Burke was truly a DB. Hated him. F*%# him. F%&* the Flames too.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Despite Burke saying he'd do the Kessel trade over again, I highly doubt he'd step up now with 2 1st round picks and a 2nd rounder for Kessel without some form of top 5 pick protection on the 1st rounders!

Burke overestimated the skill of our team when he made the Kessel trade IMHO.

Ego-centric jerks like BB wont admit mistakes. Its just not in him to do so. He can do no wrong in his mind because he is a legend...in his own mind.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

The poll should also have a third option....

Best Chance of Winning the Cup is....

3.) Root for the LA Kings or Chicago Black Hawks.

 

[Commander Clueless]

The poll should also have a third option....

Best Chance of Winning the Cup is....

3.) Root for the LA Kings or Chicago Black Hawks.

Well I think it's implied they are talking about the Leafs winning the Cup.


Although it would be interesting to have an Option 3 on this poll that read "Aliens" and see how many people actually think there's a better chance that Leaf-loving aliens would intervene on their behalf than the team actually succeeding in winning a cup through normal, fair means.

I'm guessing #3 would hold the overwhelming majority.

 

[Daisy Jane]

the thing is - i think people see it either or

Option 1 - or Option 2.

where as, we can always take the pick + a player back. (maybe not so much - #1s ) but some number 2s.. Something I've been noticing is that a lot of GMs are getting very greedy (Like you need a player a prospect and a pick for one player - where very simply a prospect/pick a player/pick, or heck - 2 picks would do).

Trading Phaneuf for a mid-range (good) prospect for a team wanting to win now & a pick would be a good hockey trade for us (in a sense - this depends on your view if having Dion on the Leafs is a good thing or not. most people just can't stand a lot of people on our team flat out). Same with Kessel (I just think we lose our game-breaker, but the question is are we in need of a game-breaker of Kessel's nature now).

Shanahan said it best and a I personally feel that a lot of people who are angry (which - I agree with i'm pissed and angry too) went "Oh here we go again) but I don't think we're wrong. I don't think we're as crap as the crashes show - but I don't think we're good as our highs show either - we're not 'tuned' correctly. So I don't blame Shanahan for taking his time and moving little piece by little piece.

the biggest problem with our club as I personally see it - is that mostly every single player on the team is playing in roles that aren't suited for them. and I think if you have to add "for our team." it means that they aren't a #1. (and yes -most of the time those people are drafted).

Kessel - is a #1 line winger. the problem - we do not have a a proper number 1 centre. I don't mind Bozak (I don't want to trigger leafstilldeath ) but i think for years of success - Bozak can't be the #1 centre on any team - not how the NHL is designed for right now.

Our defense is the same way.

Dion would be better as the 2nd (or third). Moving Gunnarson out - actually made everyone else slide down a spot, and in my mind - give the opportunity to both Jake & Mo to either A: play more #1 minutes (as that's what they are projected to be) without having them committed there (see Robidas - who will be playing the minutes). little moves like that - keeping the 'younger players' committed, and having them slide up where they should be - is good. rather than simply trading everyone off via a fire-sale, and just having picks

this season - quite frankly would be a good season to not do as well - get some centres, but i think if the deals make sense, and the Leafs are willing to not get back much - to get some help - then going the way we're going isn't that bad (specifically when- if we're going 'by picks' we've got quite a # of high draft picks, and we're not happy with a number of them )

 

[Daisy Jane]

Despite Burke saying he'd do the Kessel trade over again, I highly doubt he'd step up now with 2 1st round picks and a 2nd rounder for Kessel without some form of top 5 pick protection on the 1st rounders!

Burke overestimated the skill of our team when he made the Kessel trade IMHO.

the argument i have always gotten was that the trade wouldn't have gone through (Had the picks been top five protected) and in theory had the pick been top 5 protected - we'd have Seguin - not not Hamilton or Rielly.

and he didn't overestimate the skill of the team - he overestimated how far - developed - the team was. (which in my opinion is a massive difference). You can look at Edmonton and see their roster in their top six and they are dripping with skill. but they're not developed as much as I think the fan base would like (not enough to move out of the top ten of drafting, at any rate).

the Leafs at the time of the trade (my timeline is so fuzzy now) wasn't that talented - but we were 7th overall in drafting (ergo - we were bad). How on earth (and I like Kessel) do you look at a Kessel - and go "Oh yah THIS WORKS!" is beyond me.

Again - I also look at the fact that around this time - one Mr. Steven Stamkos - the guy who flat out admitted he was looking at the NHL standings and saw that the Leafs were free falling and it would be 'nice if the Leafs fell enough to get him.' comes up as a restricted free agent, Tampa right now is in GM flux, ownership flux - and basically ripe for the picking: A Number. One. Centre.

You have the might of the MLSE behind you - how do you NOT TENDER AN OFFER SHEET? I would have offered 10 million ++ dollars and if my timeline/years are right - that's Seguin, Hamilton, Kadri and Rielly.

But we have Seguin & our 2nds. (so we can package other players up - try to get later 1st rounders) and build around Stamkos. (You know. Like TAMPA DID).

But, Burke doesn't believe in the offer sheet because you know someone offered for Dustin freaking Penner and how dare Kevin Lowe. they aren't honourable. What. ever.

there is no upper level limits to my Burke Hatred. none whatsoever.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Option 1 is a way to try and "speed up" a rebuild.
It's what Burke tried.
If he was successful, we'd call him a genius. But if he fails, he's SEVERELY damaged the foundation of the team and is a flat out villain.
He gambled. He failed. And now this team will seriously suffer for it.
That's what's happened.

Option 2 is the longer option, but for RICH TEAMS is almost a sure path to success. (Don't bother pointing out some ridiculously poor teams who are stuck in never ending rebuilding due to financial problems).
Edmonton chose option 2, and they're full of utterly elite stars who are currently all 19-24. Of course their borderline teenagers aren't quite there yet. But they have the foundation to be a spectacular team for close to the next decade.

With Burke's "retool", the leafs core players range from 18-30. When some hit their primes, others will be far past theirs. All while Edmontons teenagers are growing into their primes together.
It's a mess.
What a DISASTER Burke has been for this franchise.

 

[Menzinger]

There are more than two options: so the initial poll is a flawed one. For example, it'd be silly to move Kessel, yet keep Bernier. If you're going to bottom out, you might as well go for it.

I'd much prefer to keep our most talented players like Kessel, but move out our other more expensive players (Phaneuf, Lupul, and even Clarkson if possible). We'd still likely get some bottom 5 picks. Kessel is good enough, and young enough that he'd be able to contribute after a full 4-5 year rebuild quite easily. The only way i'd trade Kessel is a quality for quality trade (ie like for Mackinnon or Sequin) and not for a bunch of depth (like what Columbus got for Nash).

Drafting high is a very important way of getting talent: but it's not a guarantee. The draft is now weighted much differently (worst team only has around 25% chance of getting the 1st overall), and there are lots of examples of teams who tank and show minimal signs of improvement (Oilers). You need to keep some talent.