jkutswings
hot piss hockey
- Jul 10, 2014
- 11,040
- 8,790
Injury Report: Bertuzzi to IR (out six weeks), Czarnik recalled
- Thread starter redwings8831
- Start date
Henkka
Registered User
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
- 29,227
- 13,761
Gun to your head who would you rather have on the 1st line? Bertuzzi or Suter?
Henkka
Registered User
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
- 29,227
- 13,761
And Tyler would never in a million years sign a 4 year deal in his best chance to cash in unless you're giving him 10M/yr.
haulinbass
Registered User
- Mar 6, 2014
- 1,425
- 1,088
I can't believe some on here suggest that Bertuzzi is useless. He is literally our 2nd maybe 3rd best forward depending how you weight attributes. I will agree, his limited games this season he hasn't done much. He started to show life making plays over the last couple games before reinjury. Completely understand it was going to take him a bit to get going again though. This isn't 5 games into the season anymore, teams are about hitting midseason form. Obviously nobody would be a big enough fool to judge him as a player over a few games back from injury. So that leaves me with the idea that some of you guys really don't process the hockey that is on your TV screens.
The reality is, last season Bertuzzi did a hell of a lot more than Raymond per shift, a lot more than Kubalik has done this season, etc. I'm going to simplify this. Bertuzzi can actually skate around with the puck on his stick for more than 4 seconds at a time before having to get rid of it. Bertuzzi is really the only other player on our team besides Larkin that can drive play. Kubalik and Raymond are both oppertunistic wingers. They both can make it count when they get an oppertunity, but you need players that can actually play the game with the puck on their stick a bit. The more and better play drivers you have the more guys like Raymond and Kubalik will score. Yes, I understand both Raymond and Kubalik can make great passes and get assists too. They can hold onto the puck when the teams setup inside the offensive zone and find passes (mostly on the PP). If they couldn't then they probably wouldn't be here. I also understand that Raymond and Kubalik at times skate with the puck and create nice plays too. The important factor to understand here is the difference of frequency each of these players do these things. You can't have selectice memory and recall a few moments and use that to defy this point. It's about how often each game, not finding 12 highlights of it during a full season. So a part of what I'm trying to get at is they don't fair so well under pressure trying to get setup. Once setup 5on5 and the pressure is alleviated is likely when you guys make connections in your head that Raymond and Kubalik are great and can make plays outside of the PP. It is scarce outside those settings. Larkin and Bertuzzi are the guys that get things calmed down, because they can operate under pressure and create enough separation to give us a chance to get setup 5on5 or atleast opened up to make a play. They got talent of course, but there is a difference. Them guys aren't skating up and down the ice with the puck all game like Larkin. Bertuzzi obviously doesn't do this as much as Larkin, but he does it more than any of our other forwards. Right now we rely on our defense heavily to contribute because our forwards can't do enough of it. Especially Hronek. We are relying way to much on dumping the puck or making a series of passes just to get through neutral zone, because we don't have enough guys that can just simply skate it down on a routine basis. Having to overactivate your defense also comes with its drawbacks risking getting a D caught up ice on a turnover. Bertuzzi can help us a bit with that. Perron is good at driving play inside the offensive zone, probably better than Bertuzzi and right there with Larkin. But he isn't great for skating the puck up the ice. Notably the biggest difference in this aspect between Perron vs Raymond/Kubalik, is that Perron can operate in traffic/pressure and retain the puck to get things slowed down so guys like Raymond and Kubalik can operate their talents. A likely scenario for Raymond and Kubalik in these situations, is if they get a chance at coming up with the puck is to chip it back to the D or around the boards which doesn't always work in those situations as that's exactly what the defensive team is anticipating. Perron, Bertuzzi and Larkin can walk right out with the puck and make a play on their OWN terms, not have to force a desperate play. In those situations Ray/Kub may get the puck to the intended guy, but typically pressure is already closing on the player receiving the puck. Again, Perron, Bertuzzi and Larkin can walk out with the puck from coverage free and clear and make a play. Not have to pass on the pressure to the next teammate. Which can just lead to another battle for possesion or another desperate play. This is part of what makes for that frustrating nonfluent hockey. When you feel like we just can't get anything clicking. Its these little things that change the flow of the game. Its also a good example of the difference having some elite players (especially centers) not just good ones. These are just a few of the things people just don't seem to process when watching these players. Honestly, the last couple games. Berggren is looking like the next player be a real contributer for us in this aspect. The kid is poised with the puck and plays the game on his terms, he can really open things up for himself and his teammates. I'm really liking what I see from him at the NHL level so far. Could have a couple nice young swede wingers on our hands, a scorer in Raymond and a driving playmaker in Berggren. Both types of players are great, but it's the type like Berggren we are really hurting for. Not having a legit 2nd line center, further increases the need of having play driving wingers which aren't as common as you would think in this league.
I understand the arguement being skeptical to sign him if it requires a longterm contract. You won't get any pushback from me if that's how you feel. I'm also concerned how he would hold up to a longterm contract. But if we are talking right now, Bertuzzi is one of the best forwards of this group. He is a very smart hockey player that brings a bit of everything. Playoff teams will be all over him considering he can establish staying healthy once he returns again.
The reality is, last season Bertuzzi did a hell of a lot more than Raymond per shift, a lot more than Kubalik has done this season, etc. I'm going to simplify this. Bertuzzi can actually skate around with the puck on his stick for more than 4 seconds at a time before having to get rid of it. Bertuzzi is really the only other player on our team besides Larkin that can drive play. Kubalik and Raymond are both oppertunistic wingers. They both can make it count when they get an oppertunity, but you need players that can actually play the game with the puck on their stick a bit. The more and better play drivers you have the more guys like Raymond and Kubalik will score. Yes, I understand both Raymond and Kubalik can make great passes and get assists too. They can hold onto the puck when the teams setup inside the offensive zone and find passes (mostly on the PP). If they couldn't then they probably wouldn't be here. I also understand that Raymond and Kubalik at times skate with the puck and create nice plays too. The important factor to understand here is the difference of frequency each of these players do these things. You can't have selectice memory and recall a few moments and use that to defy this point. It's about how often each game, not finding 12 highlights of it during a full season. So a part of what I'm trying to get at is they don't fair so well under pressure trying to get setup. Once setup 5on5 and the pressure is alleviated is likely when you guys make connections in your head that Raymond and Kubalik are great and can make plays outside of the PP. It is scarce outside those settings. Larkin and Bertuzzi are the guys that get things calmed down, because they can operate under pressure and create enough separation to give us a chance to get setup 5on5 or atleast opened up to make a play. They got talent of course, but there is a difference. Them guys aren't skating up and down the ice with the puck all game like Larkin. Bertuzzi obviously doesn't do this as much as Larkin, but he does it more than any of our other forwards. Right now we rely on our defense heavily to contribute because our forwards can't do enough of it. Especially Hronek. We are relying way to much on dumping the puck or making a series of passes just to get through neutral zone, because we don't have enough guys that can just simply skate it down on a routine basis. Having to overactivate your defense also comes with its drawbacks risking getting a D caught up ice on a turnover. Bertuzzi can help us a bit with that. Perron is good at driving play inside the offensive zone, probably better than Bertuzzi and right there with Larkin. But he isn't great for skating the puck up the ice. Notably the biggest difference in this aspect between Perron vs Raymond/Kubalik, is that Perron can operate in traffic/pressure and retain the puck to get things slowed down so guys like Raymond and Kubalik can operate their talents. A likely scenario for Raymond and Kubalik in these situations, is if they get a chance at coming up with the puck is to chip it back to the D or around the boards which doesn't always work in those situations as that's exactly what the defensive team is anticipating. Perron, Bertuzzi and Larkin can walk right out with the puck and make a play on their OWN terms, not have to force a desperate play. In those situations Ray/Kub may get the puck to the intended guy, but typically pressure is already closing on the player receiving the puck. Again, Perron, Bertuzzi and Larkin can walk out with the puck from coverage free and clear and make a play. Not have to pass on the pressure to the next teammate. Which can just lead to another battle for possesion or another desperate play. This is part of what makes for that frustrating nonfluent hockey. When you feel like we just can't get anything clicking. Its these little things that change the flow of the game. Its also a good example of the difference having some elite players (especially centers) not just good ones. These are just a few of the things people just don't seem to process when watching these players. Honestly, the last couple games. Berggren is looking like the next player be a real contributer for us in this aspect. The kid is poised with the puck and plays the game on his terms, he can really open things up for himself and his teammates. I'm really liking what I see from him at the NHL level so far. Could have a couple nice young swede wingers on our hands, a scorer in Raymond and a driving playmaker in Berggren. Both types of players are great, but it's the type like Berggren we are really hurting for. Not having a legit 2nd line center, further increases the need of having play driving wingers which aren't as common as you would think in this league.
I understand the arguement being skeptical to sign him if it requires a longterm contract. You won't get any pushback from me if that's how you feel. I'm also concerned how he would hold up to a longterm contract. But if we are talking right now, Bertuzzi is one of the best forwards of this group. He is a very smart hockey player that brings a bit of everything. Playoff teams will be all over him considering he can establish staying healthy once he returns again.
Last edited:
NickH8
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2015
- 3,692
- 3,843
Yeah calling him useless is stupid. I'm skeptical of a long term deal but the dudes an elite player.
Damn are you his agent? I don't think he sniffs 10 million. I feel like the Copp deal would be acceptable for Bert.
MBH
Players Play
People are overreacting to hand injuries.
If Bertuzzi was out with a back injury - fine.
But since 18-19, Bertuzzi's numbers are:
230 games 78-90-168
Unless Detroit has reason to believe Bertuzzi's back injury is why he looked bad in VERY LIMITED viewings this year, it's insane to just toss him away.
If anything, this is a gift for Detroit.
His asking power is diminishing by the second.
We could get a 5x$7M deal - and that would be just fine.
JediOrderPizza
Registered User
MBH
Players Play
Not hard to figure out at all.
Bert gets maybe 1 overpaid year at $7M
Vs Larkin getting 2 @ 9M.
JediOrderPizza
Registered User
FabricDetails
HF still in need of automated text analytics
- Mar 30, 2009
- 8,148
- 3,911
We still don't know why Lindstrom has been out? Not that it (Edit: the reason for being out) matters a whole lot, just light curiosity.
jaster
Take me off ignore, please.
- Jun 8, 2007
- 13,279
- 8,504
He did quietly move from IR back to the active roster sometime this past week. We may see him back in the lineup as soon as Oesterle inevitably implodes.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
- Jul 10, 2014
- 11,040
- 8,790
Not sure if this is the case here, but sometimes people value gritty play over scoring to the point that they view the NHL through a Don Cherry-esque lens.
Snuggs
Registered User
- Jun 24, 2018
- 2,274
- 1,088
I feel this way as well.
I like him and all but... Idk I think it's just time to part ways and spend the money elsewhere this offseason. It's kind of being proven he's replaceable.
Anyone think Bertuzzi could fetch a 1st rdp from the NYR, Wild, Flames, Blues or Predators? One of those fringe teams that might fall off hard? (or we would hope falls hard) we'd have to take a cap dump back essentially but just wondering how in play those types of picks are for someone like Bertuzzi?
MBH
Players Play
No. If Bertuzzi wants more than 5 years, trade him.
If Larkin wants 8x$9.5M - welp.
Well, that's part of what makes Bertuzzi awesome.
But it's more a factor of less money, over 3 less years.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
- 29,227
- 13,761
Not at all. Lick the finger, check the prevailing winds of Wing fan opinion, take opposing position. He's not the only one.
Gniwder
Registered User
Henkka
Registered User
Statistical Bertuzzi:
Red Wings current Top player at Corsi For/Against:
Red Wings Top3 player at GF%, and not playing easy minutes against opposite 4th lines like Berggren and Veleno. And not carried by Larkin, has played most with Copp as his center.
One of the top players at xGF% and "positive" +50%, again, not against any easy lines.
Most minutes with Raymond, and Copp as his center.
Red Wings current Top player at Corsi For/Against:
Red Wings Top3 player at GF%, and not playing easy minutes against opposite 4th lines like Berggren and Veleno. And not carried by Larkin, has played most with Copp as his center.
One of the top players at xGF% and "positive" +50%, again, not against any easy lines.
Most minutes with Raymond, and Copp as his center.
SoupNazi
Serenity now. Insanity later.
- Feb 6, 2010
- 26,430
- 14,624
NickH8
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2015
- 3,692
- 3,843
I think part of the reason he looked bad in the small sample size we have is he was probably still recovering a little and playing with a lesser center. I'm not concerned about his play really.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
- 29,227
- 13,761
This is such a disingenuous sample size. Check his opponents.
MTL
NJD when the fans were chanting fire Lindy, pre hot streak
ANA
SJ
CBJ
NSH
AZ
TOR
BUF
JediOrderPizza
Registered User
So it's actually a yes, as long as it's 5 years. That's crazy to me, why would you trade Larkin but keep Bertuzzi, if you are moving Larkin then you should be moving Bertuzzi as well, who is a year older. Since you worry so much about Larkin's final years.
It's just ass backwards thinking.
It's obviously as you say difficult to compare players that have played full season with players that have played just a few games. Correct way to do this comparison is to look at just those games.
A note though. Since I see you highlighting it, NJD had excellent analytics vs Detroit, they just got goalied in that first game vs Detroit. The first line of Larkin, Raymond and Bertuzzi had an xGF% of around 10% in that game.
Thus for xGF% etc. That game definitely drags his Analytics down, rather than improve it.
