Bears and NFL Talk Thread LIV: Khalil Mack's a Bear!

[ChiHawks10]

Well I was just showcasing how his busting hurt organization more then a RB busting

Ennis set Bears back a few years. Grossman and QB situation actively sunk Bears during best contending window in franchise history since mid 80's

Also look at what Rex had and failed miserably with

A good veteran OL that was strong for several years
A good 1-2 punch at WR in Muhammad and Berrian + a good all around TE in Clark (Still wished for more depth at WR as Davis was ok but Bradley was mediocre)
A devastating 1-2 punch at RB (Before our idiot GM traded away Jones)
An Elite D
An Elite ST

So if you want to talk about impact the failure of player had on organization Rex busting was the most costly in Bears history

It was pretty costly. But IIRC, Grossman didn't cost the Bears the SB that year. At least in my opinion. Coaching mistakes were a big deal in that SB.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Now that we are talking about failings of Bears past

What about the god awful trades that just proved to have no redeeming value

Worst in franchise history?

Some candidates

- Trading a 1st round pick for an already busting Rick Mirer who had lost job in Seattle
- Trading Greg Olsen away because Martz didn't like him
- Trading a fading but still serviceable Mike Ditka for QB Jack Concannon a QB who was so bad people actually wondered if he was blind since he seemed to thrive at nothing but throwing ball to opponent
- Trading a 1st rounder and 4th rounder for QB Mike Phipps in 1977. Browns then traded that 1st rounder to move down a few spots and still walked away with future HOF Ozzie Newsome. Phipps would throw just 15 TD's in parts of 5 years with Bears to 27 INT's

I still cant believe we gave up a 1st round pick for Rick f***ing Mirer. Our reward was no TD's in his 7 games (3 starts) and 6 INT's

 

[TheSting]

Bears were minus their 2 big all pro playmakers in the Superbowl, Mike Brown and Tommie Harris.

Mike Brown especially was a huge loss in the secondary directing traffic vs Peyton Manning

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

It was pretty costly. But IIRC, Grossman didn't cost the Bears the SB that year. At least in my opinion. Coaching mistakes were a big deal in that SB.

Rex had two god awful INT's (One returned for TD) and two fumble in game

How exactly did he not lose game? Sure Turner deserves as much blame for abandoning run but reality was Colts could load box to stop Jones because they knew Grossman was joke and once Benson got hurt Turner unleashed Rex who proceeded to hand game to Colts

With Griese the Bears win SB ,, I will always believe that

Lovie , Turner and Rex deserve blame for that loss

 

[AmericanDream]

Well I was just showcasing how his busting hurt organization more then a RB busting

Ennis set Bears back a few years. Grossman and QB situation actively sunk Bears during best contending window in franchise history since mid 80's

Also look at what Rex had and failed miserably with

A good veteran OL that was strong for several years
A good 1-2 punch at WR in Muhammad and Berrian + a good all around TE in Clark (Still wished for more depth at WR as Davis was ok but Bradley was mediocre)
A devastating 1-2 punch at RB (Before our idiot GM traded away Jones)
An Elite D
An Elite ST

So if you want to talk about impact the failure of player had on organization Rex busting was the most costly in Bears history

I am not talking about negative impact the player had on an organization based on other assets not gotten, and I am saying that simply doesn't matter.

That is not on Grossman, that is on management.

Ennis was a complete bust...complete bust...I still am not seeing how you can call Grossman a bust in the same sense as Ennis or Tyrell, etc..

And I would put Grossman as the 2nd best QB of his draft class, or third if Leftowich was your guy...he still is one of the best guys picked for his position and you have to compare that as well within his own draft.

 

[AmericanDream]

Bears were minus their 2 big all pro playmakers in the Superbowl, Mike Brown and Tommie Harris.

Mike Brown especially was a huge loss in the secondary directing traffic vs Peyton Manning

Mike Brown was one of the most impressive defensive players I have ever had the pleasure of watching....loved that guy, he was a beast and such a shame he wasn't out there against the Colts.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Bears were minus their 2 big all pro playmakers in the Superbowl, Mike Brown and Tommie Harris.

Mike Brown especially was a huge loss in the secondary directing traffic vs Peyton Manning

And D despite spending 2/3 of game on field vs one of the best offenses in NFL still kept them in it

Bears D surrendered

1 Pass TD
1 Rush TD
3 FG's

One of those FG's if I recall came off Rex INT and Rex threw Colts a TD on INT to seal game in 4th qtr

10 pts because of Rex

Bears lost 29-17

Bears D also forced 3 Turnovers that game but couldn't overcome the many Bears turnovers almost all from Grossman

Now that I think of it I believe two of the Colts FG's came off Rex turnovers. Anyone else remember game enough or did everyone try best to block it out of mind?

If that is case it would be 13 pts because of Rex

 

[Kurtosis]

And he is the worst starting QB in NFL History

Who's performance is up there for possibly the worst performance from a QB in a SB

Worst starting QB in NFL history based on what metric?

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Worst starting QB in NFL history based on what metric?

Oops meant SB history

 

[ChiHawks10]

Rex had two god awful INT's (One returned for TD) and a fumble in game

How exactly did he not lose game? Sure Turner deserves as much blame for abandoning run but reality was Colts could load box to stop Jones because they knew Grossman was joke and once Benson got hurt Turner unleashed Rex who proceeded to hand game to Colts

With Griese the Bears win SB ,, I will always believe that

Lovie , Turner and Rex deserve blame for that loss

Turner was my issue. Abandoning the run. He had a chance to run the ball on what I believe was a second and 1 in the beginning of the 2nd half. He called a pass, Grossman was sacked, and then fumbled the snap the next play.

And with that D, how do you let the Colts put up 430 yards of offense? I mean... really? That can only be attributed to being out-coached on that side of the ball. They let Dominic Rhodes and Joseph Addai go off for almost 200 yards rushing on them... Seriously?

Don't get me wrong, Rex definitely played a big role in it, but he wasn't the biggest factor, IMO. They could have, and should have won that game with Grossman. Benson saw like 2 or 3 carries the whole game before he got hurt, and I believe he fumbled one if I remember it right?

Just a lot of shit went wrong...

I can't entirely blame turnovers. Both teams turned the ball over an insane amount of times. I'd say the blame goes 70% coaching, 20% Grossman, and 10% injuries, honestly. As I believe Tommie Harris and Mike Brown both didn't play.

 

[AmericanDream]

Worst starting QB in NFL history based on what metric?

before he just corrected, I was going to say of course the BWC metric!!

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

And I would put Grossman as the 2nd best QB of his draft class, or third if Leftowich was your guy...he still is one of the best guys picked for his position and you have to compare that as well within his own draft.

Lefty was certainly better QB then Rex

Problem was he came into NFL already with a rod in his leg and physically broke down after his 3rd NFL season (He looked very promising after year 3)

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Turner was my issue. Abandoning the run. He had a chance to run the ball on what I believe was a second and 1 in the beginning of the 2nd half. He called a pass, Grossman was sacked, and then fumbled the snap the next play.

And with that D, how do you let the Colts put up 430 yards of offense? I mean... really? That can only be attributed to being out-coached on that side of the ball. They let Dominic Rhodes and Joseph Addai go off for almost 200 yards rushing on them... Seriously?

Don't get me wrong, Rex definitely played a big role in it, but he wasn't the biggest factor, IMO. They could have, and should have won that game with Grossman. Benson saw like 2 or 3 carries the whole game before he got hurt, and I believe he fumbled one if I remember it right?

Just a lot of **** went wrong...

I can't entirely blame turnovers. Both teams turned the ball over an insane amount of times. I'd say the blame goes 75% coaching, 25% Grossman, honestly.

Bears D was on field for nearly 40 minutes so of course they were going to allow yds

And guess what the D bent but never broke

Anyone blaming D for game is absurd especially since they still held the vaunted Colts offense to low scores. And as pointed out Rex put pts on board for Colts

He deserves far more then the generous 25% your giving him. He accounted for most of our turnovers. Only the Benson one sticks out as not a Grossman turnover

 

[No Fun Shogun]

How many teams passed on Rodgers? Rex was a bust, although not to the level of the other players (Enis, McCown, Terrell) mentioned, but I don't think you can bring Rodgers into the equation. They weren't the same draft year and aren't really related. But if we are going to use that logic for some reason, the Bears took kicker Paul Edinger 25 picks before Brady.

A lot of teams passed on Rodgers, but the fact that we had drafted Grossman two years earlier was the reason the Bears chose not to accept a present that was absolutely presented to them despite it still being a position of need and him being the obvious best player available. And regardless of other teams passing as well, Rodgers very particularly clownpounded us regularly and for a long while as a direct result of that decision, so it's a double whammy for the Bears. Add Rodgers to the team and suddenly you have a competent QB in the picture when the Bears D is elite as hell and we have the draft picks that we didn't spend on Cutler to keep the team going down the road.

And the difference between Brady and Rodgers is that essentially nobody projected Brady to be great while literally everybody was projecting Rodgers as essentially a step or two below a Luck-level lock. Brady was essentially like Zetterberg, a guy that appeared to have a low ceiling and then holy **** a hall of famer out of nowhere. There wasn't a scout alive that projected that one, nor was there one that projected anything remotely close to what Brady developed into.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

And he is the worst starting QB in Super Bowl history

Who's performance is up there for possibly the worst performance from a QB in a SB

Kerry Collins 15/39 112 yds 0 TD 4 INTs (1 pick 6) 7.1 rating

 

[AmericanDream]

And D despite spending 2/3 of game on field vs one of the best offenses in NFL still kept them in it

Bears D surrendered

1 Pass TD
1 Rush TD
3 FG's

One of those FG's if I recall came off Rex INT and Rex threw Colts a TD on INT to seal game in 4th qtr

10 pts because of Rex

Bears lost 29-17

Bears D also forced 3 Turnovers that game but couldn't overcome the many Bears turnovers almost all from Grossman

Now that I think of it I believe two of the Colts FG's came off Rex turnovers. Anyone else remember game enough or did everyone try best to block it out of mind?

If that is case it would be 13 pts because of Rex

why are you ignoring Rex's TD pass???

 

[ChiHawks10]

Bears D was on field for nearly 40 minutes so of course they were going to allow yds

And guess what the D bent but never broke

Anyone blaming D for game is absurd especially since they still held the vaunted Colts offense to low scores. And as pointed out Rex put pts on board for Colts

He deserves far more then the generous 25% your giving him. He accounted for most of our turnovers. Only the Benson one sticks out as not a Grossman turnover

Weather was a factor, also, especially in turnovers. I think each team had 3 fumbles in the first half alone, IIRC. And I even remember back to back plays leading to turnovers on fumbles.

I was blaming the coaching, not the D. The Bears D was out-coached by Dungy and his offense.

I edited to modify. 70% coaching - 20% Rex - 10% injuries.

I doubt Indy puts up 200 yards on the ground with Mike Brown and Tommie Harris playing.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

why are you ignoring Rex's TD pass???

You mean the one setup by Jones big run into redzone?

 

[AmericanDream]

A lot of teams passed on Rodgers, but the fact that we had drafted Grossman two years earlier was the reason the Bears chose not to accept a present that was absolutely presented to them despite it still being a position of need and him being the obvious best player available. And regardless of other teams passing as well, Rodgers very particularly clownpounded us regularly and for a long while as a direct result of that decision, so it's a double whammy for the Bears. Add Rodgers to the team and suddenly you have a competent QB in the picture when the Bears D is elite as hell and we have the draft picks that we didn't spend on Cutler to keep the team going down the road.

And the difference between Brady and Rodgers is that essentially nobody projected Brady to be great while literally everybody was projecting Rodgers as essentially a step or two below a Luck-level lock. He was essentially like Zetterberg, a guy that appeared to have a low ceiling and then holy **** a hall of famer out of nowhere. There wasn't a prospect alive that projected that one, nor was there one that projected anything remotely close to what Brady developed into.

I really don't understand this...if we do not draft Grossman in 03, who do we draft at 22nd? who is our current QB in the regular season? and why would Rodgers be our guy 2 years later, wouldn't we draft a guy in 04 at QB if we never got Grossman?

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Weather was a factor, also, especially in turnovers. I think each team had 3 fumbles in the first half alone, IIRC. And I even remember back to back plays leading to turnovers on fumbles.

I was blaming the coaching, not the D. The Bears D was out-coached by Dungy and his offense.

I would say the depleted Bears D put up a valiant effort in face of Grossman and coaching vs one of the best offenses in NFL and put Bears in position to easily win

If our QB and coaches were not disasters

 

[AmericanDream]

You mean the one setup by Jones big run into redzone?

no, the pass he threw in the end zone...that pass...

so we now ignore a RBs 4 yard TD run after a 65 yard bomb from QB to WR?? What are you smoking man??

 

[ChiHawks10]

A lot of teams passed on Rodgers, but the fact that we had drafted Grossman two years earlier was the reason the Bears chose not to accept a present that was absolutely presented to them despite it still being a position of need and him being the obvious best player available. And regardless of other teams passing as well, Rodgers very particularly clownpounded us regularly and for a long while as a direct result of that decision, so it's a double whammy for the Bears. Add Rodgers to the team and suddenly you have a competent QB in the picture when the Bears D is elite as hell and we have the draft picks that we didn't spend on Cutler to keep the team going down the road.

And the difference between Brady and Rodgers is that essentially nobody projected Brady to be great while literally everybody was projecting Rodgers as essentially a step or two below a Luck-level lock. Brady was essentially like Zetterberg, a guy that appeared to have a low ceiling and then holy **** a hall of famer out of nowhere. There wasn't a prospect alive that projected that one, nor was there one that projected anything remotely close to what Brady developed into.

Rodgers slipped all the way down to 24th... I don't remember him being projected as a lock.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

I really don't understand this...if we do not draft Grossman in 03, who do we draft at 22nd? who is our current QB in the regular season? and why would Rodgers be our guy 2 years later, wouldn't we draft a guy in 04 at QB if we never got Grossman?

Do you recall the fact Bears had Jake Plummer wanting to come to Chicago but passed on him that summer to sign Kordell Steward and draft a QB instead

Jake Plummer signing as FA = No Grossman and things again could have been much different

Jake was far more talented then Stewart but Bears wanted to go cheap and signed Stewart and then threw away a 1st round pick on Grossman

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

no, the pass he threw in the end zone...that pass...

so we now ignore a RBs 4 yard TD run after a 65 yard bomb from QB to WR?? What are you smoking man??

You mean the 4 yd pass setup when Thomas Jones ran ball 52 yds to the Colts 5?

Yeah amazing job by Rex carrying offense on that drive

What 65 yard bomb to WR are you talking about?

Rex did throw a 56 yd TD to Colts CB Kelvin Hayden in 4th qtr

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I really don't understand this...if we do not draft Grossman in 03, who do we draft at 22nd? who is our current QB in the regular season? and why would Rodgers be our guy 2 years later, wouldn't we draft a guy in 04 at QB if we never got Grossman?

I never said we shouldn't have drafted Grossman, I'm not using hindsight by that much. I am absolutely saying that the fact that we had Grossman should not have remotely precluded consideration of picking up Rodgers when he was shockingly available to us.