Battlefield V (2018)

[Throw More Waffles]

Uhhh... yes? Among other things? Like the systemic issues of perpetual under-funding of humanities departments, or abysmal primary/secondary curriculum? Anybody who goes through life able and willing to accept fiction as fact has been failed by the people in their lives who should have taught them better. Why is blaming the fiction itself somehow the more reasonable option here? Because your kids are too lazy to pick up a book or actually listen to you in class so now the responsibility shifts to the media they consume? Man, I played Mortal Kombat in elementary school and I never once believed the human body had eight rib cages. **** ain't hard.

But also let's keep in mind that the stakes at play here are... being able to pick a female character model if you want? If there's a slope here (there's not), it isn't that slippery.

Got it. You don’t care about fake history in the media, even to the point of propaganda, because if the propaganda works, it’s just “all of their teachers fault”.

I completely disagree and think fake history is a problem bigger than “just the teachers”.

 

[syz]

Got it. You don’t care about fake history in the media, even to the point of propaganda, because if the propaganda works, it’s just “all of their teachers fault”.

I completely disagree and think fake history is a problem bigger than “just the teachers”.

syn·o·nym
noun
noun: synonym; plural noun: synonyms
a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language

======

Synonyms for fake

adj false, imitation
fictitious

======

fictitious

[fik-tish-uh s]
adjective
of, relating to, or consisting of fiction; imaginatively produced or set forth; created by the imagination: a fictitious hero.

======

fiction

[fik-shuh n]
noun

1. the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form.
2. works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.
3. something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.

======

Fiction is any story or setting that is derived from imagination—in other words, not based strictly on history or fact.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

syn·o·nym
noun
noun: synonym; plural noun: synonyms
a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language

======

Synonyms for fake

adj false, imitation
fictitious

======

fictitious

[fik-tish-uh s]
adjective
of, relating to, or consisting of fiction; imaginatively produced or set forth; created by the imagination: a fictitious hero.

======

fiction

[fik-shuh n]
noun

1. the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form.
2. works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.
3. something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.

======

Fiction is any story or setting that is derived from imagination—in other words, not based strictly on history or fact.

I have a problem with fake history in Disney films as well. I take it you don’t.

I say as a teacher, you put far too much faith in our education systems.

 

[syz]

I have a problem with fake history in Disney films as well. I take it you don’t.

I say as a teacher, you put far too much faith in our education systems.

I put very little faith in our education systems.

Not the fiction's fault. Fiction is allowed to be problematic (though, again, I'm failing to see how the Battlefield stuff actually is outside of pedantic "but it's not 100% accurate.")

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I put very little faith in our education systems. They let people like you in.

Again, not the fiction's fault.

I’m taking the stance as a historian and teacher that fake history can be dangerous. People will immediately use it to push agendas. I also know as a teacher that history and social studies at large are being pushed to the side in order to make way for things like maths, sciences, and technology. You’re just blaming it on history teachers, when really they’re the ignored voices screaming for a bigger role in education.

You seem awfully angry for what I see as an unemotional conversation. Your opinion seems far more formed from anger than rational thought. I fully expect vitriol and hatred as your response.

 

[syz]

I’m taking the stance as a historian and teacher that fake history can be dangerous. People will immediately use it to push agendas. I also know as a teacher that history and social studies at large are being pushed to the side in order to make way for things like maths, sciences, and technology. You’re just blaming it on history teachers, when really they’re the ignored voices screaming for a bigger role in education.

You seem awfully angry for what I see as an unemotional conversation. Your opinion seems far more formed from anger than rational thought. I fully expect vitriol and hatred as your response.

Let's not just limit it to history teachers. Like I said, there's a laundry list at work here: teachers, parents, language arts curriculum (i.e.: a lack of literary theory prior to post-secondary, and even then only for those who actively seek it out), a lack of classes in logic and ethics in any capacity until post-secondary (and even then only for those who actively seek them out.) Many things at play that make it so that it's not surprising that some people end up lacking the ability to recognize fiction as fiction, or to identify how any given art may or may not be compromised in some capacity.

The barrier to entry for any propaganda to function (though, again, this word is a Hail Mary wrt what's going on with Battlefield) is ignorance. So, again, I ask: why is it more reasonable to expect an M rated game to compensate for the ignorance any kids may have, in the place of any of the things above, particularly when the liberties that are being taken are so utterly benign?

Also, trust me, there's a Jordan Peterson thread on the politics board. We're all well aware of how people can take fiction and use it to try and force an agenda, and how some people can even come to believe it to be true when they lack the capacity to identify how the fiction being used is compromised. Female character models in your army game ain't that.

Also for the also, apologies for the shot. I know the odds are against anybody teaching in the humanities at any level, as somebody who came out of them myself.

 

[John Price]

Fake history is all around you. Look at all them movies. "Based on a true story." "INSPIRED by real life events."

Like The Patriot when @Darren Peng said the British didn't really burn down that barn

Entertainment mediums like movies and TV have exaggerated and embellished historical detail for years.

 

[tacogeoff]

Wait.

Is BF V a history textbook ? or is it a video game?

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

This thread man... .

 

[syz]

Fake history is all around you. Look at all them movies. "Based on a true story." "INSPIRED by real life events."

Like The Patriot when @Darren Peng said the British didn't really burn down that barn

Entertainment mediums like movies and TV have exaggerated and embellished historical detail for years.

Real history is perilous enough. Holistically we don't have as trustworthy a grasp on it as some seem to think, but I digress.

 

[Commander Clueless]

.....We are still talking about the video game, right?


Quick @XX, save us with more alpha information!

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Wait.

Is BF V a history textbook ? or is it a video game?

So is there a line for you? If it was a ww2 game teaching that the holocaust was fake, and the kids playing it seemed to be influenced by it, you’d still say “this is a game, not a textbook!”?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Let's not just limit it to history teachers. Like I said, there's a laundry list at work here: teachers, parents, language arts curriculum (i.e.: a lack of literary theory prior to post-secondary, and even then only for those who actively seek it out), a lack of classes in logic and ethics in any capacity until post-secondary (and even then only for those who actively seek them out.) Many things at play that make it so that it's not surprising that some people end up lacking the ability to recognize fiction as fiction, or to identify how any given art may or may not be compromised in some capacity.

The barrier to entry for any propaganda to function (though, again, this word is a Hail Mary wrt what's going on with Battlefield) is ignorance. So, again, I ask: why is it more reasonable to expect an M rated game to compensate for the ignorance any kids may have, in the place of any of the things above, particularly when the liberties that are being taken are so utterly benign?

Also, trust me, there's a Jordan Peterson thread on the politics board. We're all well aware of how people can take fiction and use it to try and force an agenda, and how some people can even come to believe it to be true when they lack the capacity to identify how the fiction being used is compromised. Female character models in your army game ain't that.

Also for the also, apologies for the shot. I know the odds are against anybody teaching in the humanities at any level, as somebody who came out of them myself.

I started in this thread by saying that I had a whole bunch of students who knew nothing of history who became somewhat knowledgeable when it came to ww1. They knew about the assassinaion of Ferdinand, the Schlieffen plan, trench warfare, and even the treaty of Versailles. When I asked them about it, they all laughed and said “Battlefield 1”. To be honest, I was impressed.

But I’m now using that as an example of how much these kids retained the history they learned in these games.

So it’s dangerous, in my opinion, for these games to present fake history as real history. It doesn’t matter if it’s something as trivial as fake female soldiers. Altering social history is where it’s starting to get dangerous and is where I would draw a line. Something as trivial as sniper rifles having more range, or tanks being “easy to operate” aren’t an alteration of social history and as suc, I don’t believe cross a line.

I’ll also add that I think it would be neat that if you wanted to play a female soldier, you had to be a Russian. It would be a neat little historically accurate aspect.

We all agree a line should be there somewhere. We’re just disagreeing on where it should be drawn.

 

[Osprey]

I don't think this has anything to do with agendas in the game and more about the game looking "meh". I definitely won't be buying it and it has nothing to do with the political argument above. The game just looks boring, but it might not be bad and could be more of the EA's marketing team dropping the ball here.

I think that the two (agendas and the game looking "meh") have a lot to do with one another. If you look at the very first trailer, it's clear that DICE and EA prioritized inclusion and personalization over authenticity. Instead of being filled with scenes that evoked World War II, like CoD: WWII's trailer did, it focused on a girl with a ponytail and a mechanical arm. Even the scenes without her didn't look much like WWII. Quite a few even looked more like Vietnam to me. The world's very first impression of the game was that it looked like a shooter set in a generic war in an unspecified era. It's no wonder that it seems "meh" to a lot of people. Perhaps it's not that and actually does feel like WWII when you play it, but that doesn't excuse the really poor marketing that turned so many off at the start.

EA should've done what Activision did with CoD: WWII, IMO, and initially marketed the game around an authentic, historical experience to excite their base fans. They could've then followed it with details about personalization options and such that might draw in more casual fans, again, as Activision did. Instead, they led the marketing with the casual draws and made it look more like a character-based Fortnite wannabe in a semi-historical setting, rather than what fans expect from the franchise.

 

[syz]

So it’s dangerous, in my opinion, for these games to present fake history as real history.

I can't find any evidence to suggest that this is actually what's happening? Like, if Battlefield V opens with a line of text that says "We have gone to great lengths to ensure that this game as historically accurate as possible" instead of the typical "this is a work of fiction, all likenesses are coincidental etc." line then, okay, maybe we should call them on that?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I can't find any evidence to suggest that this is actually what's happening? Like, if Battlefield V opens with a line of text that says "We have gone to great lengths to ensure that this game as historically accurate as possible" instead of the typical "this is a work of fiction, all likenesses are coincidental etc." line then, okay, maybe we should call them on that?

Me “the kids are influenced by these games.”

You “they shouldn’t be”

Me “but they ARE”

You “but they shouldn’t be”

Rinse and repeat

 

[syz]

Me “the kids are influenced by these games.”

You “they shouldn’t be”

Me “but they ARE”

You “but they shouldn’t be”

Rinse and repeat

Solution: be like Persona 5 and not let players get past the title screen unless they admit that fiction isn't real. Remember when some Reddit dork got mad at this?



I'd also like to point out that any repetition that's occurring is mainly a result of your inability to enumerate to anybody here how kids being influenced by a) a game, and b) a game that they aren't old enough to purchase, is the fault of the game or it's creators, seemingly no matter how many times I ask the question.

 

[Osprey]

We all agree a line should be there somewhere. We’re just disagreeing on where it should be drawn.

I made that argument yesterday and was called a sexist for it. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of people nowadays who think that you're bigoted if you draw a line anywhere except at the extreme end of the scale that they do. Even if it's a moderate opinion that you've put a lot of careful thought into, you're treated as though you're no better than folks at the other extreme (with the actual bigoted people). It makes it pretty hard to have any productive dialogue on social issues these days (which is probably the intention, to compel conformity rather than debate).

 

[tacogeoff]

So is there a line for you? If it was a ww2 game teaching that the holocaust was fake, and the kids playing it seemed to be influenced by it, you’d still say “this is a game, not a textbook!”?

lol talk about taking it from about a 10 to a 7000. Your example is a bit absurd.

kids learn their history in school just like we did. They can also learn more in-depth history through post secondary education if they wish to do so.

Im just saying it is more or less a fictional video game and not an exact replica of history which is ok.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Solution: be like Persona 5 and not let players get past the title screen unless they admit that fiction isn't real. Remember when some Reddit dork got mad at this?



I'd also like to point out that any repetition that's occurring is mainly a result of your inability to enumerate to anybody here how kids being influenced by a) a game, and b) a game that they aren't old enough to purchase, is the fault of the game or it's creators, seemingly no matter how many times I ask the question.

But then what about all the real history they include in these games? If they gave a “this is all fiction” warning before battlefield 1, wouldn’t kids think the assassinaion of archduke Ferdinand was fake?

We all know kids are playing these games. We all know they include a lot of real history. Would it be that difficult for them to just not add fake history?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

lol talk about taking it from about a 10 to a 7000. Your example is a bit absurd.

kids learn their history in school just like we did. They can also learn more in-depth history through post secondary education if they wish to do so.

Im just saying it is more or less a fictional video game and not an exact replica of history which is ok.

I used holocaust denial intentionally as an extreme in order to make the point that we all draw a line somewhere when it comes to altering history. We just disagree on where that line should be.

So it seems you’d be against the game denying the holocaust. In other words, as long as history is altered when it fits YOUR narrative, that’s ok. But only when it fits YOUR narrative.

Making a historical game without the “historical” part seems a bit silly to me.

 

[syz]

If they gave a “this is all fiction” warning before battlefield 1, wouldn’t kids think the assassinaion of archduke Ferdinand was fake?

If only there were people whose job it was to tell them otherwise.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If only there were people whose job it was to tell them otherwise.

Unfortunately, those jobs are all slowly disappearing. But hey... at least we have all that accurate history of movies and video games to influence the youth.

 

[syz]

Unfortunately, those jobs are all slowly disappearing.

If only every child in the civilized world had some sort of device that connected them to a repository of human history and knowledge with which they could use to investigate the facts surrounding something as thoroughly documented as a World War.

 

[XX]

.....We are still talking about the video game, right?


Quick @XX, save us with more alpha information!

The alpha was several months behind the beta build. The devs have been actively seeking out feedback on other forums which is refreshing including personally talking to me. The game itself is fun, which is what will matter most in the end.