Barzal vs. Matthews

[BayStreetBully]

I wouldn’t understimate Barzal. He would make a fine #3 center on the Leafs.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Matthew Barzal first rookie since Malkin to score 85 points as a rookie.
He’s a very special player.

I’d take Matthews by a hair as I think he can put up a similar season to Barzal if he stayed healthy last year. And then Barzal as the second best centre on both teams after next year.
Tavares has the edge for next year but longer term it’s Barzal. A really underrated player on HF Boards. Probably because he was a lower pick compared to Matthews and Tavares who were first overalls and had way more hype.

 

[Kamiccolo]

I think that in general, playmaking F2 type centers tend to have a bigger effect on success than goal scoring F3 type centers. For that reason, I’m taking Barzal.

These players are very very close. There is nothing wrong with taking either one of them. Barzal is only 4 months older, but Matthews already has proven this over two seasons, Barzal has a better career PPG than Matthews in either of his seasons, Matthews is the best ESG scorer in the NHL as a 19-20 year old, Barzal has 85 points but Matthews has never hit 70. They’re pretty much even at this point but I just like the playmaking center more than the goal scoring center.

What do you mean F2 and F3? Am I being sensitive or are you trying to say that Barzal was the #2 C on his team and Matthews was the #3?

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I think that in general, playmaking F2 type centers tend to have a bigger effect on success than goal scoring F3 type centers. For that reason, I’m taking Barzal.

These players are very very close. There is nothing wrong with taking either one of them. Barzal is only 4 months older, but Matthews already has proven this over two seasons, Barzal has a better career PPG than Matthews in either of his seasons, Matthews is the best ESG scorer in the NHL as a 19-20 year old, Barzal has 85 points but Matthews has never hit 70. They’re pretty much even at this point but I just like the playmaking center more than the goal scoring center.

Really good post. I’d take Matthews by just a bit but I think you’ve laid out a good reasonable case for Barzal. Tough call for sure.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

What do you mean F2 and F3? Am I being sensitive or are you trying to say that Barzal was the #2 C on his team and Matthews was the #3?

F1 generally refers to a power forward or forechecker who is first to the zone and strong along the boards. They very rarely play center.

F2 generally refers to a playmaker who tends to be the second to enter the offensive zone.

F3 generally refers to a goal scorer who can score from a distance and tends to be the 3rd into the zone.

F1s are players like Evander Kane, Timo Meier, and Tomas Hertl; these are strong players who get a lot of shots and iHDCF, always carrying a high xGF, but they don’t always score that much. F2s are playmakers like Mathew Barzal and Mitch Marner who are very creative and hang onto the puck well. F3s are guys like Logan Couture and William Karlsson who don’t necessarily have the highest xGF or iHDCF but they score a lot of goals because they find open areas in the upper slot and capitalize on their chances.

In general, the majority of strong, dominant, “stronger than the sum of their parts” lines that we’ve seen tend to have a clear F1, F2, and F3.

Hockey 101: Basic Offensive Zone Structure

 

[Kamiccolo]

F1 generally refers to a power forward or forechecker who is first to the zone and strong along the boards. They very rarely play center.

F2 generally refers to a playmaker who tends to be the second to enter the offensive zone.

F3 generally refers to a goal scorer who can score from a distance and tends to be the 3rd into the zone.

F1s are players like Evander Kane, Timo Meier, and Tomas Hertl; these are strong players who get a lot of shots and iHDCF, always carrying a high xGF, but they don’t always score that much. F2s are playmakers like Mathew Barzal and Mitch Marner who are very creative and hang onto the puck well. F3s are guys like Logan Couture and William Karlsson who don’t necessarily have the highest xGF or iHDCF but they score a lot of goals because they find open areas in the upper slot and capitalize on their chances.

In general, the majority of strong, dominant, “stronger than the sum of their parts” lines that we’ve seen tend to have a clear F1, F2, and F3.

Hockey 101: Basic Offensive Zone Structure

Ok but Matthews isn't a F3 by that definition.. He has HUGE xGF and iHDCF and hangs onto the puck, getting close to the net and he scored most of his goals right in the crease.

That's his goals

That's his shots.

On top of that he is one of the best at the boards at winning puck battles in the NHL. He just doesn't fit the description you gave.

I just really feel like Matthews is seen as "over rated" because people talk about him, but every time you push people such as yourself, it becomes clear they have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[Knies iT]

I know right! Barzal easily.

Barzal in his rookie season has outscored Matthews' best season by 16 points

As of right now this is barzal until proven otherwise.

In Matthews' D+1, as an 18 year old, he scored 40 goals and 69 points, winning the Calder and propelling his team to the playoffs for the first time (full-season) in over a decade.

What was Barzal doing in his D+1? Playing in the WHL. What about his D+2 though? Oh, yeah, playing in the WHL. This past season he was a 20/21 year old, sheltered rookie who you're comparing to a teenage Matthews, and despite going PPG behind Tavares, avoiding top match-ups, his team still missed the playoffs.

This same old song and dance happens every year and its comical. "Strome > Marner" "Brady Skjei > Rielly" "Aho > Marner" "Boeser > Matthews" etc. etc. It's as if the Leafs are the pinnacle, gold standard for every other team's best players to be compared to.

Barzal he's already better and he will play more games too. Doesn't appear to be a bandaid.

He's no McDavid, whose missed more games in his career to injury than Barzal and Matthews combined.

 

[Yasuo]

Both were the same age last year. Barzal is like 5 months older lol

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Ok but Matthews isn't a F3 by that definition.. He has HUGE xGF and iHDCF and hangs onto the puck, getting close to the net and he scored most of his goals right in the crease.

That's his goals

That's his shots.

I just really feel like Matthews is seen as "over rated" because people talk about him, but every time you push people such as yourself, it becomes clear they have no idea what they are talking about.

Matthew is still an F3. Zach Hyman is clearly the F1 on his line. Hyman was 7th in the NHL with 94 iHDCF at 5V5. He is the F1 on that line. Hyman had more iHDCF per game and more iHDCF/60 at 5V5 than Matthews as well. Matthews is one of the best goal scorers in the NHL, so it’s no shock that his iHDCF and iXGF numbers are still strong, but he is the F3 on his line.

Plus, stats like iHDCF and iXGF don’t guarantee that one player is a certain type of player. It was just an example that I used when naming players that I know pretty well. The iHDCF thing just so happens to check out when it comes to Matthews and Hyman and Hyman being the F1 with his higher iHDCF despite being a significantly inferior player, but it doesn’t always mean that.

You’re the one who has no idea what you’re talking about. You literally did not know what the F1/F2/F3 system was now so please don’t come at me like that.

 

[Woll Smoth]

Both were the same age last year. Barzal is like 5 months older lol

Interesting. The advantage only appears at 7+ months.

 

[Cotton]

Barzal is now their 1C, not only will teams have a book on him in year two, but he’ll be facing the oppositions top D and C’s.

If he’s on Matthews level it’ll become apparent or not soon enough. (FYI - Matthews got selke votes and 40 goals as a rookie 1C).

 

[Yasuo]

Barzal is now their 1C, not only will teams have a book on him in year two, but he’ll be facing the oppositions top D and C’s.

If he’s on Matthews level it’ll become apparent or not soon enough. (FYI - Matthews got selke votes and 40 goals as a rookie 1C).

And 69 points

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Auston

 

[Holymakinaw]

I wouldn’t understimate Barzal. He would make a fine #3 center on the Leafs.

Start a "Barzal vs. Kadri" poll.

 

[Incognito]

Barzal is great, but this is clearly Matthews. If Auston hadn't been hurt for twenty games last year, he would have had a 40+ goal, 80+ point season and this poll wouldn't exist.

 

[Cotton]

And 69 points

19, and didn’t have a Tavares to shelter him.

 

[KlefDown]

19, and didn’t have a Tavares to shelter him.

at times it seemed like he was the one sheltering Tavares.

 

[Cotton]

at times it seemed like he was the one sheltering Tavares.

Yeah, as of Sunday i’m sure you believe that.

 

[M2Beezy]

Clearly Barzal AINEC but unfortunately some fans will always vote for THEIR guy which destroys these polls

 

[KlefDown]

Yeah, as of Sunday i’m sure you believe that.

as of always actually. It was covered multiple times throughout last season how Barzal was helping Tavares.

but of course, keep playing victim like all leafs fans do.
If Matthews put up 85 points in his rookie year, we'd never hear the end of it.

 

[Cotton]

as of always actually. It was covered multiple times throughout last season how Barzal was helping Tavares.

but of course, keep playing victim like all leafs fans do.
If Matthews put up 85 points in his rookie year, we'd never hear the end of it.

*When someone is wrong, but you are so board of them you have no energy to smack down their nonsense.

 

[KlefDown]

*When someone is wrong, but you are so board of them you have no energy to smack down their nonsense.

*bored

 

[Future]

Matthews and it won't be close going forward. He is a generational talent and he's 3+ inches taller, 30lbs heavier. Haven't seen a centre this good in every aspect of the game score goals like he does in a long long time.

 

[ManofSteel55]

I'm saying Matthews right now, and I don't think its close. Even if Barzal comes close to Matthews offensively, he is light years behind as a two way player.

 

[HabsTown]

Matthews and it won't be close going forward. He is a generational talent and he's 3+ inches taller, 30lbs heavier. Haven't seen a centre this good in every aspect of the game score goals like he does in a long long time.

I take Matthews too... but can we stop with the generational talent please? Matthews isn't close to ''generational''. This word is thrown a whole lot more than it should. Tremendous young player though.